Apostasy is worse than murder

[Calm]

From the most recentNewsweek article:

Quote

Apostasy, former member Sam Young explains, "is the worst possible sin you can commit. Apostasy is considered worse than murder."

https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-whistleblower-denounces-brothers-media-leaks-church-responds-100-billion-tithing-1478647

Out of curiosity, wondering what views others have.  Please back up with scripture or documented church teachings it possible so as to show process of reasoning.

Me...I see the two as in different categories.

added many days later:  for those who don’t want to read the whole thread, there is a lot of repetition such that reading several pages at the beginning and then as much at the end will probably give you a good overview of the discussion. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Calm

[JAHS]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

From the most recentNewsweek article:

Quote

Apostasy, former member Sam Young explains, "is the worst possible sin you can commit. Apostasy is considered worse than murder."

https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-whistleblower-denounces-brothers-media-leaks-church-responds-100-billion-tithing-1478647

Out of curiosity, wondering what views others have.  Please back up with scripture or documented church teachings it possible so as to show process of reasoning.

Me...I see the two as in different categories.

I saw that too and was surprised they said that. It depends on how far the apostasy goes. If one simply stops believing and leaves the church that would not be worse than murder. But If one commits the so-call unpardonable sin, denying the Holy Ghost, such a sin might be as bad as murder.

The following scripture makes a connection between the two sins:
"The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, sayeth the Lord God..."(D&C 132:27)

A person who has received the new and everlasting covenant would not commit murder, and if he does it is the same as denying the Holy Ghost and would not be forgiven.
For most people Apostasy would not be worse than murder. Not sure where they got that Idea.

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

was surprised they said that.

It was Sam Young...that didn't surprise me at all.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

From the most recentNewsweek article:

https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-whistleblower-denounces-brothers-media-leaks-church-responds-100-billion-tithing-1478647

Out of curiosity, wondering what views others have.  Please back up with scripture or documented church teachings it possible so as to show process of reasoning.

Me...I see the two as in different categories.

According to D&C 76 all sins, including the sin of murder, may eventually be forgiven, the lone exception being the sin of total apostasy, which is commonly known as the unpardonable or the sin against the Holy Ghost. The following two verses may be the source the individual had in mind...

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

From the most recentNewsweek article:

https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-whistleblower-denounces-brothers-media-leaks-church-responds-100-billion-tithing-1478647

Out of curiosity, wondering what views others have.  Please back up with scripture or documented church teachings it possible so as to show process of reasoning.

Me...I see the two as in different categories.

Newsweek used to be a pretty good magazine. This is the sort of crap that has made it a sad shell of what it once was. 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

the lone exception being the sin of total apostasy, which is commonly known as the unpardonable or the sin against the Holy Ghost.

But this is not what Young or the nonmember readers will be thinking of though.

[InCognitus]

38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Newsweek used to be a pretty good magazine. This is the sort of crap that has made it a sad shell of what it once was. 

That, and the annoying ads.  I hate web sites that have ads that pop up and cover up content and stream videos constantly, causing you to dance around the distractions in order to get to the content.  The CPU usage on my laptop skyrockets every time I go to that site.  I understand that web sites need ads, but with ads like that it makes me want to get off the site as soon as possible (which is exactly what I do!)

[teddyaware]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

But this is not what Young or the nonmember readers will be thinking of though.

It’s almost impossible for me to believe he’s unaware of the fact that only total apostasy, altogether turning away from the Lord and sacred covenants, is the most deadly of sins. The fact that he didn’t make this very well know doctrinal qualification clear is evidence of intentionally trying to stir up unnecessary misunderstanding and outrage among the uninformed.

[Calm]

I agree.

[Michael Sudworth]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Out of curiosity, wondering what views others have.  Please back up with scripture or documented church teachings it possible so as to show process of reasoning.

This claim is absolute nonsense.  It is pure propoganda with no basis in fact.

The only thing close to this is a so-called "son of perdition."  But I don't know of any Church doctrine that clearly states who these folks are.  If anything, I understand that this is so rare, it barely deserves mention.

[sunstoned]

I am not sure with Sam was thinking about, but apostasy is not worse than murder.  Not even close.  You can get the electric chair for murder.  Apostasy at its worse gets you kicked out of the church (excommunicated).

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Apostasy is worse than murder...................................................

In many Muslim countries, apostasy from Islam is punishable by death.

My take on the notion of apostasy being worse than murder is that apostasy is quite common in our society, and that religious freedom gives us that right of free choice.  The question to be asked is, What about the snake-oil salesmen who actively seek to unchurch Latter-day Saints?  When they systematically lie in order to deceive the Saints, that is certainly a satanic act.

An ex-Mormon anthropologist has a deep understanding of the deception which goes on against faithful Latter-day Saints:  Manu Padro, “What does Manu Padro think about the ‘LDS Personal Faith Crisis’ report?” Quora, Aug 18, 2019 (updated), online at https://qr.ae/TSNgHw .

[Kenngo1969]

Good news: Sam Young shouldn't be considered an authority on anything.

