“The Elder’s Quorum is not a moving company”

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

that I can't bear to get rid of in case I find socks. They are the whole family's missing socks from 20 or so years ago

Oh yes.  I was going to say just 15 for me, but 2003 is closer to 20, lol.

And then I have a rag bag, but never use rags.  

Edited November 14, 2021 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, Fether said:

I have never understood this like of thinking. Where does it come from??

Service is service? Are we supposed to offer up service to unless it’s service we determine to be not our responsibility?

Im the service coordinator in my ward and it is a nightmare trying to get people to help with moves. This is doubly problematic because when someone is moving into your area and they need help, what a awful way to say “welcome to the ward” by not coming to help move?

Sounds like a lack of leadership and of the Spirit in your ward.  This will kill the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints quicker than anything.

[bluebell]

20 hours ago, cfi said:

I rarely post, but the Elder's Quorum Moving Company is one of my pet peeves...

bluebell posted a much better reply while I was working on mine, so I'll give a hearty "second" to everything she wrote, with only a few additional thoughts.

The Elder's Quorum Moving Company is contrary to the gospel principle of self-reliance. Members should not expect free labor from other members, especially if they can afford to hire that labor themselves. Time is limited, and time with your family is sacred. Asking others to take time away from their families to serve you is a serious thing, and should not be taken lightly.

In the dozens of wards I've lived in across many different states over many years, I have never seen a move request more than a week in advance, with most coming by email only a day or two ahead of time. I have even seen multiple cases of families showing up in a new ward with a loaded moving truck, expecting the EQ to show up that very day to help them move in, without even a courtesy call to the Bishop or EQ President in advance. In almost every case, the families asking for help were perfectly capable of hiring a moving company, but they wanted free labor instead. Nothing like showing up to provide "service" to a family with two BMWs and a luxury mini-van (true story).

It is also common for these requests to result in hurt feelings. When a popular family moves, a dozen or more people show up to help. When a lesser-known family moves, few or zero show up. How does that second family feel?

I hear the exact same stories from friends and family members across the country. These problems seem to the the rule rather than the exception.

Many years ago, my stake president taught the principle of self-reliance, and required members asking for moving services to go through the process of completing a "needs and resources analysis" to demonstrate financial need. This put an immediate end to the Elder's Quorum Moving Company, while still providing assistance to members who truly needed it. Ever since, I have replied to requests for free labor by asking if the analysis had been completed. The usual response is "that's a great question" and no further follow-up
 

Smart Stake President!

[bluebell]

19 hours ago, rongo said:

To add to all that's already been said:

1) "The poor ye shall always have with you." Not just economically poor, but poor in habits and manners. It sounds nice to talk about making people do a needs analysis or fill out a moving checklist before the ward will help, but I think most know that despite these and similar measure, we will be faced with the same behavior. What do we do then? Refuse to help? Leave incompetent people to their own devices? What would Jesus do? Yes, we teach and demonstrate (and even insist on) welfare and self-reliance principles, but the reality is that despite all this we often have to help ungrateful, inconsiderate, incompetent people just the same. 'Twas always thus, and always thus will be. The poor ye shall always have with you.

We've all been in "worst case" scenarios (yucky, unsanitary moves where the packing plan is for the cavalry to stuff everything in Hefty bags). They aren't fun, and only the "same ten people" stay and help with things like that. Like with funerals and funeral dinners, these can be sacred things and the first steps towards progress and exaltation for people with a lot of room for progress and growth. And, it separates the "men from the boys" as far as who are the shining lights in our wards. It usually isn't hard to tell who the new leaders will be. They are the few cheerful, charitable, dienstbereit people who go the extra mile without complaint. They stand out, and most others don't. 

When we moved back into our ward, there was a newlywed couple. The husband is from southern India (2nd generation member), and I told my wife after a few weeks that he would soon be the ward mission leader, EQP, etc. and eventually be in a bishopric. He's now the EQP (I'm his 1st counselor). He serves everyone, greets everyone, and knows everyone, even though they are relatively new.

