Apostasy is worse than murder

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Where does that leave me according the the passage above?

There is no question whatsoever that full forgiveness and fellowship again with the saints is not beyond your reach. 

[pogi]

44 minutes ago, california boy said:

According to Church leaders, I am in a constant state of apostasy and they have assigned me to outer darkness to be a minion of Satan. 

CFR

[california boy]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

CFR

According to D&C 76 all sins, including the sin of murder, may eventually be forgiven, the lone exception being the sin of total apostasy, which is commonly known as the unpardonable or the sin against the Holy Ghost. The following two verses may be the source the individual had in mind...

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)

 

Just curious,  if after I die and I still love my partner, where do you think the Church leaders believe I will end up?

Edited December 30, 2019 by california boy

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

So the question in what does altogether turn away from it mean?  Take myself. Member for all me life, MP holder, RM, endowed, sealed in temple, have held many positions including bishop and HC. 

 

I don't believe the cliams of the church anymore and doubt I ever will again. But I am open to anything really as what a skeptical seeker of truth. I am still a member but no longer attend or hold a temple recommend and I no longer tithe. But I am still a member and I have no plans to have my name removed. Nor do I actively seek to dissuade others and in fact when the very few members of my ward (only my bishop and one other member) have inquired as to why I am not attending I ask them how much they want to know about my position and why because i have no desire to cast doubt to anyone else.  But if they want to know I will talk to them about it.

Where does that leave me according the the passage above?

In order to become a total apostate (a son of perdition), one must have a sure knowledge that God the Father and Jesus Christ exist but be filled with a hatred toward them that’s so complete, implacable and utterly unquenchable that they no longer have even the slightest ability to repent. The degree of hatred for God and Christ possessed by these individuals is so all-consuming and irreversible that the central focus of their existence is an insane desire to murder God and thereby extinguish his existence,  or, short of that, dethrone and banish him forever.

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. (D&C 76)

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

According to D&C 76 all sins, including the sin of murder, may eventually be forgiven, the lone exception being the sin of total apostasy, which is commonly known as the unpardonable or the sin against the Holy Ghost. The following two verses may be the source the individual had in mind...

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)

 

Just curious,  if after I die and I still love my partner, where do you think the Church leaders believe I will end up?

Do you think most Church leaders believe you can repent of any sin you might have committed so far and come back to the Church?  That it might be hard, even very hard in their view, but still possible?

Edited December 30, 2019 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

More light comes through, when you've taken back the authority for yourselves.

Absolutely false.

Idolization of self is the antithesis of a course towards God.  Just ask Jesus.  Thy will, not mine.  Always.

[california boy]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you think most Church leaders believe you can repent of any sin you might have committed so far and come back to the Church?

Yes, but if I want to stay committed to the person I love, where do you think Church leaders think I will end up.  Because on this earth, they think that is apostasy.  So in all likelihood I will die an apostate.

Edited December 30, 2019 by california boy

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, california boy said:

According to D&C 76 all sins, including the sin of murder, may eventually be forgiven, the lone exception being the sin of total apostasy, which is commonly known as the unpardonable or the sin against the Holy Ghost. The following two verses may be the source the individual had in mind...

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)

 

Just curious,  if after I die and I still love my partner, where do you think the Church leaders believe I will end up?

Do you believe that church leaders would reject you if you wanted to come back in full-fellowship?

If not, then how can you say the leaders are accusing you of the unpardonable sin in this life and the next?

Have you read D&C 76?  Ya, you don’t qualify as a son of perdition!  But I am guessing you already know this about our doctrine.  You know what we really believe, so why do you insist on cherry picking one passage and taking out of context with the scriptures to paint our leaders in a light that you know is not a true depiction of their beliefs and doctrines.  You know that they would tell you that the atonement is within full reach for you if you desired - you therefore CANNOT be a son of perdition or go to outer darkness.

As to your last question, the leaders wouldn’t even attempt to make such a judgment, and have in fact been commanded not to.  But we can eliminate 2 options - Celestial kingdom and outer darkness.  The atonement still applies to you too.  You are not that far gone...but you know this already about our beliefs.

Edited December 30, 2019 by pogi

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Absolutely false.

Idolization of self is the antithesis of a course towards God.  Just ask Jesus.  Thy will, not mine.  Always.

I didn't word it right, par for the course. I mean take the authority back as far as my ability to commune with the Lord however I might be able to without a middle man, the church's current prophet.

