Apostasy is worse than murder

[Calm]

17 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Well I am pretty sure that I would be placed in that category of denying the Holy Ghost, by virtue of denying the authority of the church, of Joseph Smith, and modern-day LDS prophets, as one who made covenants in the temple (assuming of course that I am not considered ineligible as a woman.) 

Do you have a spiritual witness of the authority of the Church, etc?

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Did you purposely leave out this descriptive picture describing "very bad things"?

It does have a scriptural reference:

How do you describe denying the Holy Spirit and "Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" to children?  Of course it is going to be simplistic.  But you know better than to interpret it the way you are, don't you?   

There are people much higher up in the Church than Sam Young, even original witnesses to the Book of Mormon, who apostatized and were forgiven and allowed back into the Church.  Not even they had experienced enough or done enough to deny the Holy Ghost!  I think Sam Young understood this history and is intentionally deceiving. I think other's, like yourself, who use this children's lesson to prove that we teach that general apostasy is akin to denying the Holy Ghost are only deceiving themselves.  Why don't you use the scriptures and look at our history of forgiving apostate?   The sons of perdition won't be forgiven in this life. 

There are consequences to claiming spokesmanship for God. This is one in the case of the LDS church.

Go read upthread at the quotes from prophets. And there are more concerning the point. An honest person can come to more than one conclusion with the given information. 

I mentioned my friends' brother's death years ago. Sincerely-believing members of his mother's ward expressed their grief to her that he was now lost. And he wasn't even apostate, but inactive and living with his girlfriend.

My sil lost her sister a few years ago. Also frequently inactive, and having issues with substance abuse. She feels like her sister is now released from earthly torment and welcomed into God's arms.

I much prefer the latter interpretation, but both are genuine and earnest.

I am not arguing for what I concluded as a believing Mormon, but that there are more than one reasonable conclusions.

[Calm]

 

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Sincerely-believing members of his mother's ward expressed their grief to her that he was now lost. And he wasn't even apostate, but inactive and living with his girlfriend.

There is a difference between personal interpretations of members and what is taught in manuals and from the pulpit by apostles.

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The unpardonable sin is to willfully deny and defy the Holy Ghost after having received His witness.

No man can sin against light until he has it; nor against the Holy Ghost, until after he has received it by the gift of God through the appointed channel or way. To sin against the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, the Witness of the Father and the Son, wilfully denying him and defying him, after having received him, constitutes [the unpardonable sin].16

No man can possibly commit the unpardonable sin in ignorance. A man must be brought to a knowledge of Christ; he must receive a testimony of Christ in his heart, and possess light and power, knowledge and understanding, before he is capable of committing that sin. But when a man turns away from the truth, violates the knowledge that he has received, tramples it under his feet, puts Christ again to open shame, denies His atonement, denies the power of the resurrection, denies the miracles that He has wrought for the salvation of the human family, and says in his heart, “It is not true”, and abides in that denial of the truth, after having received the testimony of the Spirit, he commits the unpardonable sin.17

[Following the Savior’s Crucifixion,] why were [the Apostles] forgetful and seemingly ignorant of all they had been taught by the Savior respecting the objects of his mission to the earth? Because they lacked one important qualification, they had not yet been “endowed with power from on high.” [See Luke 24:49.] They had not yet obtained the gift of the Holy Ghost. …

If the disciples had been endowed with the “gift of the Holy Ghost,” or “with power from on high,” at this time, their course would have been altogether different … , as the sequel abundantly proved. If Peter, who was the chief apostle, had received the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the power and testimony thereof prior to the terrible night on which he cursed and swore and denied his Lord [see Matthew 26:69–75], the result would have been very different with him, for then he would have sinned against “light and knowledge,” and “against the Holy Ghost,” for which there is no forgiveness. The fact, therefore, that he was forgiven, after bitter tears of repentance, is an evidence that he was without the witness of the Holy Ghost, never having received it. The other disciples or apostles of Christ were precisely in the same condition, and it was not until the evening of the day on which Jesus came out of the grave that he bestowed upon them this inestimable gift [see John 20:22].18

Just before the risen Redeemer left the earth he commanded his disciples to tarry in the city of Jerusalem until they should be endowed with power from on high. They did so, and agreeable to promise, the Comforter came whilst they were met together, filling their hearts with unspeakable joy, insomuch that they spake in tongues and prophesied; and the inspiring influence of this holy being accompanied them in all their ministerial duties, enabling them to perform the great mission to which they had been called by the Savior.19

