Apostasy is worse than murder

[pogi]

There is only one sin worse than murder, and apostasy is not it.  One should not conflate apostasy with denying the Holy Ghost.  Denying the Holy Ghost requires something more than general apostasy.

One can apostatize without denying the Holy Ghost, but one cannot deny the Holy Ghost without apostatizing.  

[Maidservant]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

 One should not conflate apostasy with denying the Holy Ghost.

You said it before I could. Agreed.

 

/////////////////////////////

The definition of the sin against the Holy Ghost is given as the shedding of innocent blood and it is further given as related to participating in the crucifixion of Christ. So this is rather symbolic about what it might mean since none of us live in 33 A.D. anymore. As some have already implied, most people in the world, in and out of the church, are not going to even touch the possibility of this, as they have not shed innocent blood (first) nor have/would participate in the crucifixion of Christ (second). And who indeed did crucify Christ in 33 A.D.? Because Jesus' said "Forgive them. They don't know what they are doing." So that whole symbolism about what that really means is something none of us probably can completely plumb. (I'm also not beyond personally saying that, given how long eternity is, there is nothing that is not unpardonable, kind of like how the use of 'endless' doesn't mean there isn't going to be an 'end'.) The scriptures need to be understood in whole (not pieced out without the context of the whole) and integrated with real time experience and further unfolding revelations. The sin against the Holy Ghost is, I think, going to be something beyond what we think or what we say. It doesn't even have to do with whether or not we follow promptings.

Murder does not bar one from salvation in this life or the next, as the Lamanites found in the Book of Mormon. They became clean in this lifetime.

None of our 'sins' are absolutes. It's not a video game. It's the opportunity for progression in time and eternity; and the learning from our mistakes when and as we are able, whether in time or eternity.

 

///////////////

Oddly enough, the word 'apostasy is not in the scriptures at all; so it's usage in the Church would be from subsequent Latter-day thought. (For me personally, I would be fine shedding this completely as an earlier way of thinking that doesn't need to go forward.)

The word 'blaspheme' is in the scriptures. In the New Testament, it is most often said as a phrase to 'blaspheme the name of God'. It seems to have a connotation far beyond disagreement or even teaching disagreement. A study worth making. At first glance, to me it seems to be how one treats oneself and others, including how one treats sacred matters.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Maidservant

[Judd]

I had been trying to jog my memory, and I know I posted about it on here when it happened, but he made some fairly similar comments previously right before his excommunication about how (paraphrasing) the court was going to separate him from his family for eternity and send him to outer darkness. Something like that. Something that was blatantly false but he got a pass for (meaning factually, provably false and not in any way open to interpretation or perspective).

Edited December 23, 2019 by Judd

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Oddly enough, the word 'apostasy is not in the scriptures at all; so it's usage in the Church would be from subsequent Latter-day thought. (For me personally, I would be fine shedding this completely as an earlier way of thinking that doesn't need to go forward.)

The word "apostasy" is not in the King James Bible translation, but it is in other translations.  The Greek word for it is ἀποστασία (apostasía) and you'll find it in Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes 2:3 of the New Testament, and in Joshua 22:22, 2 Chron 29:19 of the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint), and also in 1 Maccabees 2:15 of the Apocrypha. 

Here are the verses in the Old Testament from the Brenton Translation of the Septuagint:

Joshua 22:22, "God even God is the Lord, and God even God himself knows, and Israel he shall know; if we have transgressed before the Lord by apostasy, let him not deliver us this day."

2 Chronicles 29: 18-19:  "And they went in to king Ezekias, and said, We have purified all the things in the house of the Lord, the altar of whole-burnt-offering, and its vessels, and the table of shew-bread, and its vessels; 19 and all the vessels which king Achaz polluted in his reign, in his apostasy, we have prepared and purified: behold, they are before the altar of the Lord. 