Bad news: Newsweek's readers don't know that.   

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Good news: Sam Young shouldn't be considered an authority on anything.

Bad news: Newsweek's readers don't know that.   

Good news: If he is executed for heresy he will have only himself to blame.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Good news: If he is executed for heresy he will have only himself to blame.

[Meadowchik]

14 hours ago, teddyaware said:

According to D&C 76 all sins, including the sin of murder, may eventually be forgiven, the lone exception being the sin of total apostasy, which is commonly known as the unpardonable or the sin against the Holy Ghost. The following two verses may be the source the individual had in mind...

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)

 

Right. And it's also interesting that, as a woman, I have to assume that because I was never ordained to the Priesthood, that I'm not eligible for total apostasy. 

I remember as a faithful teen trying to explain that only Mormons can actually be total blasphemers (being the only ones with the fullness of the Gospel) to a close nonmember friend. Inadvertently through me, it became clear to him that, if one weighs the risk of judgment alone, a person is better off not getting baptised because then they cannot fully apostatize. 

 

[Traela]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Right. And it's also interesting that, as a woman, I have to assume that because I was never ordained to the Priesthood, that I'm not eligible for total apostasy. 

 

 

I suppose it depends on whether receiving temple ordinances also counts as receiving the Priesthood for women.  

[smac97]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Quote

Apostasy, former member Sam Young explains, "is the worst possible sin you can commit. Apostasy is considered worse than murder."

From the most recentNewsweek article:

https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-whistleblower-denounces-brothers-media-leaks-church-responds-100-billion-tithing-1478647

Out of curiosity, wondering what views others have.  Please back up with scripture or documented church teachings it possible so as to show process of reasoning.

Me...I see the two as in different categories.

I'm inclined to attribute Mr. Young's statement to bad faith.  I think he's saying this not because the Church teaches it, or even because he believes it, but because it is sensationalistic and makes the Church look bad.

"Apostasy" is described well here:

Quote

Latter-day Saints believe that apostasy occurs whenever an individual or community rejects the revelations and ordinances of God, changes the gospel of Jesus Christ, or rebels against the commandments of God, thereby losing the blessings of the Holy Ghost and of divine authority. 

Meanwhile, "murder" is defined and explained well, and is contrasted with the only thing "worse" than it, here:

Quote

Murder is condemned in latter-day scripture just as it is in the ten commandments and numerous other passages in both the Old and the New Testament. The Doctrine and Covenants declares that "thou shalt not kill" (D&C 42:18). The murderer "shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come" (D&C 42:18).

In LDS doctrine, murder is second in seriousness only to the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. And even that sin involves a kind of murderous treachery in that one who previously had obtained an absolute witness of Jesus' divinity (TPJS, p. 358) in effect "crucifies {Christ}" afresh or "assent{s} unto {his} death" (D&C 76:35;132:27). Thus, murder can be thought of as the archetypal sin, as in the sin of Cain (Gen. 4:6-11,and esp. Moses 5:18-26, 31).

"The unpartdonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" is further described and explained here:

Quote

If a person with spiritual knowledge intentionally blasphemes God or the divine, the sin is most serious. For those who have entered into the new and everlasting covenant, blasphemy in extreme form is a sin against the Holy Ghost wherein one assents anew unto the death of Christ and the shedding of his innocent blood. This is called the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31-32; D&C 132:27).

See also this statement attributed to Joseph Smith:

Quote

What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin?  He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him.  After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost there is no repentance for him.  He has to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it;  he has to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy.”  He further stated:  ‘For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  Those who sin against the light and knowledge of the Holy Ghost may be said to crucify more than the body of our Lord, they crucify the Spirit.

As I see it, the most serious sin known to us is the form of blasphemy described in the preceding quotes.  If anything, the Lord characterizes this blasphemy as a form of murder.  See D&C 132:27: 

Quote

The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

To be sure, "apostasy" is certainly a part of that sin, since D&C 76:35 states that this sin can only be committed by one who has

Quote

denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

So apostasy is a part of this unpardonable sin, but certainly not the sum total of it.  There are plenty of people who "apostatize" (who "reject{} the revelations and ordinances of God, change{} the gospel of Jesus Christ, or rebel{} against the commandments of God, thereby losing the blessings of the Holy Ghost and of divine authority"), but who have not "receive{d} the Holy Ghost, ha{d} the heavens opened unto {them}, and know{n} God, and then sin{ned} against Him," who have not "den{ied} Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto {them}, and [denied} the plan of salvation with {their} eyes open to the truth of it," who have not "commit{ted} murder wherein {they} shed innocent blood, and assent unto {Christ's} death," who have not "crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame," who "were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  Those who sin against the light and knowledge of the Holy Ghost may be said to crucify more than the body of our Lord, they crucify the Spirit."

According to Latter-day Saint soteriology, apostates can apparently attain the Terrestrial Kingdom.  See here:

Quote

The terrestrial glory is for those who lived honorable lives on the earth but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus." Those who did not receive a testimony of Jesus while on earth, but who could have done so except for their neglect, are also heirs to the Terrestrial Kingdom (D&C 76:72-74, 79).

