hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 I found this interesting chapter from the teachings of Joseph Smith manual. It compares apostates to Judas, to being under the influence of Satan, and to making a choice between God and Satan, and that you can't be in a middle ground. Lots a fear mongering in here from what I can see. Just a couple quotes from it. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-27?lang=eng Quote “Strange as it may appear at first thought, yet it is no less strange than true, that notwithstanding all the professed determination to live godly, apostates after turning from the faith of Christ, unless they have speedily repented, have sooner or later fallen into the snares of the wicked one, and have been left destitute of the Spirit of God, to manifest their wickedness in the eyes of multitudes. From apostates the faithful have received the severest persecutions. Judas was rebuked and immediately betrayed his Lord into the hands of His enemies, because Satan entered into him. Quote “President Smith spoke in the afternoon [on April 9, 1837], and said in the name of the Lord that the judgments of God would rest upon those men who had professed to be his friends, and friends of humanity, and in building up Kirtland, a stake of Zion, but had turned traitors to him, and the interests of the kingdom of God, and had given power into the hands of our enemies against us; they had oppressed the poor Saints, and had brought distress upon them, and had become covenant breakers, for which they will feel the wrath of God.” Quote When the Prophet had ended telling how he had been treated, Brother Behunin remarked: ‘If I should leave this Church I would not do as those men have done: I would go to some remote place where Mormonism had never been heard of, settle down, and no one would ever learn that I knew anything about it.’ The great Seer immediately replied: ‘Brother Behunin, you don’t know what you would do. No doubt these men once thought as you do. Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.’ 2
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Seems like you are making a judgment and speaking for Deity. Sounds like one of my teenager's retorts, but it doesn't make any sense. You need to clean up your room son. No, Dad you need to clean up your room!
JAHS Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 8 hours ago, Meadowchik said: On 12/28/2019 at 9:38 AM, JAHS said: As far as this life is concerned, they aren't necessarily leaving God altogether, but they are leaving the chance for eternal life with God. Some members leave the church and join another religion that very much believes in and worships God. That has got to count for something in the eyes of God. I suppose the Terrestrial kingdom will have many of these people "who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father." (D&C 76: 77). Last I heard the Son is also God. And yet their progression is limited and they lose their families. That's a big punishment for loyalty to Christ but disloyalty to the LDS Church. Yet it is still heaven and they will be happy to be there. Like the scripture says, "for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it;" (3 Nephi 27) 2
Bernard Gui Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 59 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Whoa, I'm sorry that I can't answer every single thing asked of me here. I will say in a nutshell though, I don't believe a lot of what is said by men in the Bible actually comes from God, if I did, I'd have a terrible time believing in God/Jesus. So I may go to hell for saying so, or I may make Him glad I discounted the rotten things men have said that aren't from God at all. I'm sorry if I never really make myself clear in my posts. I have stated something after reading what dead prophets have said of apostates, and neglected to say I understand that it isn't the teaching any longer. But that is the problem with listening to apostles/prophets sometimes, such as in the Bible, how much of it actually comes from God/Jesus? That is the dangerous thing about religion, the teachings can be so harmful. I believe some apostates have been killed but probably not authorized by the leaders in the early church. Such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre wasn't ordered by BY, but IMO the sermons BY gave possibly led those that committed the atrocious crimes to kill the innocent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_and_the_Mountain_Meadows_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Reformation Several sermons by Willard Richards and George A. Smith that had been delivered earlier in the history of the LDS Church had touched on the concept of blood atonement, suggesting that apostates and those who committed certain other denounced sins, such as murder, were beyond the saving power of the blood of Christ and could be redeemed only by the voluntary shedding of their own blood. On September 21, 1856, while calling for sincere repentance by church members, Young took the idea further, and stated: "I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course."[12] As to #5 on the list. I don't know that I believe in the Great Apostasy, so therefore you may just want to ignore my posts. And #9, #10...I don't know that I said what you are CFR'd. It feels like you're putting words into my posts that I haven't said, or I could be wrong and I'll take a look at what I've said. If in fact I did do as you say, I'll definitely concede and say the church doesn't teach those things you say I said they did. I think your lawyerness (made up word) is coming through here. I'm not a jury, okay? Whatever one may think of their understanding of “blood atonement” it still allowed for the forgiveness of the most serious sins. But not for the sin against the Holy Ghost. Joseph said, “All sin shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost, for Jesus Christ will save all except the sons of perdition.” [italic bold added]
Tacenda Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 27 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I don't think we know enough about what Jesus actually said to make a judgement call about how bold Jesus was. https://www.amazon.com/dp/006063040X/?coliid=I1LZQPG7KZP60Q&colid=3DENV5AC8WEYS&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it Going to check that out, thanks!!