In the 1 Maccabees 2:15 verse, Brenton translated apostasía as "revolt":  "In the mean while the king's officers, such as compelled the people to revolt, came into the city Modin, to make them sacrifice."

And here is Acts 21:21 from the Darby Translation:  "And they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, saying that they should not circumcise their children, nor walk in the customs."

And finally, the well known verse (to Latter-day Saints) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 from the NASB translation:  "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction".

So the word has its very roots in ancient scripture and has its place and purpose in our language today.  And forms of this word are found in the latter-day revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants, in 85:2, 85:11, and 86:3.

Edited December 23, 2019 by InCognitus

[Maidservant]

29 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

The word "apostasy" is not in the King James Bible translation, but it is in other translations.  The Greek word for it is ἀποστασία (apostasía) and you'll find it in Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes 2:3 of the New Testament, and in Joshua 22:22, 2 Chron 29:19 of the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint), and also in 1 Maccabees 2:15 of the Apocrypha. 

Here are the verses in the Old Testament from the Brenton Translation of the Septuagint:

Joshua 22:22, "God even God is the Lord, and God even God himself knows, and Israel he shall know; if we have transgressed before the Lord by apostasy, let him not deliver us this day."

2 Chronicles 29: 18-19:  "And they went in to king Ezekias, and said, We have purified all the things in the house of the Lord, the altar of whole-burnt-offering, and its vessels, and the table of shew-bread, and its vessels; 19 and all the vessels which king Achaz polluted in his reign, in his apostasy, we have prepared and purified: behold, they are before the altar of the Lord. 

In the 1 Maccabees 2:15 verse, Brenton translated apostasía as "revolt":  "In the mean while the king's officers, such as compelled the people to revolt, came into the city Modin, to make them sacrifice."

And here is Acts 21:21 from the Darby Translation:  "And they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, saying that they should not circumcise their children, nor walk in the customs."

And finally, the well known verse (to Latter-day Saints) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 from the NASB translation:  "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction".

So the word has it very roots in ancient scripture and has its place and purpose in our language today.  And forms of this word are found in the latter-day revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants, in 85:2, 85:11, and 86:3.

I should have known better to go deeper than the English. Thanks for the great research.

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, Judd said:

I had been trying to jog my memory, and I know I posted about it on here when it happened, but he made some fairly similar comments previously right before his excommunication about how (paraphrasing) the court was going to separate him from his family for eternity and send him to outer darkness. Something like that. Something that was blatantly false but he got a pass for (meaning factually, provably false and not in any way open to interpretation or perspective).

Going by common speech in the church and even the teachings of LDS missionaries on the street, an apostate will be separated from their families for eternity, as will anyone who does not accept the ordinances of the church now or in the next life. 

[Maidservant]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Going by common speech in the church and even the teachings of LDS missionaries on the street, an apostate will be separated from their families for eternity, as will anyone who does not accept the ordinances of the church now or in the next life. 

Going by an unnuanced, unstudied view.

I tried to think of a nice way to say this and erased several things. And I thought about not saying anything at all, because my point is not merely to point out what I see as lacking in the many conclusions you state in many threads, simply for the sake of pointing it out for argument or whatever. Because I can tell you are a thoughtful, brilliant person who has come to your conclusions by experience and reason.

And I'm sure you could mention much lacking in my point(s) of view, which would be fair now that I've done so.

But I decided not to be silent, mainly for any who might pass by in order to offer an alternative; as well as I wish you didn't hurt yourself so much with your conclusions (although perhaps you will say that you are not hurt, but free; all right), and even though that's none of my business, but nevertheless it's a thought that came to me. And I think there is no way to say it this that isn't at least somewhat challenging to you.

There is plenty to question and wrestle with in the gospel and the church, and really, what there is in the gospel is going to end up being bewildering and rather unanswered, because it's not just gospel, it's life itself and life doesn't have answers that you can answer like a test question. As Nephi said, I don't know the meaning of all things, I just know God loves his children. 1 Ne 11:17  I sometimes say I leave the church on Monday and get back in by Sunday--because it IS difficult to wrestle with this stuff and how it does and does not apply to real time life.