[InCognitus]

29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I didn't word it right, par for the course. I mean take the authority back as far as my ability to commune with the Lord however I might be able to without a middle man, the church's current prophet.

But here's the thing about that so-called "middle man".  Contrary to the Protestant notion of "all we need is Jesus", the Savior authorized his servants to represent him, and he put a lot of weight on accepting or rejecting their authority.  For example, to the twelve apostles he said:

"He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me" (Mat 10:40).

To the seventy he said:

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." (Luke 10:16)

[california boy]

51 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you believe that church leaders would reject you if you wanted to come back in full-fellowship?

If not, then how can you say the leaders are accusing you of the unpardonable sin in this life and the next?

Have you read D&C 76?  Ya, you don’t qualify as a son of perdition!  But I am guessing you already know this about our doctrine.  You know what we really believe, so why do you insist on cherry picking one passage and taking out of context with the scriptures to paint our leaders in a light that you know is not a true depiction of their beliefs and doctrines.  You know that they would tell you that the atonement is within full reach for you if you desired - you therefore CANNOT be a son of perdition or go to outer darkness.

As to your last question, the leaders wouldn’t even attempt to make such a judgment, and have in fact been commanded not to.  But we can eliminate 2 options - Celestial kingdom and outer darkness.  The atonement still applies to you too.  You are not that far gone...but you know this already about our beliefs.

Honestly Pogi, Church leaders have told me so many conflicting things about what will happen if I don't give up my partner and return, I really am not clear what the Church teaches these days.  I am not trying to troll the thread, I honestly don't know what the Church teaches in 2019.  You are right, it was my understanding when I was active in the church that I could not be a Son of Perdition.  Now I am not so clear, and I really have lost any kind of concern what the Church leaders believe.  

Am I really not that far gone according to Church leaders if I don't give up my partner and die still deeply in love and committed to him?  Do you have something I could read what the Church now teaches?  Because last time I talked to priesthood leaders about this 20+ years ago, it seemed pretty grim.  When I left the Church, it was pretty clear: When you choose to leave the Church and fall in love with a guy, you are walking away from God, or at least what Church leaders think is the will of God.

I don't intend to ever leave my partner.  I will die an apostate.  Doesn't Church leaders teach that separates me from God for eternity?

Edited December 30, 2019 by california boy

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, california boy said:

Honestly Pogi, Church leaders have told me so many conflicting things about what will happen if I don't give up my partner and return, I really am not clear what the Church teaches these days.  I am not trying to troll the thread, I honestly don't know what the Church teaches in 2019.  You are right, it was my understanding when I was active in the church that I could not be a Son of Perdition.  Now I am not so clear, and I really have lost any kind of concern what the Church leaders believe.  

Am I really not that far gone according to Church leaders if I don't give up my partner and die still deeply in love and committed to him?  Do you have something I could read what the Church now teaches?  Because last time I talked to priesthood leaders about this 20+ years ago, it seemed pretty grim.  When I left the Church, it was pretty clear: When you choose to leave the Church and fall in love with a guy, you are walking away from God, or at least what Church leaders think is the will of God.

I don't intend to ever leave my partner.  I will die an apostate.  Doesn't Church leaders teach that separates me from God for eternity?

The doctrine has not changed since it was revealed.

When you left the church, did they tell you you can’t come back or be forgiven?  Did they call you a son of perdition or tell you that you are bound for outer darkness to be a “minion of Satan”?

I’m not sure why you think the doctrine has changed.

I just want to make this point because that is a serious mischaracterization of the church and can be very unfairly and negatively influential on people who don’t know better.  

Let’s be more careful and paint the church in a fair light.  Unless they actually told you that you are going to “outer darkness”, it’s not fair at all to claim that they did.  That simply is not true about our beliefs and doctrine.  We are perhaps one of the most gracious religions I know of in terms of our doctrines on the reach of the atonement and nearly universal salvation.  We deserve credit where it is due.

Edited December 30, 2019 by pogi

[Calm]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Yes, but if I want to stay committed to the person I love, where do you think Church leaders think I will end up.  Because on this earth, they think that is apostasy.  So in all likelihood I will die an apostate.

I think some will assume Terrestrial if you are monogamous as they may see you as blinded by the craftiness of men into thinking such a relationship is holy or worthy or good or however you wish to describe it and others will assume Telestial as it is a same sex relationship and they view that as fornication no matter what.