2) As has been noted, it's okay to tell last minute people who want to be moved midday during the week that it will have to wait until evening or Saturday when men can actually help.

3) Moving companies are extremely expensive. I don't think it's reasonable to expect many families to hire moving help. 

4) We create some of our own problems with motivating people to help. No matter how many times I've told people, they still opt for the easiest short-term route of a message on the ward Facebook page, or a text to a group. When you're talking to everyone, you're talking to no one. It's much more effective, but takes a little more effort on the front end, to directly ask people one-on-one (it's harder to say no). Group messages about inconvenient moves are easily ignored. 

5) With the possible exception of @Duncan, my boys and I have probably done more moves than anyone. The Church/the quorums shouldn't be taken for granted as de facto movers, but we really do have a tremendous blessing of community in the Church that most other people don't. As we've helped non-members move, I've often wondered what other people who don't have family or close friends or a church community do for things like this. 

I think Jesus often was inconvenienced and even "righteously" (without jeopardizing the atonement) annoyed at last minute calls for help. He knows what we feel when we are frustrated or annoyed, but He also did a better job of loving people who can sometimes be hard to love. 

I agree about moving companies and I don't expect people to hire others to help if it's a hardship.  I don't mind helping people move and I do think it's a great way to give service.  I just think too many people forget that the EQ doesn't exist to help them move.

As to the bolded, it makes me wonder, do we always have to help ungrateful, inconsiderate and incompetent people anyway?  Incompetent maybe but the ungrateful and inconsiderate ones?  

[bluebell]

18 hours ago, Fether said:

Ok, I have been thinking over this for a minute and I think I can put into clearer words my frustration and what we should change.

 

Here is what I dislike:
- The platitude "The Elder's Quorum is not a moving company."
- People expecting service to be provided for them
- Member's treating service events as mandatory
- Member's showing up to service events expecting others to be there and take care of things

The core purpose of service is to develope the christlike attribute of Charity. With it, we can include the developement of patience and willingness to sacrifice. When we serve, it ought to be out of love for others. More specifically, empathy / sympathy.

I am more than willing to help other move simply because I experienced moving 4 times in 4 years. Each of those time I have had children and we were not in a situation where we could financially provide movers to help us, and moving was always very stressful. Had we not had a large ward willing to help us move, each of those situations may have been unbearably stressful. Particularily when I moved to Vegas to work for a year, I had no idea who would be there to help. I had no friends or family there, just a single text sent to the local bishop asking for assistanc. When I arrived, there were 20 or so ward members there to help and we got all of our belongings into our home within an hour. 

When I hear that someone needs help moving, those feelings resurface and I cannot allow myself to not join in and help relieve that anxiety they may or may not be feeling.

This is what we should focus on when we seek to give service. So when I hear people make blanket statements of "The Elder's Quorum is not a moving company". it stings, because it is purely a "duty" approach, and not a "charity" approach. (Elder Oaks has an INCREDIBLE talk titled "Why Do We Serve?") It ignores the anxiety that they may be feeling in the situation, and I think if we could all experience what they are feeling, we would all willingly go help.

Now, I do NOT believe every member should be pressured or expected to show up to every service opportunity that is brought up. Rather, we should all strive for empathy / sympathy for the individual asking for help, and then offer what we can or we feel are able to. And if someone complains that there wasn't anyone there to serve them, we ought to show them increased love so that they may know your faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death (D&C 121:43-44). Likewise, when someone asks for service, it is just that, service. If no one shows up, we should be willing to do it all on our own without complaint, but use that experience to have empathy for others when those opportunities arise.

 

Couple more thoughts and questions to consider:

Matthew 25:40 - "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Is sis. Smith, who is extremely needy, doesn't take care of herself, and is partially active  not the "least of these"? How do we apply this service when it comes to people who "abuse" and "take advantage" of the good will of others?