But the things you say are things that all of the members who have remained in the church (so far) that are on this board have gone far beyond. They have broken these things open beyond their junior primary presentation and have been led and taught, by experience, reason, symbolism, by taking the scriptures and revelation as a whole [for example, think of the passage that says that no one who has been sealed WILL lose their children and we are all children of someone], deep questions that God has been gracious to part the veil on. Not to say that we, each or all of us, have "got it right", but only to say that it has become clear that it's not a 2-D story and we have been granted greater clues.

Let me say this to the theme. To the degree that I have any power whatsoever (i.e. teleportation capacity, etc), there is NOTHING that will separate me from my family, ever. That's what *I* decide as an agent and as a follower of Christ (who goes after who he loves, so to follow that example). The only thing that could possibly separate me is my failings as a human being (which I think is the closer definition of blaspheming or apostasy than anything else); which might make me be a person my family doesn't want to be around. Otherwise, I'm confident there will be all reunion with all good souls and all reunion with any tormented souls as well, to the degree I have strength to offer my love and family circle to such. Kind of the same as here. Kind of the same as in any place I find myself in eternity.

I came to this conclusion by continuing to seek for understanding within the gospel/church and their principles (such as agency and love and the power of family). I'm not saying one has to do it that way, but it's possible. Some might say, well, then you aren't doing what the rules are, as if it was a merely bunch of rules rather than a set of symbols and markers for deeper ponder and revelation and interpretation of one's daily experience. And it is my covenant and the power I gain from it that has helped me to become this person with this strength (if I have any) and this point of view. There are other ways that other people could come to that sanctification and view, I know there are. But I do believe that the covenants offered in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are possibly the best chance for such growth, or at least one wonderful way whose influence would be much missed if it wasn't on the earth, as far as the power to bind and lift families IN THIS LIFETIME and beyond. Not by tokens, but by the fulfilling of the covenants (over a lifetime of growth in them) that are associated with the token ordinances.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Maidservant

[Judd]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Going by common speech in the church and even the teachings of LDS missionaries on the street, an apostate will be separated from their families for eternity, as will anyone who does not accept the ordinances of the church now or in the next life. 

Though I’d dispute some of what you said, for argument’s sake I’ll take it at face value and state that some may superficially reach that conclusion, but anyone who’s taken a nuanced look at this over time, as someone like Sam Young, or anyone who’s been around long enough to be a bishop, would know know this is false in its context. Essentially, he’s preying on people’s ignorance because he feels it’s an appropriate impassioning tool. Not a great look for someone claiming to be beating on the doors of truth and transparency. But the look doesn’t much matter, as those who know better don’t seem to be the ones he’s targeting and emboldening himself upon. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Judd

[smac97]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Going by common speech in the church and even the teachings of LDS missionaries on the street, an apostate will be separated from their families for eternity, as will anyone who does not accept the ordinances of the church now or in the next life. 

Your reference to "separated from their families" seems to suggest that you think such separation is an affirmative act of God.  If that is your assessment, I don't think that's the way of things.  To the contrary, God acts affirmatively to preserve family relationships, not sever them.

As soon as we speak of the promises of the Restored Gospel in a scriptural context, this discussion becomes pretty much moot.  That context necessarily requires consideration of D&C 132:7:

Quote

And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations,oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

And verse 13, 15-16:

Quote

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
...
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
 16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

These are declarations of eternal laws and principles.  The things of this world are of finite duration.  That is simply the way of things.  The default condition.  So it does not seem reasonable complain about the limited duration of a particular relationship in this life, just as it would make no sense to complain that our lives on this earth are of limited duration.

