How to become the LDS President

[Stargazer]

Yes, the title of this thread isn't really what it's about, but I couldn't resist. 

A "famous" YouTuber, C.G.P. Grey, once created a video about "How to Become Pope", which I found to be nicely informative. Our resident Catholics, @MiserereNobis and @3DOP might find that interesting. I later thought to myself how about someone (like me) make a video on "How to Become President of the LDS Church", along the same line? Wouldn't that be fun! Anyway, part of my ruminations for the video included trying to work out a "cursus honorum" or "career path" for becoming president of the church. Except there really isn't one, at least, not like there is for becoming Pope.

And when @Navidad asked a question in a now-closed thread about whether all members of the Q12 had served as bishops, I answered that 9 had done so, but 3 had not. I then thought, hey why not make a chart showing the various important callings/leadership positions the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve had served in before being called as General Authorities. The following chart is the result. I included each man's profession just for completeness. I was going to post it in the now-closed thread, but of course that was no longer possible. 

Something I found interesting was that none of the current First Presidency has served as a full-time missionary and only President Eyring has served as a bishop. And neither did Elder Uchtdorf serve a full-time mission or as a bishop before he was a General Authority. In all four cases, these men were of the age to serve as FTMs around the time during/after WW2 or the Korean War, when things were rather unsettled, so that was likely why not. In particular, President Oaks was a soldier in the Utah National Guard during the Korean War, and the threat of being called up made him unable to serve as a FTM.

If there were a "career path" for becoming President of the Church, I don't see one. 

[JLHPROF]

Well being family or marrying into family of previous leadership always seemed to help.  At least it used to.

Edited December 23, 2021 by JLHPROF

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, the title of this thread isn't really what it's about, but I couldn't resist. 

A "famous" YouTuber, C.G.P. Grey, once created a video about "How to Become Pope", which I found to be nicely informative. Our resident Catholics, @MiserereNobis and @3DOP might find that interesting. I later thought to myself how about someone (like me) make a video on "How to Become President of the LDS Church", along the same line? Wouldn't that be fun! Anyway, part of my ruminations for the video included trying to work out a "cursus honorum" or "career path" for becoming president of the church. Except there really isn't one, at least, not like there is for becoming Pope.

And when @Navidad asked a question in a now-closed thread about whether all members of the Q12 had served as bishops, I answered that 9 had done so, but 3 had not. I then thought, hey why not make a chart showing the various important callings/leadership positions the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve had served in before being called as General Authorities. The following chart is the result. I included each man's profession just for completeness. I was going to post it in the now-closed thread, but of course that was no longer possible. 

Something I found interesting was that none of the current First Presidency has served as a full-time missionary and only President Eyring has served as a bishop. And neither did Elder Uchtdorf serve a full-time mission or as a bishop before he was a General Authority. In all four cases, these men were of the age to serve as FTMs around the time during/after WW2 or the Korean War, when things were rather unsettled, so that was likely why not. In particular, President Oaks was a soldier in the Utah National Guard during the Korean War, and the threat of being called up made him unable to serve as a FTM.

If there were a "career path" for becoming President of the Church, I don't see one. 

Like Pres Monson, Elder Uchtdorf served in the military -- he was a fighter pilot in the German Air Force -- which is likely why they didn't serve LDS missions.  Dr Nelson was in the Army Medical Corps during the Korean War, and he served in Korea.  That and marriage can prevent serving a mission early on.  Anyhow, none of these guys thought they were on a General Authority career path.  They were just busy living their lives.

[Stargazer]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Like Pres Monson, Elder Uchtdorf served in the military -- he was a fighter pilot in the German Air Force -- which is likely why they didn't serve LDS missions.  Dr Nelson was in the Army Medical Corps during the Korean War, and he served in Korea.  That and marriage can prevent serving a mission early on.  Anyhow, none of these guys thought they were on a General Authority career path.  They were just busy living their lives.

So are we all.

I am so glad the LDS church does not have a professional clergy.

[Robert F. Smith]

Just now, Stargazer said:

So are we all.

I am so glad the LDS church does not have a professional clergy.

So you would prefer not to see an LDS college of cardinals voting on the next "Pope"?

[strappinglad]

1. Serve in a leadership position

2. Be known by a GA

3. Be called as an apostle at a young age

4. Live a very long life free of major sin.

5. Be on the " Lord's side " whoooo

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If there were a "career path" for becoming President of the Church, I don't see one. 

I'm pretty sure that a person's motive to be on a "career path" to become the President of the Church would disqualify the person from such a position.  

