Apostasy is worse than murder

[smac97]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Quote

Honestly, I don't think Latter-day Saints are big into labeling things as "blasphemous."

And irreligiosity isn't viewed as "scary," either.  It's a fairly common thing, actually.

It depends who you're talking to I guess. 

No, I don't think it does.  "Blasphemy" is a rarity in our lexicon.  And irreligiosity is not characterized as "scary."

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The current leaders seem to frequently espouse the fallen state of those who choose other paths and how saddened they are when people succumb to the evils of this world. 

"Espouse?"  Not sure that's the word you meant to use.

In any event, "the current leaders" do not characterize those who lose faith as "scary."

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

As if someone outside the boundaries of the "true church" is somehow lost.  

Latter-day Saint soteriology posits that saving ordinances and fellowship in the Church (which we believe to be the Lord's) is very important.

But "lost"?  C'mon.  

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Punishments like those listed in scripture in this thread for those who deny the HG or who lose their faith when scriptures warnings are interpreted in a literal sense. 

They are?

"Punishments" amount essentially to a loss of blessings that the individual would have otherwise received.  

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The thought of a God that cares about such things as denying the HG and punishments for getting out of line in any literal sense.  Very human and tribalistic.  

Almost as "human and tribalistic" as you coming here and disparaging our beliefs to our faces (other descriptors also come to mind...).

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Those other statements by church leaders aren't part of the Gospel.  Thats my point. 

I don't know what you are referencing here.  What "other statements"?

Thanks,

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No, I don't think it does.  "Blasphemy" is a rarity in our lexicon.  And irreligiosity is not characterized as "scary."

"Espouse?"  Not sure that's the word you meant to use.

In any event, "the current leaders" do not characterize those who lose faith as "scary."

Latter-day Saint soteriology posits that saving ordinances and fellowship in the Church (which we believe to be the Lord's) is very important.

But "lost"?  C'mon.  

They are?

"Punishments" amount essentially to a loss of blessings that the individual would have otherwise received.  

Almost as "human and tribalistic" as you coming here and disparaging our beliefs to our faces (other descriptors also come to mind...).

I don't know what you are referencing here.  What "other statements"?

Thanks,

-Smac

Seems like we aren’t connecting well.  It’s been a nostalgic look back at what used to be interesting discussion for me.  But I’ve changed.  No animosity towards you in any sense.  I just don’t see the point.  I’ll be taking my apostate views to church tomorrow morning, uplifting some, confusing others no doubt, and doing it all with a wolflike smile.  

[smac97]

36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Seems like we aren’t connecting well.  

Yeah.  Not very.

36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

It’s been a nostalgic look back at what used to be interesting discussion for me.  But I’ve changed. 

Right.  You've transcended "tribalism."  Or something.

36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

No animosity towards you in any sense.  I just don’t see the point.  

Well, you're here.  So there must be some point.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Seems like we aren’t connecting well.  It’s been a nostalgic look back at what used to be interesting discussion for me.  But I’ve changed.  No animosity towards you in any sense.  I just don’t see the point.  I’ll be taking my apostate views to church tomorrow morning, uplifting some, confusing others no doubt, and doing it all with a wolflike smile.  

Wolf-like? Sounds a bit arrogant.
Why not just go your way and make the best of the new-found freedom and happiness?

Edited December 29, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[hope_for_things]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Wolf-like? Sounds a bit arrogant.
Why not just go your way and make the best of the new-found freedom and happiness?

The wolflike comment was meant to be humorous.  
As for my membership, I have just as much a place at the table as anyone else, and I get value out of my experiences and the relationships, why should I leave those things just because some people might not agree with my perspective? 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

The wolflike comment was meant to be humorous.  
As for my membership, I have just as much a place at the table as anyone else, and I get value out of my experiences and the relationships, why should I leave those things just because some people might not agree with my perspective? 

Why would you come to a church in order to take pleasure in confusing people? I truly do not understand.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[hope_for_things]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why would you come to a church in order to take pleasure in confusing people? I truly do not understand.

I’m not taking pleasure in confusing some, I’m just acknowledging that it’s a possibility and that I’m not worried about it because it’s unavoidable.  
 

What are you looking for in a church community?  Do you want group think and unanimity?  

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

What are you looking for in a church community?  Do you want group think and unanimity?  

A shared system of beliefs is not the same as groupthink.

I expect common beliefs among the Church community.  A belief in scripture, the restored gospel and priesthood authority at a bare minimum.

Those who disbelieve, attempt to losen testimonies, or seek to criticize those beliefs are not being "free thinkers".  

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

A shared system of beliefs is not the same as groupthink.

I expect common beliefs among the Church community.  A belief in scripture, the restored gospel and priesthood authority at a bare minimum.

Those who disbelieve, attempt to losen testimonies, or seek to criticize those beliefs are not being "free thinkers".  

I agree that there ought to be some common concepts but what those concepts are is going to vary.  I personally find a lot in common with my fellow members.  As for how to interact with others that’s a challenge all of us face, it’s not unique to my situation.  Hopefully we are all engaged in trying to build others up in positive ways while also being authentic to our values, coupled with a strong dose of humility.  I learn a lot from my fellow saints. 
 