This is where the Good News comes in.  Although our lives are of limited duration, God has prepared a Plan that enables us to overcome death.  "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."  (1 Cor. 15:22).  The gift of the Resurrection is free unto all.  We are already promised that.  "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  (Romans 5:18).  "Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous..." (D&C 11:44).  Likewise, a kingdom of glory has already been promised to virtually all of us, including all but the most utterly and irredeemably wicked (See D&C 76 regarding the kingdoms of glory, and these passages regarding Outer Darkness).

Now, in addition to these great promises, our Heavenly Father has also given us the means whereby we can enjoy a continuation of family relationships in the eternities.  However, this blessing is unlike the foregoing promises in that it is not ubiquitously granted, and is instead given only to those who desire it and take the steps which the Lord has provided for obtaining it.  This blessing is conditioned on faith in and acceptance of Christ, on performance of saving ordinances, and of living righteously.  Throughout all of this there are governing principles, such as that "when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated," that we are required to discern and submit ourselves "unto the righteousness of God" rather than "going about to establish {our} own righteousness", and of limiting our words, thoughts and deeds to "the bounds the Lord has set."

I think those who object to the doctrines of the Church, who characterize those doctrines as God singling out and punishing His children by severing their familial relationships, are not properly representing our beliefs.  Again, the severing of those relationships is the natural and foreseeable consequence of death.  Death severs those relationships, but God has provided a means to overcome that, to preserve those relationships into the eternities.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 23, 2019 by smac97

[Meadowchik]

46 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Going by an unnuanced, unstudied view.

I tried to think of a nice way to say this and erased several things. And I thought about not saying anything at all, because my point is not merely to point out what I see as lacking in the many conclusions you state in many threads, simply for the sake of pointing it out for argument or whatever. Because I can tell you are a thoughtful, brilliant person who has come to your conclusions by experience and reason.

And I'm sure you could mention much lacking in my point(s) of view, which would be fair now that I've done so.

But I decided not to be silent, mainly for any who might pass by in order to offer an alternative; as well as I wish you didn't hurt yourself so much with your conclusions (although perhaps you will say that you are not hurt, but free; all right), and even though that's none of my business, but nevertheless it's a thought that came to me. And I think there is no way to say it this that isn't at least somewhat challenging to you.

There is plenty to question and wrestle with in the gospel and the church, and really, what there is in the gospel is going to end up being bewildering and rather unanswered, because it's not just gospel, it's life itself and life doesn't have answers that you can answer like a test question. As Nephi said, I don't know the meaning of all things, I just know God loves his children. 1 Ne 11:17  I sometimes say I leave the church on Monday and get back in by Sunday--because it IS difficult to wrestle with this stuff and how it does and does not apply to real time life.

But the things you say are things that all of the members who have remained in the church (so far) that are on this board have gone far beyond. They have broken these things open beyond their junior primary presentation and have been led and taught, by experience, reason, symbolism, by taking the scriptures and revelation as a whole [for example, think of the passage that says that no one who has been sealed WILL lose their children and we are all children of someone], deep questions that God has been gracious to part the veil on. Not to say that we, each or all of us, have "got it right", but only to say that it has become clear that it's not a 2-D story and we have been granted greater clues.

Let me say this to the theme. To the degree that I have any power whatsoever (i.e. teleportation capacity, etc), there is NOTHING that will separate me from my family, ever. That's what *I* decide as an agent and as a follower of Christ (who goes after who he loves, so to follow that example). The only thing that could possibly separate me is my failings as a human being (which I think is the closer definition of blaspheming or apostasy than anything else); which might make me be a person my family doesn't want to be around. Otherwise, I'm confident there will be all reunion with all good souls and all reunion with any tormented souls as well, to the degree I have strength to offer my love and family circle to such. Kind of the same as here. Kind of the same as in any place I find myself in eternity.