[MiserereNobis]

When I applied to college, they asked for my choice of major. I put “pope” but then I received a letter saying there was no such major. So I chose English and philosophy instead. Bummer! 😉

Seriously now, we don’t hold our clergy, including the Pope, infallible. There are bad popes and many popes that aren’t sainted. St. John Chrysostom famously said: “The road to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path.”

You may think that a cop out, but I think it is a real and practical acknowledgment that clergy are flawed, as are we all.

 I appreciate the incredible priests and monks who have helped me on my spiritual journey, especially the monks. God bless the contemplative monks who have shared so much with me, including their flaws.

ETA: the pope is the bishop of Rome

Edited December 24, 2021 by MiserereNobis

[LoudmouthMormon]

Uh-oh.  I didn't go on a mission - I had always assumed that knocked me out of the running to be president of the church.

Whelp, y'all better treat me nice, or I'll rain down punitive fire once it's official.  I'll make one entire general conference with only speakers who knew each of you as primary brats, and they'll spill all the beans!

 

Seriously though, this is fascinating stuff - thanks @Stargazer!

Edited December 24, 2021 by LoudmouthMormon

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

1. Serve in a leadership position

2. Be known by a GA

3. Be called as an apostle at a young age

4. Live a very long life free of major sin.

5. Be on the " Lord's side " whoooo

Be a male. 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, katherine the great said:

Be a male. 

Seems so. 

First. The (Irvingite) church was organized by women, and God placed in the Church (first apostles, secondarily prophets,) and not first women; but Mr. Irving placed in his church first women (secondarily apostles,) and the church was founded and organized by them. A woman has no right to found or organize a church--God never sent them to do it. - Joseph Smith

[katherine the great]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Seems so. 

Just stating the obvious. 

[strappinglad]

51 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Just stating the obvious.

That goes without saying ! 😇

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, strappinglad said:

1. Serve in a leadership position

2. Be known by a GA

3. Be called as an apostle at a young age

4. Live a very long life free of major sin.

5. Be on the " Lord's side " whoooo

Don't forget being born into the right family.  

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

When I applied to college, they asked for my choice of major. I put “pope” but then I received a letter saying there was no such major. So I chose English and philosophy instead. Bummer! 😉

Thanks for the first laugh of my day!

By the way, there are two addenda to the original video: 

• Footnote * from How to Become Pope
• Footnote ‡ from How to Become Pope

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Seriously now, we don’t hold our clergy, including the Pope, infallible. There are bad popes and many popes that aren’t sainted. St. John Chrysostom famously said: “The road to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path.”

You may think that a cop out, but I think it is a real and practical acknowledgment that clergy are flawed, as are we all.

 I appreciate the incredible priests and monks who have helped me on my spiritual journey, especially the monks. God bless the contemplative monks who have shared so much with me, including their flaws.

Are you trying to refute a point that hasn't been made so far?  Or anticipating it?

Of course, with a long, long history, there are bound to be a fair number of rascals in amongst the good fellas. I think we all understand that.

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

ETA: the pope is the bishop of Rome

Yep. He's also the King of Vatican City! Or, so says CGP Grey again: Vatican City Explained

However, as another fine YouTuber points out, CGP Grey is wrong, the Pope's official ruler title is Sovereign, not King: Why CGP Grey is Wrong | Monarchical Terminology

 

[JustAnAustralian]

Well could always convert the Pope and then have the Stake President of Rome call him as an LDS bishop.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Don't forget being born into the right family.  

This is vastly overstated.

The idea that the Brethren are eagerly making sure second and third cousins get prime leadership positions is silly.

 

Used to be the path involved a UK mission. Sadly I think that credential is fading away so my dreams of apostleship are bursting like soap bubbles.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

You may think that a cop out, but I think it is a real and practical acknowledgment that clergy are flawed, as are we all.

I don’t see it as a cop out given we often make the same comment about our own clergy.  
 

Do you have any traditions about if God will step in before allowing a pope to destroy the Church or God otherwise protecting the Church from itself, so to speak?

Edited December 24, 2021 by Calm

[Navidad]

I find it very interesting that four and five never served a full-time mission or served as a pastor-bishop. I also find the comments about being glad that the church does not have professional clergy very interesting. I don't understand that considering that the vast majority of folks on this forum have never been a professional clergy and therefore cannot possibly personally know what it is like being one or the spouse of one. Probably most have never been served by a professional clergy either, so can't possibly know what that is like either.