Apostates could also attain the Telestial Kingdom.  See here:

Quote

Within the telestial glory there will be varying degrees of glory even as the stars vary in brightness as we see them. It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality. They will be cleansed in the postmortal spirit world or spirit prison before the resurrection (D&C 76:81-85, 98-106; Rev. 22:15).

As noted above, even murderers attain the Telestial Kingdom.

"Outer Darkness," then, is reserved for "Sons of Perdition," or those who commit the "unpardonable sin."  See here (emphasis added):

Quote

Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, "You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance" (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain "filthy still" (D&C 29:44;88:35). It is revealed that "it had been better for them never to have been born" (D&C 76:32).

Those who become sons of perdition while in mortality will be resurrected with unglorified physical bodies and "rise to the damnation of their own filthiness" (TPJS, p. 361). Cain, thus resurrected, will then rule over the unembodied Lucifer (Moses 5:23; MD, p. 109).

It has been suggested that in the absence of the life-sustaining powers of God's Spirit, sons of perdition will eventually become disorganized and return to "native element" (JD 1:349-52; 5:271; 7:358-59). However, scripture declares that "the soul can never die" (Alma 12:20) and that in the Resurrection the spirit and the body are united "never to be divided" (Alma 11:45; cf. 12:18; D&C 93:33). The ultimate fate of sons of perdition will be made known only to those who are partakers thereof and will not be definitely revealed until the last judgment (D&C 29:27-30;43:33;76:43-48; TPJS, p. 24).

Few individuals have been identified as sons of perdition. Although Judas is often so regarded, there is a question whether he had received the Holy Ghost sufficiently to sin against it at the time of his betrayal of Christ (John 17:12; Smith, pp. 433-34).

So, yeah.  Sam Young is not being fair or accurate in his statements about the Church.  Not much of a surprise there.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 22, 2019 by smac97

[Rain]

Comparing apostasy with murder is comparing apples and oranges. If you look at the church website apostasy is turning away from the principles of the gospel. You can't compare the 2 because murder is a type of apostasy. 

The examples I have seen of people being excommunicated for "apostasy" really don't seem to be actually excommunicated for it, but rather leading others into apostasy. So leading people to spiritual death. 

If you look at it there then you can better compare the 2. Is intentionally causing spiritual death worse than intentionally causing physical death? 

But then it gets complicated. How many people cause spiritual death? What about the agency of that person? You could say it's worse because spiritual death is final, but then we have the time in the spirit world to be in a sense resurrected spiritually just like we are physically resurrected after this world. 

The agency is the kicker for me. Obviously, in the end, spiritual death is more damaging than physical death, but with agency you can never truly cause that in another person.

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Right. And it's also interesting that, as a woman, I have to assume that because I was never ordained to the Priesthood, that I'm not eligible for total apostasy. 

I remember as a faithful teen trying to explain that only Mormons can actually be total blasphemers (being the only ones with the fullness of the Gospel) to a close nonmember friend. Inadvertently through me, it became clear to him that, if one weighs the risk of judgment alone, a person is better off not getting baptised because then they cannot fully apostatize. 

 

You can actually. You can be received into the Priesthood Order through the temple.

Your friend rediscovered one of the rationalizations for the Priesthood Ban I used to occasionally hear back in the day.

[Meadowchik]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You can actually. You can be received into the Priesthood Order through the temple.

Your friend rediscovered one of the rationalizations for the Priesthood Ban I used to occasionally hear back in the day.

Do you have reason to believe this is what the scripture conveyed at that time?

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Right. And it's also interesting that, as a woman, I have to assume that because I was never ordained to the Priesthood, that I'm not eligible for total apostasy. 

Not a safe assumption, IMO.

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I remember as a faithful teen trying to explain that only Mormons can actually be total blasphemers (being the only ones with the fullness of the Gospel) to a close nonmember friend. Inadvertently through me, it became clear to him that, if one weighs the risk of judgment alone, a person is better off not getting baptised because then they cannot fully apostatize. 

He conclusion was, I think, quite flawed.

Thanks,

-Smac

[rpn]

I'd say they are the same --- murder you are cutting short another's mortal life that they have to learn how to use this body in submission to God's will and become like God, which is what we came here for.    Apostasy is doing the same thing, but doing it to yourself.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Not a safe assumption, IMO.

I think the more unsafe assumption is reliance on other men to tell us what God says about our own lives.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

He conclusion was, I think, quite flawed.

It's not unreasonable, given the cannon.

[carbon dioxide]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I am not sure with Sam was thinking about, but apostasy is not worse than murder.  Not even close.  You can get the electric chair for murder.  Apostasy at its worse gets you kicked out of the church (excommunicated).

Some forms of apostasy are worse than others.  In terms of the laws of man, murder is clearly worse.  In terms of the laws of God, extreme forms of apostasy are worse.  A murderer can still inherit the telestial kingdom.  Sin against the Holy Ghost does not even get you that.