I came to this conclusion by continuing to seek for understanding within the gospel/church and their principles (such as agency and love and the power of family). I'm not saying one has to do it that way, but it's possible. Some might say, well, then you aren't doing what the rules are, as if it was a merely bunch of rules rather than a set of symbols and markers for deeper ponder and revelation and interpretation of one's daily experience. And it is my covenant and the power I gain from it that has helped me to become this person with this strength (if I have any) and this point of view. There are other ways that other people could come to that sanctification and view, I know there are. But I do believe that the covenants offered in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are possibly the best chance for such growth, or at least one wonderful way whose influence would be much missed if it wasn't on the earth, as far as the power to bind and lift families IN THIS LIFETIME and beyond. Not by tokens, but by the fulfilling of the covenants (over a lifetime of growth in them) that are associated with the token ordinances.

 

That's pretty much what I arrived at about 20 years ago, after "breaking open" the norm teachings. It was the year my BYU roommate's brother died several months after my sister almost died. 

Thanks for your perspective.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The word "apostasy" is not in the King James Bible translation, but it is in other translations.  The Greek word for it is ἀποστασία (apostasía) and you'll find it in Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes 2:3 of the New Testament, and in Joshua 22:22, 2 Chron 29:19 of the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint), and also in 1 Maccabees 2:15 of the Apocrypha. 

Here are the verses in the Old Testament from the Brenton Translation of the Septuagint:

Joshua 22:22, "God even God is the Lord, and God even God himself knows, and Israel he shall know; if we have transgressed before the Lord by apostasy, let him not deliver us this day."

2 Chronicles 29: 18-19:  "And they went in to king Ezekias, and said, We have purified all the things in the house of the Lord, the altar of whole-burnt-offering, and its vessels, and the table of shew-bread, and its vessels; 19 and all the vessels which king Achaz polluted in his reign, in his apostasy, we have prepared and purified: behold, they are before the altar of the Lord. 

In the 1 Maccabees 2:15 verse, Brenton translated apostasía as "revolt":  "In the mean while the king's officers, such as compelled the people to revolt, came into the city Modin, to make them sacrifice."

And here is Acts 21:21 from the Darby Translation:  "And they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, saying that they should not circumcise their children, nor walk in the customs."

And finally, the well known verse (to Latter-day Saints) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 from the NASB translation:  "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction".

So the word has its very roots in ancient scripture and has its place and purpose in our language today.  And forms of this word are found in the latter-day revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants, in 85:2, 85:11, and 86:3.

The King James translation in the 2 Thessalonians verse has “falling away,” a phrase that is widely understood in the Church to mean apostasy. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Meadowchik]

31 minutes ago, Judd said:

Though I’d dispute some of what you said, for argument’s sake I’ll take it at face value and state that some may superficially reach that conclusion, but anyone who’s taken a nuanced look at this over time, as someone like Sam Young, or anyone who’s been around long enough to be a bishop, would know know this is false in its context. Essentially, he’s preying on people’s ignorance because he feels it’s an appropriate impassioning tool. Not a great look for someone claiming to be beating on the doors of truth and transparency. But the look doesn’t much matter, as those who know better don’t seem to be the ones he’s targeting and emboldening himself upon. 

Although I can appreciate some of his goals, I'm not very fond of Sam Young. Regardless, it's not hard to believe that he or others like him have been told such things by earnest believers, all due to the church teachings.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Although I can appreciate some of his goals, I'm not very fond of Sam Young. Regardless, it's not hard to believe that he or others like him have been told such things by earnest believers, all due to the church teachings.

As Judd pointed out, he has been around long enough to know better. 
 

I’m not acquainted with a single bishop or ex-bishop who would make the outlandish claim that Latter-day Saint belief holds that apostasy (as commonly understood) is worse than murder. 
 

Young is simply bearing false witness. 
 

And so is anyone who attributes such a claim to “the Church teachings.”

Edited December 23, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

Scripturally, or authoritatively, what is denying the Holy Ghost?    HOw would a Sam YOung express to the rest of the world what is meant by Mormons who claim apostasy, or as some have put it here, a form of it called denying the Holy Ghost is worse than murder?  