What about when we decide, through our own judgements, that someone is taking advantage of us? Does that give us divine permission to refuse to help? Does the fact that our judgment may be flawed affect the answer at all? (Note: I am not talking about choosing not to serve because you aren't able at that time, I am talking more about actively telling yourself "so-and-so doesn't deserve service because they are taking advantage of us")

Can we expect self proclaimed saints to serve us? Is it problematic if we send out a mass text to the EQ and only the same 3 people that show up continue to show up? Is it divinely superior to not show up to serve someone who you believe is taking advantage of you?

We moved 13 times in 12 years (5 times to a different state) and never used a moving company.  This is the reason that we try to always help others move if we can.  Moving really does suck rocks and having some help can make such a huge difference.  I am so thankful for the many times that people have helped us move.

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, ksfisher said:

It also bugs me when people who don’t attend church and don’t render any service themselves expect me to move them.  That’s just someone looking for free labor.

I struggle so much with people who expect to use the resources of the community (sometimes use them a lot) without ever contributing to the community.  

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Chum said:

It really helps to have someone stand inside and direct. Some feel guilty doing that instead of hustling furniture.

Agreed.  When I wrote that I was specifically thinking of a move my husband helped with where the wife was helping unload and the husband stood in the driveway doing nothing.  He wasn't even directing boxes.  

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The worst is moving hoarders.

Oh my yes!

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I showed up to a move once where the family had packed nothing. The furniture was covered in stuff and unable to be moved. They had no boxes. They were asking those who showed up if they had a truck. I left.

Good call.  

[Nofear]

19 hours ago, rongo said:

To add to all that's already been said:

1) "The poor ye shall always have with you." Not just economically poor, but poor in habits and manners. It sounds nice to talk about making people do a needs analysis or fill out a moving checklist before the ward will help, but I think most know that despite these and similar measure, we will be faced with the same behavior. What do we do then? Refuse to help? Leave incompetent people to their own devices? What would Jesus do? Yes, we teach and demonstrate (and even insist on) welfare and self-reliance principles, but the reality is that despite all this we often have to help ungrateful, inconsiderate, incompetent people just the same. 'Twas always thus, and always thus will be. The poor ye shall always have with you.

Quite agree. Or as King Benjamin put it "Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just--" Mosiah 4:17. And, there are times when the family has brought it upon themselves. "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."

That said, like you, I also think it is also inappropriate for the Saints to knowingly take advantage of the charity of the household of God. I think it quite appropriate to ask for moving assistance but we should do many things to make it as quick, easy, and convenient as possible as we are able for those that come and help us.

 

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, poptart said:

Stuff like this is why single people can be reluctant to join orgs, religious or not.  Makes me sick how people just exploit others good nature, at the point now where in general no one cares.  

This is a big reason why a lot of protestant churches tanked, this same attitude.  A Lutheran buddy of mine was a volunteer Sunday school teacher in the 90s/2000s, same thing.  You'd have people who were never Lutheran their whole lives let alone Church going.  What do they do?  Join up and exploit away.   That was the general attitude in his old parish too, ye olde "we gotta contribute" which ended up being a few doing everything.  As a single male that's not exactly an attractive option, churches aren't always welcoming.  I mean, what do you want?  Not all of us get to grow up in comfy WASP suburbs so we're not going to assimilate into that culture so easily.  Seeing people just get exploited like that really leaves a bad taste in your mouth, especially when you see good friends who really do want to do the Christian thing just get used.

Is there anything concrete you guys do to address this?  

There is a system in place to track members suspected of ‘welfare fraud’ to give a warning if they ward hop. It is not used very often from what I have seen.

[Calm]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't think you or your husband are true hoarders, t

Someday I will take a picture for you of all my daughter’s stuffies and let you decide.  

Edited November 14, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Ginger Snaps said:

It used to be called Compassionate Service Leader and it was under the purview of the Relief Society. Fairly recent changes have occurred so that both EQ and RS can have a service coordinator (and yes, that is the title; see handbook 8.3.5).  They’re supposed to work together to take care of the service needs of the ward (22.6.2). 