I can’t think of anyone these days that would think you are going to outer darkness since you have stated you don’t believe the leaders have the truth about how same sex relationships should be viewed.  So you may be rebelling in somethings, but not all  and in your view you are not even rebelling against God, but only leaders who are not listening to God...plus I suspect there is no reason in most members’ views that the rebellion will automatically continue forever once you are fully aware of God’s truth and available blessings.

Apostasy does not equal perdition. If it did, there would be no assumption that apostates could return to the Church. There would be no posthumous restoration of blessings either. 

We have two known examples of Perdition in the scriptures and those are Satan and Cain, both of whom had a personal relationship with God as intimate as any prophet and likely more so than some. 

I think it may be rather prideful to assume one’s level of rebellion against God is seen as on par with either Satan or Cain’s efforts.  I don’t understand the need some people have to define themselves as Perdition in the Church’s eyes.  

Edited December 30, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

55 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

But here's the thing about that so-called "middle man".  Contrary to the Protestant notion of "all we need is Jesus", the Savior authorized his servants to represent him, and he put a lot of weight on accepting or rejecting their authority.  For example, to the twelve apostles he said:

"He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me" (Mat 10:40).

To the seventy he said:

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." (Luke 10:16)

Totally out of context IMO. Our prophet and apostles aren't anything like the original twelve, read the passages in Matthew 10, and see what you think. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10&version=KJV

Same with Luke chapter 10, please read through again. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=KJV

Edited December 30, 2019 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Totally out of context IMO. Our prophet and apostles aren't anything like the original twelve, read the passages in Matthew 10, and see what you think. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10&version=KJV

Same with Luke chapter 10, please read through again. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=KJV

I beg to differ. The prophet and apostles hold the same apostolic office as the members of the original twelve. The president of the Church holds the place that Peter held as chief apostle after the death of the Lord in mortality. 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Totally out of context IMO. Our prophet and apostles aren't anything like the original twelve, read the passages in Matthew 10, and see what you think. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10&version=KJV

Same with Luke chapter 10, please read through again. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=KJV

My point was about the purpose of the "middle man", whoever that might be.  I used those verses to point out that Jesus placed his authority in those that he called and sent out (the apostles in Matthew 10, and the seventy in Luke 10), and he said that to receive them is the same as receiving him and his Father, and to reject one of them is to reject him or his Father.  Thus, the middle man, called and appointed by him, had his authority and was his representative.  Is that not what those verses say?  How exactly am I taking those verses out of context?  Please explain.

I think the question you are raising (which is different than the point I was making) is whether or not the apostles and prophets of today have been called and given authority by Jesus, or not.  That is the question we all need to answer.  But the people at the time of Jesus had to grapple with the same issue.  Lots of people rejected his servants (just like they do today), and some even put them to death because they thought in doing so they were doing God a service.  

BTW:  The Lord said the same thing of his servants in the latter days (Doctrine and Covenants 84:36–37).

Edited December 30, 2019 by InCognitus

[Calm]

This is rather good for a podcast:

Unless you have taken to hanging out with Satan or Cain after first being best buds with Christ, I think you are fooling yourself thinking you qualify for the title “sons of perdition” by standards of the Restored Gospel. 

The podcast quotes SWK as saying the rank and file of the Church aren’t really eligible for this role. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Calm

[california boy]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The doctrine has not changed since it was revealed.

Actually a LOT has changed since I left the Church.  What the Church believes about being gay has changed.  I believe that my family would not have reacted the way they did if I came out today.  And that was them trying their best to do what the Church wanted them to do.  

I was excommunicated because I could not commit to never falling in love with someone of the same sex.  And even today, I am considered an apostate.  So all the ramifications of what it means to be an apostate has not changed as you pointed out.

Quote

When you left the church, did they tell you you can’t come back or be forgiven?  

I don't think you see this from my perspective.  I am gay.  I love someone of the same sex. I can never go back to the Church as long as I am in that relationship.  Given that, can I ever be forgiven?

Quote

Did they call you a son of perdition or tell you that you are bound for outer darkness to be a “minion of Satan”?

No.  And I didn't really think that until someone posted those verses from the D&C which is why I posted on this thread.

 

Quote

I’m not sure why you think the doctrine has changed.

So what is the doctrine?  What will happen to me after I die?

Quote

I just want to make this point because that is a serious mischaracterization of the church and can be very unfairly and negatively influential on people who don’t know better.  