Stereotyping those who disbelieve doesn’t seem very charitable from my perspective.  Besides, what does it mean to disbelieve anyway?  I don’t think of myself as a disbeliever.  I have beliefs just like everyone else.  

Edited December 29, 2019 by hope_for_things

[InCognitus]

44 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

What are you looking for in a church community?  Do you want group think and unanimity?  

I see it as a people united to assist one another to reach a common goal.  The goal is to attain eternal life and participate in building the Kingdom of God, to further the work of our Heavenly Father.

That doesn’t mean everyone thinks alike or has exactly the same opinions, but we do have the same goals. 

The rules (commandments) we’ve been given are to help us achieve those goals.  And individuals who don’t follow the rules don’t get the same opportunities as those who do.  The so called “punishment” for not following the rules is not something Heavenly Father does to the person (he’s not that kind of God), it is that they are “cut off” from among the people that do follow the rules.  Their punishment is their own disappointment.  It is their own doing.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I’m not taking pleasure in confusing some, I’m just acknowledging that it’s a possibility and that I’m not worried about it because it’s unavoidable.  
 

What are you looking for in a church community?  Do you want group think and unanimity?  

You joked about taking pleasure in making people uncomfortable at church. Perhaps someone in authority who is calling the folks to repentance would do that. Would that be your motivation? I don’t understand why one would take pleasure in that or even anticipate that they would do it. 
 

I recall what Jesus said about contention and lack of unity in his church. I wouldn’t be looking for those things at church, nor would I revel in creating them when I attended. Being united in love and faith and seeking fellowship is hardly groupthink.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I see it as a people united to assist one another to reach a common goal.  The goal is to attain eternal life and participate in building the Kingdom of God, to further the work of our Heavenly Father.

That doesn’t mean everyone thinks alike or has exactly the same opinions, but we do have the same goals. 

The rules (commandments) we’ve been given are to help us achieve those goals.  And individuals who don’t follow the rules don’t get the same opportunities as those who do.  The so called “punishment” for not following the rules is not something Heavenly Father does to the person (he’s not that kind of God), it is that they are “cut off” from among the people that do follow the rules.  Their punishment is their own disappointment.  It is their own doing.

I see myself as part of that relational group effort and as having much in common when it comes to goals broadly defined.  I’m just not a literalist and don’t believe in the supernatural.  

[hope_for_things]

39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You joked about taking pleasure in making people uncomfortable at church. Perhaps someone in authority who is calling the folks to repentance would do that. Would that be your motivation? I don’t understand why one would take pleasure in that or even anticipate that they would do it. 
 

I recall what Jesus said about contention and lack of unity in his church. I wouldn’t be looking for those things at church, nor would I revel in creating them when I attended. Being united in love and faith and seeking fellowship is hardly groupthink.

You misread my point, I don’t take pleasure in confusing others and I tried to correct your misunderstanding last post.  
 

I also am not worried about authority as much as the average active member.  I try to contribute In positive ways and I get a lot of encouraging feedback from others at church, and that is how I measure my approach.  You seem to be internationally misunderstanding me, hopefully this helps clarify. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

You misread my point, I don’t take pleasure in confusing others and I tried to correct your misunderstanding last post.  
 

I also am not worried about authority as much as the average active member.  I try to contribute In positive ways and I get a lot of encouraging feedback from others at church, and that is how I measure my approach.  You seem to be internationally misunderstanding me, hopefully this helps clarify. 

Just reacting to what you write. Words like “blasphemy, scary, scare tactics, I don’t care, apostate views, wolf-like grin, groupthink, unavoidable confusion, supernatural,” etc., send a mixed message.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[hope_for_things]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Just reacting to what you write. Words like apostate views, wolf-like grin, groupthink, unavoidable confusion, etc., supernatural, etc., send a mixed message.

 

I’m trying to share a honest perspective about what I actually believe.  No insults intended.  

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I’m trying to share a honest perspective about what I actually believe.  No insults intended.  

Yep.

[Teancum]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:43 PM, teddyaware said:

According to D&C 76 all sins, including the sin of murder, may eventually be forgiven, the lone exception being the sin of total apostasy, which is commonly known as the unpardonable or the sin against the Holy Ghost. The following two verses may be the source the individual had in mind...

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)

 

So the question in what does altogether turn away from it mean?  Take myself. Member for all me life, MP holder, RM, endowed, sealed in temple, have held many positions including bishop and HC. 

 

I don't believe the cliams of the church anymore and doubt I ever will again. But I am open to anything really as what a skeptical seeker of truth. I am still a member but no longer attend or hold a temple recommend and I no longer tithe. But I am still a member and I have no plans to have my name removed. Nor do I actively seek to dissuade others and in fact when the very few members of my ward (only my bishop and one other member) have inquired as to why I am not attending I ask them how much they want to know about my position and why because i have no desire to cast doubt to anyone else.  But if they want to know I will talk to them about it.