Saul, of Tarsus, possessing extraordinary intelligence and learning, brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the perfect manner of the law, persecuted the Saints unto death, binding and delivering unto prisons both men and women; and when the blood of the Martyr Stephen was shed, Saul stood by keeping the raiment of those who slew him, and consented unto his death. And “he made havoc of the Church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.” [Acts 8:3.] And when they were put to death, he gave his voice against them, and he “punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, persecuted them even unto strange cities,” [Acts 26:11] and yet this man committed no unpardonable sin, because he knew not the Holy Ghost.20

If any people on earth are capable of committing the unpardonable sin, you will find them among those who have, or will, come to a knowledge of the truth. … You and I have received the light. We have received the Holy Priesthood. We have received the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and have been brought from death unto life. Therefore, we are now on very safe or on dangerous ground,—dangerous if we are trifling with these sacred things that have been committed to our care. Hence I warn you, my brethren and sisters, especially my brethren, against trifling with your [priesthood]. … If you do, as God lives He will withdraw His Spirit from you, and the time will come when you will be found kicking against the light and knowledge which you have received, and you may become sons of perdition. Therefore, you had better beware lest the second death shall be passed upon you.21

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-8.html?lang=eng

Even those kicking against light and knowledge only "may become sons of perdition".  Only when there is no hope of repentance is there no hope of forgiveness.

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6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Calm

[Judd]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Even if none believe it, it doesn't matter.  It could be true that Sam sincerely thought it, believed it or interpreted it that way.  But as we've seen on this thread, members have interpreted denying the HG as a form of apostasy, at the very least.  IT's not a stretch to think it is the ultimate form of apostasy in some minds.  

And I think it’d be disingenuous to suggest someone rose to the level of being a bishop without knowing that. It’d be taking the position of “well, I dunno, but gee golly, I suppose it may be possible!” to suggest that’s the case here. 

In any case, even if you classify denying the Holy Ghost as apostasy, what’s the connection there? Sam suggesting that because he was charged for apostasy and is therefore accused of “committing an offense worse than murder” is like saying that because speeding is a crime, and because rape is a crime, that anyone who speeds is a rapist. It requires being intentionally obtuse to reach those conclusions, but I suppose if we’re sympathetic to Sam’s cause, we may be inclined to approach it as “gosh darn, he must just be ignorant of that, it’s possible, ya know!”

[smac97]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

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The "big deal" is bad faith.  By Sam Young.  About us.

Equating leaving the Church with the-sin-worse-than-death-that-merits-banishment-to-Outer-Darkness is bad faith.  Again, see here:

Thanks,

-Smac

I've already responded to your argument, smac, at least for the most part. 

Well, not really.  I don't think you have addressed this much, if at all.  (Not that you have an obligation to...)

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I"m not sure why you must be so cynical on this. 

"This" being the conduct of Sam Young?

"Cynical" as in "believing that people are motivated by self-interest; distrustful of human sincerity or integrity"?

I am not a cynical person.  My assessment of Sam Young acting in bad faith is a conclusion based on this past and ongoing (mis)conduct, not an assumption about his nature.  

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know much about Sam Young at all,

I have read quite a bit of what he has had to say.  I am singularly unimpressed as to his sincerity or good faith.  To the contrary, I find his conduct relative to his activism to be overwhelmingly inappropriate, self-aggrandizing, obnoxious, misleading, overzealous, and even hateful.  So . . . yeah, bad faith.

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

but I"m not sure his intentions really matter here. 

Well, reasonable minds can disagree about such things.  

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It is true, without question, many in the Church, have, at various times and in various ways, been able to interpret the concept of denying the HG as being apostasy.  

Meh.  Sam Young has extensive experience in the Church.  Claiming that apostasy = denial-of-the-Holy-Ghost-amounting-to-becoming-a-Son-of-Perdition is either borne of ignorance, or else is simply bad faith.

It's pretty clear Sam Young is not ignorant.  So that leaves...

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

There are consequences to claiming spokesmanship for God. This is one in the case of the LDS church.

Go read upthread at the quotes from prophets. And there are more concerning the point. An honest person can come to more than one conclusion with the given information. 