Am I the only person who has served as a professional (paid) clergy/pastor active on the forum right now? Could simple bias or the presence of "this is how we do it" be the cause of the opposition? Perhaps the use of the old and terrible word -  "priestcraft" - which is still found defined and illustrated on churchofjesuschrist.org guide to the scriptures page, could that be the reason? The idea that "Gentiles shall be filled with "all manner of priestcrafts?" or the Alma quote about "this people" being led to destruction by priestcraft? This epithet is one reason I have never seriously considered joining the LDS church. My family and I sacrificed much to be a full-time pastor. I made very personal covenants to God about being ordained a faithful minister. To be considered an ally of Lucifer is very hurtful.

Anyway, I appreciate the chart. I find that very informative. Thanks to Stargazer for posting it. Best to all.

 

[3DOP]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I find it very interesting that four and five never served a full-time mission or served as a pastor-bishop. I also find the comments about being glad that the church does not have professional clergy very interesting. I don't understand that considering that the vast majority of folks on this forum have never been a professional clergy and therefore cannot possibly personally know what it is like being one or the spouse of one. Probably most have never been served by a professional clergy either, so can't possibly know what that is like either.

Am I the only person who has served as a professional (paid) clergy/pastor active on the forum right now? Could simple bias or the presence of "this is how we do it" be the cause of the opposition? Perhaps the use of the old and terrible word -  "priestcraft" - which is still found defined and illustrated on churchofjesuschrist.org guide to the scriptures page, could that be the reason? The idea that "Gentiles shall be filled with "all manner of priestcrafts?" or the Alma quote about "this people" being led to destruction by priestcraft? This epithet is one reason I have never seriously considered joining the LDS church. My family and I sacrificed much to be a full-time pastor. I made very personal covenants to God about being ordained a faithful minister. To be considered an ally of Lucifer is very hurtful.

Anyway, I appreciate the chart. I find that very informative. Thanks to Stargazer for posting it. Best to all.

 

Hi Navidad. 

I think I probably qualify as a formerly professional/paid clergy as most LDS would understand it, along with you. 

From my current perspective...I would not now claim to have been a cleric. But I did receive money for being an unordained, and from the LDS and Catholic point of view, unauthorized minister of the Gospel. 

I agree with you against the LDS, if you are defending the idea of ordained ministers being supported financially by their flocks. But I do not claim to have been an ordained minister. I think that only the one true church can ordain true ministers. If it is the LDS, they need to be married, and make their own living. If Catholic, unmarried, and be minimally supported. If from some sect that doesn't claim exclusive authority? 

Navidad...You try to go LDS, but you are not, and apparently will never go all the way. I am glad for that! But...as a Catholic, rejecting all LDS claims to authority, I am closer to being LDS than you, without trying. Heh.

Navidad...do not be upset with me. Our backgrounds are the same. My former heroes are yours. God love you, and bless you.  But you retain a belief in an invisible church without a visible structure. Along with LDS, I, as a Catholic, believe that there is a visible structure. 

Anyway, Iet us be friends at this season, and try to understand each other.

Merry, merry Christmas to you, Navidad, and to our LDS friends.

3DOP

 

 

 

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Uh-oh.  I didn't go on a mission - I had always assumed that knocked me out of the running to be president of the church.

Whelp, y'all better treat me nice, or I'll rain down punitive fire once it's official.  I'll make one entire general conference with only speakers who knew each of you as primary brats, and they'll spill all the beans!

 

Seriously though, this is fascinating stuff - thanks @Stargazer!

You're welcome, but don't make too much noise about becoming president of the church, or you'll be in direct conflict with ProphetShiloh, who seems to have received his calling to that already.

[Duncan]

It's the proximity principle at play. 9/10's of the First Presidency and Q12 are buddy buddies or related to someone else. Both Elders Gong and Renlund's FIL were prior GA's. I saw a photo of Pres. Hinckley at Elder Gong's wedding. Pres. Monson liked Canadians so it was no wonder then that Elder Merlin Lybbert's son in law got called to be an Apostle by Pres. Monson. You call people you know and don't call people you don't know. Elder Bednar was the BYUI President so he was known to the brethren. Pres. Hugh B. Brown worked in a law office with J. Reuben Clark Jr. and Albert E. Bowen so when new appointees come up of course they would think of someone they know and worked with so why not Pres. Brown and Elder Bowen? They wouldn't call their dumpy neighbor they hardly know or don't like. 

[BRMC]

13 minutes ago, Duncan said:

They wouldn't call their dumpy neighbor they hardly know or don't like. 

They would if God chose him.

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, BRMC said:

They would if God chose him.

remains to be seen

[MustardSeed]

8 minutes ago, BRMC said:

They would if God chose him.

Has that happened? Where an absolute unknown was called?