Let’s be more careful and paint the church in a fair light.  Unless they actually told you that you are going to “outer darkness”, it’s not fair at all to claim that they did.  That simply is not true about our beliefs and doctrine.  We are perhaps one of the most gracious religions I know of in terms of our doctrines on the reach of the atonement and nearly universal salvation.  We deserve credit where it is due.

You know your experience with the Church is vastly different than mine.  From where I have been, the Church puts a pretty bad light on gay families and their. children. They have put a pretty bad light on just about everything I have done since I have left the Church.  It is the Church that labels me as an apostate. Can you acknowledge that?  Maybe you can tell me what you think that means.  

And honestly I don't see how I fit into this "Plan of Happiness".  Sure the plan is great if you are straight, not so good if you are gay.  Would you say that is a fair characterization of the Church?  

Edited December 30, 2019 by california boy

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think some will assume Terrestrial if you are monogamous as they may see you as blinded by the craftiness of men into thinking such a relationship is holy or worthy or good or however you wish to describe it and others will assume Telestial as it is a same sex relationship and they view that as fornication no matter what.

I can’t think of anyone these days that would think you are going to outer darkness since you have stated you don’t believe the leaders have the truth about how same sex relationships should be viewed.  So you may be rebelling in somethings, but not all  and in your view you are not even rebelling against God, but only leaders who are not listening to God...plus I suspect there is no reason in most members’ views that the rebellion will automatically continue forever once you are fully aware of God’s truth and available blessings.

Apostasy does not equal perdition. If it did, there would be no assumption that apostates could return to the Church. There would be no posthumous restoration of blessings either. 

We have two known examples of Perdition in the scriptures and those are Satan and Cain, both of whom had a personal relationship with God as intimate as any prophet and likely more so than some. 

I think it may be rather prideful to assume one’s level of rebellion against God is seen as on par with either Satan or Cain’s efforts.  I don’t understand the need some people have to define themselves as Perdition in the Church’s eyes.  

I think I need to be clear.  The reason I made the first post in this thread is because of the post from D&C that was previously posted.  

Quote

 

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)

 

My understanding about the sons of perdition was as you and others  have expressed it here.  After reading the scripture, I wondered if things had changed so I made the post to try and understand what the person making that post was saying and why it was posted in a thread about apostasy. It sounded like just being an apostate was a qualifier since I have broken my covenants and altogether turned away.  That pretty much describes me.   I figured this thread was a good place to try and understand if things had changed.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Sure doesn't look good for the endowed former believer, unlike what most have said on here, right?

What level of covenant knowledge do you think would be required to turn altogether  away from it? Seems quite consistent with denying the sun is shining while looking at it.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

That depends on what light you speak of...sometimes someone gains more light outside of the circle, or mindset. Some that are told that they are going to outer darkness or that they should only believe one faith or else, are more in the dark than those that step out into the light.  More light comes through, when you've taken back the authority for yourselves.

I do not know anyone who has been told they are going to outer darkness. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Just curious,  if after I die and I still love my partner, where do you think the Church leaders believe I will end up?

I can’t speak for them, but I think that judgement will be made by Heavenly Father. It will be between you, Him, and your Advocate. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I didn't word it right, par for the course. I mean take the authority back as far as my ability to commune with the Lord however I might be able to without a middle man, the church's current prophet.

If scriptures and the prophet are inadequate, what is the authority you are referring to? How does one learn about it?

Edited December 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Given that, can I ever be forgiven?

Forgiveness can be given to those who aren't members.  Repentance is part of the process of membership, but not limited to membership.

And all those in the Telestial Kingdom do not repent and thus must suffer for their own sins...and yet they are not considered Sons of Perdition and are destined for a Kingdom of Glory.

[Calm]

 

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think I need to be clear.  The reason I made the first post in this thread is because of the post from D&C that was previously posted.  

My understanding about the sons of perdition was as you and others  have expressed it here.  After reading the scripture, I wondered if things had changed so I made the post to try and understand what the person making that post was saying and why it was posted in a thread about apostasy. It sounded like just being an apostate was a qualifier since I have broken my covenants and altogether turned away.  That pretty much describes me.   I figured this thread was a good place to try and understand if things had changed.

But you haven't turned altogether away from your own description of your belief in God. You don't even seem to have come close. You have only rejected a few of the teachings of the Gospel...important ones, but not all of them or the most important as you love God and love your neighbours to the best of your ability it seems to me.  Iirc, you have even said you are supportive of your children attending if they desire to.

Why do you think you are interpreting your own actions in such a black and white manner, so absolute that you say "altogether" describes you?

Edited December 30, 2019 by Calm