Only if the "honest person" is reaching that conclusion in ignorance.  

10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I mentioned my friends' brother's death years ago. Sincerely-believing members of his mother's ward expressed their grief to her that he was now lost. And he wasn't even apostate, but inactive and living with his girlfriend.

Sorry, but quadruple-hearsay anecdotes don't really carry much sway with me.

10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

My sil lost her sister a few years ago. Also frequently inactive, and having issues with substance abuse. She feels like her sister is now released from earthly torment and welcomed into God's arms.

That is entirely compatible with the Latter-day Saint perspective on such things.

10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I much prefer the latter interpretation, but both are genuine and earnest.

You speak as if "the latter interpretation" is not found in the Restored Gospel.  I don't think that's so.  If anything, the Church's tri-partite model of salvation provides far more hope and assurance than the heaven/hell dichotomy found elsewhere.

10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I am not arguing for what I concluded as a believing Mormon, but that there are more than one reasonable conclusions.

Sam Young is not presenting a reasonable conclusion.  He is trading on ignorance and distortion.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

14 hours ago, stemelbow said:

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So you grant not all but some. What proportion of the membership would you define as “some” that believe this? 50-75%? 25-50%? 15-25%? 10-15%? 5-10%? 2-5%? 1%? <1%? I’m curious if you genuinely believe that people believe that, or if implying that membership thinks that can be hidden under the vaguery of “some” to suggest more than one, but be sufficiently unclear to open up the interpretation of possibly large quantities.

Even if none believe it, it doesn't matter. 

It matters.  A lot, actually.  Sam Young is telling the world lies about us.  He is attributing those lies to us.  So I don't think we can say "even if none believe {those lies}, it doesn't matter."

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It could be true that Sam sincerely thought it, believed it or interpreted it that way. 

I find it exceedingly unlikely that Sam "sincerely thought" any such thing.

Again, Sam's statement can be attributed to profound ignorance of some fairly basic concepts in Latter-day Saint soteriology, or else bad faith.  Sam Young spent decades of his adult life in the Church, including a stint as bishop (as he is so keen on reminding us).  I simply cannot attribute his statement to profound ignorance.  That leaves bad faith.

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But as we've seen on this thread, members have interpreted denying the HG as a form of apostasy, at the very least. 

No, we haven't.

There is no good faith argument for the proposition that leaving the Church is equivalent to becoming a Son of Perdition.  None.  At all.  Not even a smidge.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 28, 2019 by smac97

[Meadowchik]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

 

There is a difference between personal interpretations of members and what is taught in manuals and from the pulpit by apostles.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-8.html?lang=eng

Even those kicking against light and knowledge only "may become sons of perdition".  Only when there is no hope of repentance is there no hope of forgiveness.

 

Yes, there is a difference between teachings and interpretations. And the teachings do support the belief that a person who had a testimony and leaves is sinning against the Holy Ghost. Think about how much we're taught that we ARE feeling the Holy Ghost, that these feelings are knowledge. 

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Only if the "honest person" is reaching that conclusion in ignorance.  

Sorry, but quadruple-hearsay anecdotes don't really carry much sway with me.

That is entirely compatible with the Latter-day Saint perspective on such things.

You speak as if "the latter interpretation" is not found in the Restored Gospel.  I don't think that's so.  If anything, the Church's tri-partite model of salvation provides far more hope and assurance than the heaven/hell dichotomy found elsewhere.

Sam Young is not presenting a reasonable conclusion.  He is trading on ignorance and distortion.

Thanks,

-Smac

I would say, SMAC, that the teaching of apostasy itself is generally trade on ignorance and distortion. That's the source of misunderstanding here. It is a way to make good people who have felt strong feelings and had powerful spiritual experiences to feel obligated to the leaders of the church. Look at what the early prophets said about it. 

 

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

And the teachings do support the belief that a person who had a testimony and leaves is sinning against the Holy Ghost.

Sinning against the Holy Ghost is not always denying him anymore than winning against a family member must mean you disown them. 

The problem here is assuming a black and white approach, all or nothing. 

If a person can repent, they cannot be committing the unpardonable sin. 

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Sinning against the Holy Ghost is not always denying him anymore than winning against a family member must mean you disown them. 

The problem here is assuming a black and white approach, all or nothing. 

If a person can repent, they cannot be committing the unpardonable sin. 