pogi Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Sam Young intentionally created this deceptive conflation of terms, as has been pointed out. The “worst possible sin” is the sin against the Holy Ghost. Apostasy is not the sin against the Holy Ghost. The former is forgivable and the latter is not. Under specific and extreme circumstances which have been explained here multiple times, apostasy can lead one to that end. That some misinformed, thoughtless, or unfeeling members use these words loosely does not make it our doctrine....meaning those people who make unwarranted and unwelcome judgments at funerals or other situations. Yep, it is astonishing to me that we are even having this conversation, and that it has continued on for 9 pages. You would think that if we truly believed that apostasy is the "worst possible sin one could commit" there would be at least one believing member defending Sam Young's comments - tellingly, we only see doubters who defend his comment without being able to provide any teachings to support it. 3
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 I found some more interesting quotes in the teachings of Brigham Young chapter 12. The whole chapter is interesting. I don't think we should dismiss Brigham Young's statements as representing old ideas. Remember that this book was published in recent years and was approved through the curriculum department and we can assume passed correlation and approval from church leaders. They chose the quotes to include in this chapter and therefore these have the imprimatur of sanction from modern prophets. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-12?lang=eng Quote What have the Latter-day Saints got to apostatize from? Everything that there is good, pure, holy, God-like, exalting, ennobling, extending the ideas, the capacities of the intelligent beings that our Heavenly Father has brought forth upon this earth. What will they receive in exchange? I can comprehend it in a very few words. These would be the words that I should use: death, hell and the grave. That is what they will get in exchange. We may go into the particulars of that which they experience. They experience darkness, ignorance, doubt, pain, sorrow, grief, mourning, unhappiness; no person to condole [lament] with in the hour of trouble, no arm to lean upon in the day of calamity, no eye to pity when they are forlorn and cast down; and I comprehend it by saying death, hell and the grave. This is what they will get in exchange for their apostasy from the Gospel of the Son of God
Metis_LDS Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, JAHS said: Yet it is still heaven and they will be happy to be there. Like the scripture says, "for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it;" (3 Nephi 27) I mostly try to stay on topic but I am no longer sure what this thread is about, So for whatever it is worth the "Yet it is still heaven and they will be happy to be there" is crucial. Most all 99%??? will settle once they have a perfected body and they know and understand the kingdom they are in. Who will not ever be happy with any of that why those who are Perdition of course.
Bernard Gui Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 18 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Sounds like one of my teenager's retorts, but it doesn't make any sense. You need to clean up your room son. No, Dad you need to clean up your room! Sounds so like avoiding the issue. Maybe both rooms need to be cleaned. You pass judgment on those who speak for God, which requires knowledge that comes from God. So, you assume to speak for him. Makes perfect sense. 1
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 So this is interesting, the quote that people were using earlier in the thread from the History of the Church 6:314 actually says it applies to many apostates of the church. Quote All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil-- the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life,-- the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance: they make open war like the Devil, and awful is the consequence.
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Going to check that out, thanks!! That book uses a lot of the scholarship from the famous Jesus Seminar where scholars weighed in on the historical evidence and reliability of different passages form the four gospels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
Bernard Gui Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I found some more interesting quotes in the teachings of Brigham Young chapter 12. The whole chapter is interesting. I don't think we should dismiss Brigham Young's statements as representing old ideas. Remember that this book was published in recent years and was approved through the curriculum department and we can assume passed correlation and approval from church leaders. They chose the quotes to include in this chapter and therefore these have the imprimatur of sanction from modern prophets. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-12?lang=eng Is this really much different from the teaching of the Savior on the same topic? Quote 22And he passed through the towns and villages, teaching and making his journey to Jerusalem. 23A certain person said to him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” But he said to them, 24“ Seek to enter in through the narrow doorway, because many, I say to you, will try to go in but will not be able to do so. 25When the master of the house has risen and shut the door, you will stand outside and begin to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us.’ And he will answer them, ‘I do not know you, where you are from.’ 26Then you will begin to say, ‘We dined with you, and we drank with you, and you taught us in our streets.’ 27And he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you who are wrongdoers.’ 28There will be weeping and grinding of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you will be thrown out. 29They will come from the east and west and from the north and south, and they will sit down in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”” —Luke 13. The New Testament: A New Translation for Latter-day Saints by Thomas A. Wayment
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, pogi said: Yep, it is astonishing to me that we are even having this conversation, and that it has continued on for 9 pages. You would think that if we truly believed that apostasy is the "worst possible sin one could commit" there would be at least one believing member defending Sam Young's comments - tellingly, we only see doubters who defend his comment without being able to provide any teachings to support it. Check the quote I just posted that comes from the History of the Church. Its attributed to Joseph Smith, although I don't have a strong knowledge about the background for that quote. It would be good to have Dan Vogel's series on the History of the Church for things like this to better reference where the actual source material comes from.