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Scripturally, or authoritatively, what is denying the Holy Ghost?   

See above.

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

HOw would a Sam YOung express to the rest of the world what is meant by Mormons who claim apostasy, or as some have put it here, a form of it called denying the Holy Ghost is worse than murder?  

Well, avoiding flagrant misrepresentation and distortion would be a good first step.

Thanks,

-Smac

[stemelbow]

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

See above.

 

What above?  I see someone say denying the Holy Ghost is a form of apostasy--even suggesting some forms of apostasy are worse than murder.  Pogi says "one should not conflate apostasy with Denying the Holy Ghost."  

What would conflating the two be if one form of apostasy is denying the Holy Ghost?   If denying the Holy Ghost is not apostasy then what is it?  How would we know?  

It does appear there are disagreements on this matter among faithful members.  I don't think that means Sam Young should be excoriated for it.   

[Calm]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

What above?  I see someone say denying the Holy Ghost is a form of apostasy--even suggesting some forms of apostasy are worse than murder.  Pogi says "one should not conflate apostasy with Denying the Holy Ghost."  

What would conflating the two be if one form of apostasy is denying the Holy Ghost?   If denying the Holy Ghost is not apostasy then what is it?  How would we know?  

It does appear there are disagreements on this matter among faithful members.  I don't think that means Sam Young should be excoriated for it.   

It is like saying a person thinks abuse is worse than murder because one form of abuse (extreme physical torture for example) is considered as worse by someone.  And then in the conversation the context of abuse is about bullying.....bullying is not the same as ripping out fingernails, starvation, imprisonment with rape, and worse.

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Quote

See above.

What above?  I see someone say denying the Holy Ghost is a form of apostasy--even suggesting some forms of apostasy are worse than murder.  Pogi says "one should not conflate apostasy with Denying the Holy Ghost."  

The Church's has a concept of a sin that is worse than murder.  Equating that concept with "apostasy" is simply bad faith by Sam Young.  

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What would conflating the two be if one form of apostasy is denying the Holy Ghost?  

I don't understand this question.

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

If denying the Holy Ghost is not apostasy then what is it?  How would we know?  

Again, see above.

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It does appear there are disagreements on this matter among faithful members. 

Not really.

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't think that means Sam Young should be excoriated for it.   

Okay.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Jeanne]

53 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Scripturally, or authoritatively, what is denying the Holy Ghost?    HOw would a Sam YOung express to the rest of the world what is meant by Mormons who claim apostasy, or as some have put it here, a form of it called denying the Holy Ghost is worse than murder?  

Sadly, I have always felt this way in the mormon way of looking at my own resignation.  That others would see me as in outer darkness..yet, I haven't never denied anything that I have FELT in the church.  The leaving is devastating unless you have real courage and distinct personal knowledge of what you think is right and wrong.

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is like saying a person thinks abuse is worse than murder because one form of abuse (extreme physical torture for example) is considered as worse by someone.  And then in the conversation the context of abuse is about bullying.....bullying is not the same as ripping out fingernails, starvation, imprisonment with rape, and worse.

whew...that was kind of graphic.  I'd say there's been some ups and downs on these matters in the Church, as spoken by leaders at different times.  Its no wonder that faithful saints will, in some measure, see denying the Holy Ghost as a form of apostasy and yet others will cry it is no form of apostasy.  BUt again, I don't think that means we should excoriate each other for such difference of opinion.  It is an interesting comparison considering Church teachings though--often the ultimate form of apostasy that some say is denying the Holy Ghost is worse than murder, and is comparable to murdering the most innocent person of all.  

Of course in the day of judgment many will come to the Lord thinking they did good things for him and tried to follow him, but will be coldly tell them that he never knew them, denying the notion that ever really heard their prayers or considered their personal pleas to HIm.  Or in that day, many will come to Jesus and get spewed from his mouth due to their being lukewarm.  Seems pretty callous and quite comparable to the notion that people who deny their Holy Ghost experience may be worse off in eternity than someone who might have murdered another (like Nephi).  