Well yes, I agree that the problem is in assuming that all or nothing approach. The church has taught that people who become disloyal to the church are leaving God. 

[smac97]

19 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I would say, SMAC, that the teaching of apostasy itself is generally trade on ignorance and distortion.

That would be an interesting play on words, if you were to actually substantiate it.  But that's a pretty big "if."  Please go ahead and substantiate it.  I'm happy to listen to what you have to say.  

The concept of apostasy is shot through the Bible.  Consider the Children of Israel after they left Egypt.  How would you characterize their worship of the Golden Calf?  Wouldn't "apostasy" be an appropriate descriptor?  If not, why not?  Consider these passages from Exodus 32 (emphases added):

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7 ¶ And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
...
19 ¶ And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
21 And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?

This sounds like an instance of "apostasy."  Do you disagree?  And how did "ignorance and distortion" come into play in Moses' reaction?  I'm not seeing it.

Consider Elijah's ministry to Israel during the reign of Ahab.  What do you think he meant when he told the masses on Mount Carmel "How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him"?  Doesn't that story include the concept of apostasy?  And how does "ignorance and distortion" come in to play vis-à-vis Elijah's actions?  I just don't see it.

Apostasy is a very significant theme in the New Testament.  See, e.g., here:

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According to B. J. Oropeza, the warning passages in the New Testament describe at least three dangers which could lead a Christian to commit apostasy:^[4]

Temptations: Christians were tempted to engage in various vices that were a part of their lives before they became Christians (idolatry, sexual immorality, covetousness, etc.).

Deceptions: Christians encountered various heresies and false teachings spread by false teachers and prophets that threatened to seduce them away from their pure devotion to Christ.

Persecutions: Christians were persecuted by the governing powers of the day for their allegiance to Christ. Many Christians were threatened with certain death if they would not deny Christ.

Persecution is highlighted in the Epistle to the Hebrews and the First Epistle of Peter. The issue of false teachers/teachings is found in the Johannine and Pauline epistles, in the Second Epistle of Peter and the Epistle of Jude. A number of sections in the writings of Paul and James focus on vices and virtues. "These and other early texts helped to shape the trajectory of Christian response to the phenomenon of defection in the post-apostolic era. The Christians were to persevere through various types of opposition, standing firm against temptation, false doctrine, hardships and persecution."^[5]

 

Is Oropeza substantively incorrect in this summary?  If so, how?

More (same link):

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The Greek noun apostasia (rebellion, abandonment, state of apostasy, defection)^[6] is found only twice in the New Testament (Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3).^[7] However, "the concept of apostasy is found throughout Scripture."^[8] The related verb aphistēmi (go away, withdraw, depart, fall away)^[9] carries considerable theological significance in three passages (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12).^[10]

• Luke 8:11–13 – Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. (ESV)^[11]
• 1 Timothy 4:1 – But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. (NASB)
• Hebrews 3:12–14 – Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. (ESV)^[12]

...
 

The following passages where the verb skandalizō ("fall away from faith")^[15] and the noun skandalon ("enticement to unbelief, cause of salvation's loss, seduction"):^[16] are theologically important as well:^[17]

• Matthew 5:27-30 ...
• Matthew 13:20-21 ...
• Matthew 13:40-42 ...
• Matthew 18:6-9 ...
• Matthew 24:4, 9-10, 13 ...
• Mark 4:16-17 ...
• Mark 9:42-48 ...
• Luke 17:1-2 ...
• John 15:18, 20, 27, 16:1 ...
• Romans 14:13-15, 20 ...
• Romans 16:17-18 ...
• 1 Corinthians 8:9-13 ...
• 1 John 2:9-11 ...
• Revelation 2:14 ...

I really don't understand your position here.

Quote

That's the source of misunderstanding here.

Again, I don't understand.  "{T}he teaching of apostasy itself" is "the source of misunderstanding"?  What "misunderstanding"?  Of what?  By whom?  It what context?

Are you rejecting the concept ("apostasy itself") altogether?  What are you saying here?

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It is a way to make good people who have felt strong feelings and had powerful spiritual experiences to feel obligated to the leaders of the church.

Hmm.  Sounds like you are describing Romans 10:

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1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Was Paul wrong to say this?

Also, what are your thoughts about this article from the "Gospel Topics" section of the Church's website?  I'm thinking specifically of this part:

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During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances.