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Sounds so like avoiding the issue. Maybe both rooms need to be cleaned. You pass judgment on those who speak for God, which requires knowledge that comes from God. So, you assume to speak for him. Makes perfect sense. Huh? I said that I don't trust people who claim to speak for God. I'm not making a counter claim that I have some kind of verifiable knowledge that what they claim to say isn't from God. Its not even subject to any kind of proof or rational discussion.
Bernard Gui Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: So this is interesting, the quote that people were using earlier in the thread from the History of the Church 6:314 actually says it applies to many apostates of the church. Emphasis on “he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil-- the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life....” Hunt, kill, thirst for blood, spirit of the Devil, crucify Christ...just your average ex-Mormon? Wait for it......" the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost.” Oh. There is a bit of a difference, no? Maybe we can agree that there are different degrees of apostasy just as there are different degrees of faith? One size does not fit all? In that we all sin, we are all in some degree of apostasy, but we all strive to do good and so we are all in some degree of faith. Repentance and forgiveness are granted. That does not make us Sons of Perdition. They have no repentance and no forgiveness. Edited December 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: That book uses a lot of the scholarship from the famous Jesus Seminar where scholars weighed in on the historical evidence and reliability of different passages form the four gospels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar The Jesus Seminar......folks posing as prophets dressed in the robes of the apostate priesthood voting on Jesus. 😉 Nod to Nibley. Edited December 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui 1
Metis_LDS Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 18 minutes ago, pogi said: Yep, it is astonishing to me that we are even having this conversation, and that it has continued on for 9 pages. You would think that if we truly believed that apostasy is the "worst possible sin one could commit" there would be at least one believing member defending Sam Young's comments - tellingly, we only see doubters who defend his comment without being able to provide any teachings to support it. Double Yep, It's Duck Season. It's Rabbit Season, It's Duck Season, No it's Rabbit Season. Rinse and repeated.
smac97 Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I understand, I have had spiritual experiences as well, and I honor those. I interpret them differently than I used to though. I don't see spiritual experience as confirmation that everything being said was necessarily inspired or from God. Nor do I. To the contrary, we have been frequently counseled against notions of infallibility. 50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Also, I've thought long and hard about what people who claim to be speaking for God must be thinking in their minds when they make those claims. I used to do this to some extent when I was giving priesthood blessings. However, I never felt comfortable saying that I knew what I said during those moments came from God. "I know" is a powerful statement. I am cautious in my use of it. "I believe" is also a powerful statement. And generally more accurate. 50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: At times I felt like I was being inspired to say something, but I never had that level of confidence to proclaim that the words I was speaking were God's words. I think it takes an extra level of hubris to make claims like that. Or an extra level of humility. 50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I personally am thankful that I never felt right about it when people would make such bold claims. I remember on a couple occasions having a more senior person in a blessing circle tell me that I should have used more bold language, that they were feeling such a strong spirit that they would have told the person to be healed and that they personally knew it was God's will through the spirit they were feeling. I never felt that way myself. Okay. 50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: If God wants to heal someone, then that's up to God, I was never comfortable acting as if I were so in tune with God that I could make such a bold claim. I am not sure what is "bold" about this. 50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: This is part of why I have a hard time with Joseph Smith these days. I believe he crossed a line from his early revelations where he speaks in more passive voice to a more direct voice proclaiming to be speaking for God. I think that is a dangerous road he traversed, this is my personal opinion, and I don't share it lightly or often, but from my vantage point, this line that he crossed was a perilous one. What "line"? Thanks, -Smac
Bernard Gui Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Huh? I said that I don't trust people who claim to speak for God. I'm not making a counter claim that I have some kind of verifiable knowledge that what they claim to say isn't from God. Its not even subject to any kind of proof or rational discussion. Then it seems you have no way of knowing whether or not they speak for God other than to judge them by your own opinion. How does one rationally prove such a thing?