Where does that leave me according the the passage above?

[Teancum]

On 12/22/2019 at 2:31 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

In many Muslim countries, apostasy from Islam is punishable by death.

 

Personally I would not use Islam and its approach to apostasy as a pattern to follow. In fact it is a good reason to reject Islam and this, with many other things, a reason to disdain it as an extremely dangerous religion that thwarts much of the well being of those who follow it as well as possibly all humanity.

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So the question in what does altogether turn away from it mean?  Take myself. Member for all me life, MP holder, RM, endowed, sealed in temple, have held many positions including bishop and HC. 

 

I don't believe the cliams of the church anymore and doubt I ever will again. But I am open to anything really as what a skeptical seeker of truth. I am still a member but no longer attend or hold a temple recommend and I no longer tithe. But I am still a member and I have no plans to have my name removed. Nor do I actively seek to dissuade others and in fact when the very few members of my ward (only my bishop and one other member) have inquired as to why I am not attending I ask them how much they want to know about my position and why because i have no desire to cast doubt to anyone else.  But if they want to know I will talk to them about it.

Where does that leave me according the the passage above?

Seems to me that is a question you’ll have to answer for yourself. Have you broken the covenant? Do you even believe there is a covenant? If so, what can be done about it? If not, why worry about it?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Seems to me that is a question you’ll have to answer for yourself. Have you broken the covenant? Do you even believe there is a covenant? If so, what can be done about it? If not, why worry about it?

Sure doesn't look good for the endowed former believer, unlike what most have said on here, right?

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sure doesn't look good for the endowed former believer, unlike what most have said on here, right?

You are correct that the higher you climb and the more light you turn against the further the fall.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is a good reason to reject Islam and this, with many other things, a reason to disdain it as an extremely dangerous religion that thwarts much of the well being of those who follow it as well as possibly all humanity.

Ouch. Two weeks ago, I took our stake president to meet the new imam who shepherds the Muslim community that I am closest to. They are currently meeting in a temporary space but have secured a block of land for a mosque, which they hope to start building next year. Our good stake president volunteered our members to help with the labour. He also volunteered our chapel for any meetings too large for their current space. I much prefer that approach to our neighbours. 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You are correct that the higher you climb and the more light you turn against the further the fall.

That depends on what light you speak of...sometimes someone gains more light outside of the circle, or mindset. Some that are told that they are going to outer darkness or that they should only believe one faith or else, are more in the dark than those that step out into the light.  More light comes through, when you've taken back the authority for yourselves.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Tacenda

[Metis_LDS]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don't believe the cliams of the church anymore and doubt I ever will again. But I am open to anything really as what a skeptical seeker of truth. I am still a member but no longer attend or hold a temple recommend and I no longer tithe. But I am still a member and I have no plans to have my name removed. Nor do I actively seek to dissuade others and in fact when the very few members of my ward (only my bishop and one other member) have inquired as to why I am not attending I ask them how much they want to know about my position and why because i have no desire to cast doubt to anyone else.  But if they want to know I will talk to them about it.

Where does that leave me according the the passage above?

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)                                                                                                                                                                                       There is an element of harshness in all of humanity.  I see it and feel it.  We project this at our peril onto the Lord.  The above quoted scripture is True.   What we lack is faith in how it is applied.  I know for sure that persons such as you describe yourself the Lord at some point will entreat with tender mercies beyond anything that could be misunderstood..  When this happens if you kick away the Lords offering then yes you will isolated yourself.  Persons who really do this are not very worried about any forgiveness now or later.                                                                                Sorry Bernard I see I quoted the wrong person.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Metis_LDS

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

So the question in what does altogether turn away from it mean?  Take myself. Member for all me life, MP holder, RM, endowed, sealed in temple, have held many positions including bishop and HC. 

 

I don't believe the cliams of the church anymore and doubt I ever will again. But I am open to anything really as what a skeptical seeker of truth. I am still a member but no longer attend or hold a temple recommend and I no longer tithe. But I am still a member and I have no plans to have my name removed. Nor do I actively seek to dissuade others and in fact when the very few members of my ward (only my bishop and one other member) have inquired as to why I am not attending I ask them how much they want to know about my position and why because i have no desire to cast doubt to anyone else.  But if they want to know I will talk to them about it.

Where does that leave me according the the passage above?

For me, peace comes to my soul when I start trusting in God and stop trusting in Church leaders.  They have given me plenty of reasons to no longer trust them, but God has never given me a reason not to trust Him.  According to Church leaders, I am in a constant state of apostasy and they have assigned me to outer darkness to be a minion of Satan.  

If I have failed in the test to trust Church leaders, then a large part of that fault lies with them, and they have a lot to answer for IMO, for breaking that trust.  Where I am spiritually is a very long way aways from a murderer.  The comparison is ludicrous, and frankly. another strong reason to doubt the words of Church leaders.  Can any rational person really state that leaving the church is anything like murdering someone?  

What I do feel is a strong confirmation from God that He has a different plan for me than the one outlined by Church leaders.  There is a place for me with God.