We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. The scriptures teach that the Church will never again be destroyed (see Doctrine and Covenants 138:44; see also Daniel 2:44).

What are your thoughts about D&C 138:44 and Daniel 2:44?

With respect, I think you are taking an extreme position.  You seem to be rejecting the concept of apostasy in its entirety.  I don't think that works. 

And you are apparently rejecting it by suggesting that it is a false concept used by leaders of the Church to manipulate and control the members.  I don't think that works. 

To be sure, most godly precepts can be misused or distorted.  Paul's reference to "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" in Romans 10 is a good example.  Another would be the concept of "blind" obedience to the leaders of the Church.  That isn't appropriate, either.  Consider these wise words from Elder L. Tom Perry:

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There is great strength and power in the fact that millions throughout the world share the same testimony of God, the Savior, and the calling of the Prophet Joseph Smith. We have never been encouraged to be blindly obedient; it is an intelligent obedience that characterizes members of the Church.

Brigham Young is reported to have said that the greatest fear he had was that members of the Church would take what he said as the mind and will of God without first praying and obtaining a witness of the same for themselves.

Yep.

Quote

Look at what the early prophets said about it. 

I don't think you can have it both ways, Meadowchik.  

I will close with this note about apostates from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism regarding apostates (which rather goes against Sam Young's specious claim about what we believe re: apostasy):

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Apostates sometimes become enemies of the Church. Leaving the Church, which claims to be God's official church, containing the fulness of the gospel, often results in feelings of guilt. While many return, others develop a need to defend their actions, "disprove" the Church, or become hostile enemies. The fruits of apostasy are generally bitter. The Book of Mormon warns of unfavorable conditions that result from transgression contrary to "light and knowledge" (Alma 9:23).

LDS scriptures establish a loving and hopeful attitude toward apostates. Latter-day Saints are strongly counseled to love those who have left the faith, and to encourage, plead, and work with those who have strayed, inviting "the lost sheep" back to the fold (Luke 15:3-7). Of the wayward, the resurrected Savior taught, "Ye shall not cast him out of your places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them" (3 Ne. 18:32). The desire to return is motivated by the reality of repentance enabled by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. "He who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins-behold, he will confess them and forsake them" (D&C 58:42-43). 

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 29, 2019 by smac97

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

. The church has taught that people who become disloyal to the church are leaving God. 

Well they are in a way.  But as Calm pointed out they can repent.  It's not unpardonable and they aren't beyond God's reach.

The whole challenge of the apostasy discussion is in scriptures like:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

So the discussion then shifts to whether the person leaving actually has a knowledge of truth and then leaves.  Most who leave don't.

[pogi]

20 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

There are consequences to claiming spokesmanship for God. This is one in the case of the LDS church.

Go read upthread at the quotes from prophets. And there are more concerning the point. An honest person can come to more than one conclusion with the given information. 

I read the quotes.  I don't see anyone who elevates general apostasy to the level of denying the Holy Ghost.  What are you talking about?  I don't see how an honest person can come to that conclusion given the information provided, the scriptures, and how the prophets have welcomed high up apostates with forgiveness and open arms over and over and over again.

20 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I mentioned my friends' brother's death years ago. Sincerely-believing members of his mother's ward expressed their grief to her that he was now lost. And he wasn't even apostate, but inactive and living with his girlfriend.

My sil lost her sister a few years ago. Also frequently inactive, and having issues with substance abuse. She feels like her sister is now released from earthly torment and welcomed into God's arms.

 I am beyond confident that no member of your mother's ward expressed that they thought your brother was a son of perdition and was doomed for outer darkness.  If they actually used the word "lost" (which I doubt), then it is much more likely that they thought that he won't be exalted.  That is very different from not being saved.  I think you understand that deep down, but don't want to believe it about us Latter-day Saints.

20 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I much prefer the latter interpretation, but both are genuine and earnest.

I am not arguing for what I concluded as a believing Mormon, but that there are more than one reasonable conclusions.

I prefer the second one too, but I am confident that the first example didn't even happen and was misinterpreted.  What member/s would say to a grieving mother that her dead son is a son of perdition, bound for outer darkness, and has no hope of salvation to any degree of glory because he denied the Holy Ghost - nope, didn't happen.  And you claim there were multiple members who did that?  No way!  That is beyond uncharacteristic of Latter-day Saint belief and character.   Just to be clear, I am not calling you a liar, I am saying you misunderstood the situation.