Wow, chapter and verse!

Thanks. I do remember that now, but we have not implemented that in our ward, as far as I know. 🤔

[Ragerunner]

I was recently in our Elders Quorum Presidency. Our ward had a high move in and move out rate. Some times we would receive 2 to 3 request per week. 😳 
 

It simply became unsustainable to keep it up and still hope our brethren could fulfill other church callings, assignments, temple service and care for their own families.

So we layout out the following plan.

1. We created a welcome to the ward move in packet that could be email or texted to anyone that made a request for moving assistance. It included local moving company info and rates, local school and utility info, etc.

2. If you already lived in the ward and requested moving assistance the request needed to be made to the bishopric, elders quorum President to determine if their was a welfare need. If their was a welfare need the quorum took over the request and provided the service. We also would have someone from the relief society check in advance that the home was packed and ready to move when the brethren arrived.

3. If you didn’t have a welfare need and you were in the ward we gave the brethren the opportunity to make a personal request to the quorum for assistance. (Asking your friends to help.) But it was not an elders quorum activity.

4. If you were moving into the ward we would let you know we would send a text out to the brethren about a moving assistance request but we would let them know they may or may not have people show up to help. (They should have a back up plan.) If you gave us less than 24 hour notice we did nothing.
 

This did a lot for our ward. It taught the principle of self reliance and to actively take leadership of you and your family’s needs. It made sure that when we had a true welfare need, elderly, single sisters, etc. we got great turn out because the brethren knew their was a real need.

This worked but it took a few months to get members to accept this approach. We did find that some move-ins from out west seemed to struggle with this approach. Many of them felt this was the quorums responsibility, due to it being part of the church culture.
 

My personal opinion is, if you are moving into a $300,000+ house and can’t afford $400 or less to have movers help you, you might want to think through that decision.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Ragerunner

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, poptart said:

Stuff like this is why single people can be reluctant to join orgs, religious or not.  Makes me sick how people just exploit others good nature, at the point now where in general no one cares.  

This is a big reason why a lot of protestant churches tanked, this same attitude.  A Lutheran buddy of mine was a volunteer Sunday school teacher in the 90s/2000s, same thing.  You'd have people who were never Lutheran their whole lives let alone Church going.  What do they do?  Join up and exploit away.   That was the general attitude in his old parish too, ye olde "we gotta contribute" which ended up being a few doing everything.  As a single male that's not exactly an attractive option, churches aren't always welcoming.  I mean, what do you want?  Not all of us get to grow up in comfy WASP suburbs so we're not going to assimilate into that culture so easily.  Seeing people just get exploited like that really leaves a bad taste in your mouth, especially when you see good friends who really do want to do the Christian thing just get used.

Is there anything concrete you guys do to address this?  

We just ignore people. 

Just kidding! 

But it seems like a tempting option

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by mfbukowski

[rchorse]

Giving too much help can be as bad as, or even worse than, giving too little. It is often much easier for a bishop to write a check or send in the Elders Quorum to help than to help an individual or family learn self reliance. When I was a bishop, we had a big problem with people who had been living off the church for years. None of their prior bishops (mostly in other wards) had the spine to tell them no, and they had either grown to be or stayed incapable and dependent. It was amazing how quickly most of them became self reliant when they couldn't just get some easy money from the church.

Truly helping is not always just jumping in and paying for something or moving someone. That said, we didn't just cut people off with no help. We worked with them to gradually transition off of church assistance. The individual growth that happened from this was amazing to watch.

Yes, we should serve, and some people truly have no other option besides the church. They should be helped. But I think very often in the church we enable bad behavior because it makes us feel good for "serving". While you don't usually get the same warm fuzzies from telling someone to take care of their own move, sometimes that's what needs to happen to help someone truly grow.