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The Church's has a concept of a sin that is worse than murder.  Equating that concept with "apostasy" is simply bad faith by Sam Young.  

Let's consider what Joseph Smith purportedly said on the topic:

Quote

What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin?  He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him.

so the elements are:

1.  Receive the Holy Ghost--perhaps getting the ordinance of the gift of the Holy GHost.  Check

2.  Have the heavens opened unto him--what might that entail?  The heavens literally opened?  Or the heavens figuratively opened?  Did, for instance, Joseph ever have the heavens literally opened?  It seems many a member claims to have the heavens figuratively opened to them, as they bask in the blessing of being LDS and communicating heavenward.  Check.

3.  know God?  That is a very common claim among LDS--knowing God.  so check.  

4. Then sin against him.  Well we all sin against him, so this is a given.  Check.  

These 4 elements together seem to clearly define what apostasy is.  

So what's the big deal here?  

[stemelbow]

17 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Sadly, I have always felt this way in the mormon way of looking at my own resignation.  That others would see me as in outer darkness..yet, I haven't never denied anything that I have FELT in the church.  The leaving is devastating unless you have real courage and distinct personal knowledge of what you think is right and wrong.

No doubt, once you leave, you get the feeling that many members do think you've done worse than murder.  I grant, not all, but some.

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Let's consider what Joseph Smith purportedly said on the topic:

so the elements are:

1.  Receive the Holy Ghost--perhaps getting the ordinance of the gift of the Holy GHost.  Check

2.  Have the heavens opened unto him--what might that entail?  The heavens literally opened?  Or the heavens figuratively opened?  Did, for instance, Joseph ever have the heavens literally opened?  It seems many a member claims to have the heavens figuratively opened to them, as they bask in the blessing of being LDS and communicating heavenward.  Check.

3.  know God?  That is a very common claim among LDS--knowing God.  so check.  

4. Then sin against him.  Well we all sin against him, so this is a given.  Check.  

These 4 elements together seem to clearly define what apostasy is.  

So what's the big deal here?  

Yes, it seems that apostasy is clearly considered most grave according to Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball, and Brigham Young, to start. Apostasy seemed to face harsher criticisms than murder.

One might have a different opinion on it, sure, but it is understandably a reasonable conclusion drawn from authoritative priesthood of the church.

[JAHS]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Let's consider what Joseph Smith purportedly said on the topic:

so the elements are:

1.  Receive the Holy Ghost--perhaps getting the ordinance of the gift of the Holy GHost.  Check

2.  Have the heavens opened unto him--what might that entail?  The heavens literally opened?  Or the heavens figuratively opened?  Did, for instance, Joseph ever have the heavens literally opened?  It seems many a member claims to have the heavens figuratively opened to them, as they bask in the blessing of being LDS and communicating heavenward.  Check.

3.  know God?  That is a very common claim among LDS--knowing God.  so check.  

4. Then sin against him.  Well we all sin against him, so this is a given.  Check.  

These 4 elements together seem to clearly define what apostasy is.  

So what's the big deal here?  

Part of the quotation from Joseph Smith is missing:
"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him.
He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open;
he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; "
(Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse)

This implies that the person has had an obvious vision of God, Jesus , or something similar and then deny it ever happened.  Not something figurative.  This is the sin against the Holy Ghost. Such people are the sons of perdition and are very small in number. This is not the run of the mill apostasy that thousand of people have committed. 
 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by JAHS

[smac97]

On 12/26/2019 at 2:46 PM, stemelbow said:

Let's consider what Joseph Smith purportedly said on the topic:

so the elements are:

1.  Receive the Holy Ghost--perhaps getting the ordinance of the gift of the Holy GHost.  Check

2.  Have the heavens opened unto him--what might that entail?  The heavens literally opened?  Or the heavens figuratively opened?  Did, for instance, Joseph ever have the heavens literally opened?  It seems many a member claims to have the heavens figuratively opened to them, as they bask in the blessing of being LDS and communicating heavenward.  Check.