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by pogi

[hope_for_things]

I just happened to be curious what was going on over here at MDDB and I checked out this thread.  Can I just say that I’m so glad I really don’t care about these debates about doctrine anymore.  
 

I’m sure there are people at church who might think my metaphorical approach to religion is scary or even blasphemous.  See, I don’t believe in a literal resurrection or atonement or even a Holy Ghost.  Does that qualify me for any of these imaginary punishments?  I don’t believe in that kind of a God and the very thought makes me laugh. 
 

Life is good and I’m focused on how I can be a positive influence on others and if some people are worried about my salvation then that’s for them to be concerned about.  I don’t care how many previous church leaders statements or scriptural interpretations led people to teach fear tactics to try and motivate the populace to behave in certain ways.  None of that is part of the core gospel message I find inspirational.  

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The church has taught that people who become disloyal to the church are leaving God. 

Well they are in a way.  But as Calm pointed out they can repent.  It's not unpardonable and they aren't beyond God's reach.

The whole challenge of the apostasy discussion is in scriptures like:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

So the discussion then shifts to whether the person leaving actually has a knowledge of truth and then leaves.  Most who leave don't.

As far as this life is concerned, they aren't necessarily leaving God altogether, but they are leaving the chance for eternal life with God. Some members leave the church and join another religion that very much believes in and worships God. That has got to count for something in the eyes of God. I suppose the Terrestrial kingdom will have many of these people "who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father." (D&C 76: 77). Last I heard the Son is also God.

[Bernard Gui]

The unpardonable sin is against the Holy Ghost, not against Joseph Smith or the Church.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[smac97]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I just happened to be curious what was going on over here at MDDB and I checked out this thread.  Can I just say that I’m so glad I really don’t care about these debates about doctrine anymore.

Okay.

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I’m sure there are people at church who might think my metaphorical approach to religion is scary or even blasphemous.

Honestly, I don't think Latter-day Saints are big into labeling things as "blasphemous."

And irreligiosity isn't viewed as "scary," either.  It's a fairly common thing, actually.

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

See, I don’t believe in a literal resurrection or atonement or even a Holy Ghost.  Does that qualify me for any of these imaginary punishments?

"These imaginary punishments" being . . . what?

This is a decidedly strange question to present to a board populated mostly by Latter-day Saints.

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I don’t believe in that kind of a God and the very thought makes me laugh. 

"The very thought" of what?

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Life is good and I’m focused on how I can be a positive influence on others and if some people are worried about my salvation then that’s for them to be concerned about.

Life is good for me, too.  I am also focused on being "a positive influence on others."  That is a central facet of the Restored Gospel, yet you seem to be treating it as an alternative.

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I don’t care how many previous church leaders statements or scriptural interpretations led people to teach fear tactics to try and motivate the populace to behave in certain ways.  None of that is part of the core gospel message I find inspirational.  

Whatever part of the Gospel you can accept is good.  Take what you can.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The unpardonable sin is against the Holy Ghost not Joseph Smith or the Church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin  Maybe the below is why some think that ex LDS are sons of perdition. Specifically that LDS receive the Holy Ghost when they are baptized into the LDS church.....and then reject the church thereafter.

 

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy.^[26]

 

 

 

 

 

[carbon dioxide]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin  Maybe the below is why some think that ex LDS are sons of perdition. Specifically that LDS receive the Holy Ghost when they are baptized into the LDS church.....and then reject the church thereafter.

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy.^[26]

In real terms, one becomes as Satan is.  Like Satan who openly rebelled against God having a full knowledge of the truth, those that commit this sin also openly rebel against God with a full knowledge of the truth.  It is only fitting that such individuals are given basically the punishment that Satan was given.  Outside of having a resurrected body, they are all thrown into outer darkness. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

As far as this life is concerned, they aren't necessarily leaving God altogether, but they are leaving the chance for eternal life with God. Some members leave the church and join another religion that very much believes in and worships God. That has got to count for something in the eyes of God. I suppose the Terrestrial kingdom will have many of these people "who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father." (D&C 76: 77). Last I heard the Son is also God.

I think that they still have the potential to become celestial material...otherwise the Atonement isn’t infinite, imo. 