[strappinglad]

IIRC it says , " Pray for those who despitefully use you " , not " Help move whose who despitefully use you " 

Years ago I helped move a good member with a full 2 years supply of food etc. It filled a garage with boxes ! 

As a much younger guy I helped move an upright grand piano from a basement up a narrow flight of stairs without a thought for my back. I ain't doing that any more! 

I wonder what the legal exposure is when moving someone else. Maybe smac can advise. 

[poptart]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We just ignore people. 

Just kidding! 

But it seems like a tempting option

 

 

I do that now, I've slowly started to move away from looking at people as a source of entertainment.  It's easier, save so much mental energy that way.  

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There is a system in place to track members suspected of ‘welfare fraud’ to give a warning if they ward hop. It is not used very often from what I have seen.

That would explain a few things actually.  Knew a guy at one ward who was a gatekeeper of sorts, he worked with a lot of the charity cases.   Thinking back, it really makes sense.  That and per him I was not exactly common, I worked my butt off and gave back, not a lot but from what I heard it was more than most had done.  Some of the stories I heard were people asking for help from the bishop right after baptism.  Had one housemate, she forced her son to get baptised and pretty much had the ward paying for everything.  All she did was get high/drunk with roommates while neglecting her child.  Even at DI I saw a lot of that, we'd get people in there who wouldn't raise a finger yet expected the church to foot the bill for everything.  

Pic kinda related, he did sell out in the end but before degeneracy took over king Solomon was pretty neat.

[juliann]

The women get hit up for cleaning. The last one I will ever do was a young couple who pretty much watched a few older women clean their apartment. The husband spent most of the time “buying packing boxes” because they had none. They were leaving that night.
 

The wife instructed us on what needed to be done. When she asked if I’d cleaned their toilet and tub, I finally put down my foot and said no. She asked another lady, who I had warned, who told her she would have to do those spaces by herself. 

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Someday I will take a picture for you of all my daughter’s stuffies and let you decide.  

Well, that's par for the course for girls and some boys too.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

The women get hit up for cleaning. The last one I will ever do was a young couple who pretty much watched a few older women clean their apartment. The husband spent most of the time “buying packing boxes” because they had none. They were leaving that night.
 

The wife instructed us on what needed to be done. When she asked if I’d cleaned their toilet and tub, I finally put down my foot and said no. She asked another lady, who I had warned, who told her she would have to do those spaces by herself. 

I don't mind helping someone clean or organize, especially when there is something else going on and they are overwhelmed.  But it can get to a place where it's too enabling if it goes on too long.  When they are able, people do need to take responsibility for their own space and not rely on the RS to keep it clean.

[2BizE]

The Relief Society has the slogan Charity Never Faileth.

EQ has the slogan “Charity does not include moving people”….

I served as EQ President (yes, me) for a few months shy of 5 years.  I remember organizing 29 moves one year. I called a moving specialist, who helped greatly to manage moves…

It was the least favorite part of being EQP.  Everyone called me…I think only a few times did I know about a move more than a few days in advance.

It was less fun than tracking down the more than 200 perspective elders…

[Calm]

Charity does not include enabling though, as that may harm rather than help.

It is not charity to give a diabetic child a handful of candy.  
 

To me this means to be truly charitable we must take the time to learn who a person is, which to my view is the hardest part.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Calm

[nuclearfuels]

On 11/13/2021 at 12:07 PM, Fether said:

I have never understood this like of thinking. Where does it come from??

Service is service? Are we supposed to offer up service to unless it’s service we determine to be not our responsibility?

Im the service coordinator in my ward and it is a nightmare trying to get people to help with moves. This is doubly problematic because when someone is moving into your area and they need help, what a awful way to say “welcome to the ward” by not coming to help move?

I enjoy helping people move in/out of the ward, when my schedule allows becuase:

1- exercise is good for me

2- It removes all of my desires to move

3- Most importantly, it keeps me out of the EQ / Purgatory from whence I have escaped, never to return