3.  know God?  That is a very common claim among LDS--knowing God.  so check.  

4. Then sin against him.  Well we all sin against him, so this is a given.  Check.  

These 4 elements together seem to clearly define what apostasy is.  

So what's the big deal here?  

The "big deal" is bad faith.  By Sam Young.  About us.

Equating leaving the Church with the-sin-worse-than-death-that-merits-banishment-to-Outer-Darkness is bad faith.  Again, see here:

Quote

So apostasy is a part of this unpardonable sin, but certainly not the sum total of it.  There are plenty of people who "apostatize" (who "reject{} the revelations and ordinances of God, change{} the gospel of Jesus Christ, or rebel{} against the commandments of God, thereby losing the blessings of the Holy Ghost and of divine authority"), but who have not "receive{d} the Holy Ghost, ha{d} the heavens opened unto {them}, and know{n} God, and then sin{ned} against Him," who have not "den{ied} Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto {them}, and [denied} the plan of salvation with {their} eyes open to the truth of it," who have not "commit{ted} murder wherein {they} shed innocent blood, and assent unto {Christ's} death," who have not "crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame," who "were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  Those who sin against the light and knowledge of the Holy Ghost may be said to crucify more than the body of our Lord, they crucify the Spirit."

According to Latter-day Saint soteriology, apostates can apparently attain the Terrestrial Kingdom.  See here:

Quote

The terrestrial glory is for those who lived honorable lives on the earth but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus." Those who did not receive a testimony of Jesus while on earth, but who could have done so except for their neglect, are also heirs to the Terrestrial Kingdom (D&C 76:72-74, 79).

Apostates could also attain the Telestial Kingdom.  See here:

Quote

Within the telestial glory there will be varying degrees of glory even as the stars vary in brightness as we see them. It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality. They will be cleansed in the postmortal spirit world or spirit prison before the resurrection (D&C 76:81-85, 98-106; Rev. 22:15).

As noted above, even murderers attain the Telestial Kingdom.

"Outer Darkness," then, is reserved for "Sons of Perdition," or those who commit the "unpardonable sin."  See here (emphasis added):

Quote

Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, "You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance" (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain "filthy still" (D&C 29:44;88:35). It is revealed that "it had been better for them never to have been born" (D&C 76:32).

Those who become sons of perdition while in mortality will be resurrected with unglorified physical bodies and "rise to the damnation of their own filthiness" (TPJS, p. 361). Cain, thus resurrected, will then rule over the unembodied Lucifer (Moses 5:23; MD, p. 109).

It has been suggested that in the absence of the life-sustaining powers of God's Spirit, sons of perdition will eventually become disorganized and return to "native element" (JD 1:349-52; 5:271; 7:358-59). However, scripture declares that "the soul can never die" (Alma 12:20) and that in the Resurrection the spirit and the body are united "never to be divided" (Alma 11:45; cf. 12:18; D&C 93:33). The ultimate fate of sons of perdition will be made known only to those who are partakers thereof and will not be definitely revealed until the last judgment (D&C 29:27-30;43:33;76:43-48; TPJS, p. 24).

Few individuals have been identified as sons of perdition. Although Judas is often so regarded, there is a question whether he had received the Holy Ghost sufficiently to sin against it at the time of his betrayal of Christ (John 17:12; Smith, pp. 433-34).

 

There are plenty of good and decent people who leave the Church, and who cannot be fairly characterized as more than "merely wicked," as "incorrigibly evil."

Sam Young knows this.  That Sam Young nevertheless conflates leaving the Church with becoming a Son of Perdition is prima facie evidence that he is speaking in bad faith.  He is bearing false witness.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 28, 2019 by smac97