The life that is judged imo is mortality and prejudgment postmortality.   Otherwise, it becomes somewhat random in that some may have repented later and had their blessing restored if they had not been killed in an accident, for example, but are limited to the Terrestial Kingdom while others who left the Gospel are blessed with exaltation because they lived long enough to work through their issues and repent and return (to assume God ensured everyone who leaves the Church has enough time to return to it if they would creates too many necessary interferences with mortality and this with the consequences of agency by God that are easily removed if one alllows for change and repentance of all types postmortality).

The problem with rejecting the Gospel (and I mean actually rejecting the Gospel as in not being valiant in one’s testimony, I don’t include rejection through ignorance which can occur with members as well as nonmembers imo) in mortality is not that God closes the door to exaltation imo, but that those who have chosen to walk away from the Gospel have established a personality that prioritizes other things over spiritual communication with God and this mentality continues post mortality. Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour imo, though people do change, do repent, so either acceptance or rejection in mortality doesn’t guarantee either post mortality imo. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Specifically that LDS receive the Holy Ghost when they are baptized into the LDS church..

Just because members are given the Gift of the Holy Ghost doesn’t mean we fully use that Gift at that time.  There is probably a great deal of variation over a lifetime in fact from what I have seen and experienced.  (Think Brother of Jared having his visions and then going 4 years without calling on God)

There are imo a small percentage of members that make full use of the Holy Ghost at any time, though many members do so to the best of their limited ability (until we give ourselves fully to God, we are relying on our own abilities and not God’s, only through God’s help can we fully access the Gift of the Holy Ghost imo).

I don’t believe the unpardonable sin occurs until one has full access to the Spirit and most important has made use of that access to the point that they are truly enlightened by the Spirit. 

And then at some point they decide they don’t want that light and they knowing fully the consequences turn the light off in their own lives and then pretend to others there is no light while fully aware of how others can see the truth because of it. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin  Maybe the below is why some think that ex LDS are sons of perdition. Specifically that LDS receive the Holy Ghost when they are baptized into the LDS church.....and then reject the church thereafter.

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy.^[26]

I don't know any ex LDS that have reached that level.  The gift of the Holy Ghost at age 8 is not even close to what Joseph describes here.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin  Maybe the below is why some think that ex LDS are sons of perdition. Specifically that LDS receive the Holy Ghost when they are baptized into the LDS church.....and then reject the church thereafter.

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy.^[26]

How do you understand the bolded part? I don't think the average ex-LDS person has that kind of knowledge. Only God can know if those who have this kind of knowledge revealed to them have denied it. He will forgive whom he will. For us it is given to forgive all. His judgement will be merciful and just.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Honestly, I don't think Latter-day Saints are big into labeling things as "blasphemous."

And irreligiosity isn't viewed as "scary," either.  It's a fairly common thing, actually.

It depends who you're talking to I guess.  The current leaders seem to frequently espouse the fallen state of those who choose other paths and how saddened they are when people succumb to the evils of this world.  As if someone outside the boundaries of the "true church" is somehow lost.  

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

"These imaginary punishments" being . . . what?

This is a decidedly strange question to present to a board populated mostly by Latter-day Saints.

Punishments like those listed in scripture in this thread for those who deny the HG or who lose their faith when scriptures warnings are interpreted in a literal sense.  As for posting on this board, there is a diversity of opinions here, why you think it strange strikes me as strange.  

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

I don’t believe in that kind of a God and the very thought makes me laugh. 

"The very thought" of what?

The thought of a God that cares about such things as denying the HG and punishments for getting out of line in any literal sense.  Very human and tribalistic.  

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

Life is good and I’m focused on how I can be a positive influence on others and if some people are worried about my salvation then that’s for them to be concerned about.

Life is good for me, too.  I am also focused on being "a positive influence on others."  That is a central facet of the Restored Gospel, yet you seem to be treating it as an alternative.

I'm glad to hear life is treating you well and that we agree on the importance of how we treat others.

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

I don’t care how many previous church leaders statements or scriptural interpretations led people to teach fear tactics to try and motivate the populace to behave in certain ways.  None of that is part of the core gospel message I find inspirational.  

Whatever part of the Gospel you can accept is good.  Take what you can.

Those other statements by church leaders aren't part of the Gospel.  Thats my point.