pogi Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Check the quote I just posted that comes from the History of the Church. Its attributed to Joseph Smith, although I don't have a strong knowledge about the background for that quote. It would be good to have Dan Vogel's series on the History of the Church for things like this to better reference where the actual source material comes from. I think the applicable part is the following: Quote What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. Does Sam really think this applies to him? Does Sam claim to have received the Holy Ghost (baptism of fire) which is different from confirmation? Does he deny Jesus Christ after having the heavens opened unto him? Nope. Once again, to say that some apostates have denied the Holy Ghost is NOT to say that apostasy is worse than murder. Your quote doesn't support Sam Young at all in his false claims. Edited December 30, 2019 by pogi 1
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: The Jesus Seminar......folks posing as prophets dressed in the robes of the apostate priesthood voting on Jesus. 😉 Nod to Nibley. Thanks Nibley for the ad hominem. Or let’s just ignore the actual scholarship when it contradicts our world view.
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 26 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Emphasis on “he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil-- the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life....” Hunt, kill, thirst for blood, spirit of the Devil, crucify Christ...just your average ex-Mormon? Wait for it......" the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost.” Oh. There is a bit of a difference, no? Maybe we can agree that there are different degrees of apostasy just as there are different degrees of faith? One size does not fit all? In that we all sin, we are all in some degree of apostasy, but we all strive to do good and so we are all in some degree of faith. Repentance and forgiveness are granted. That does not make us Sons of Perdition. They have no repentance and no forgiveness. I imagine Sam Young would also agree that the church teaches there are different degrees of apostasy.
smac97 Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: And #9, #10...I don't know that I said what you CFR'd. It feels like you're putting words into my posts that I haven't said, or I could be wrong and I'll take a look at what I've said. You said: "Apostasy in the LDS church is more than breaking the 10 Commandments and it is more than rejecting Christ." I issued a CFR: "References, please, that apostasy is worse than worshipping false gods, adultery, murder, and so on ('the 10 Commandments') and worse 'than rejecting Christ.'" You also said: "This is a fundamental struggle that the church has created and still manufactures in the spiritual lives of people. People today are struggling between their convictions about Christ and their testimony of the church and being expected to choose between them." I issued a CFR: "Chapter and verse, please, as to Church members 'being expected to choose between {their convictions about Christ and their testimony of the church}.' Where has the Church promulgated such an expectation?" I think you are substantially distorting the teachings of the Church on these two points. If so, I ask that you retract them. If not, I ask that you substantiate your assertions. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: If in fact I did do as you say, I'll definitely concede and say the current leaders of the church don't teach those things you say I said they did. Okay. I look forward to you addressing the above two points. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I think your lawyer-ness (made up word) is coming through here. I'm not a jury, okay? I'm not asking you to be "a jury." One of the main reasons this board has value is that it is not utterly freewheeling. Posters have broad, but not unlimited, latitude to speak their minds. If such speaking-of-one's-mind includes statements of fact, then other posters are entitled to issue CFRs. This is an important check against discussions devolving into the normative shouting matches we see so frequently online. We are discussing important topics here. I think we need to be cautious and circumspect in what we say, particularly when we move from statements of opinion to statements of fact. Thanks, -Smac 1
pogi Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) Nevermind Edited December 30, 2019 by pogi
hope_for_things Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 38 minutes ago, smac97 said: Nor do I. To the contrary, we have been frequently counseled against notions of infallibility. "I know" is a powerful statement. I am cautious in my use of it. "I believe" is also a powerful statement. And generally more accurate. Or an extra level of humility. Okay. I am not sure what is "bold" about this. What "line"? Thanks, -Smac Nice to agree on some things for a change. As for the line Joseph crossed, this is my analysis of his early career based on my study of the evidence. His early revelations read in a more passive voice, see D&C 3 & 4, the earliest versions of these are speaking in a 3rd person for God. Then moving into D&C 5 from a few months later you can start to see the boldness and change in speech and this continues in the later revelations. I think Joseph got more confident in how he spoke, proclaiming first person speech for God over time. I'll never know for sure what went on in his or anyone else's head, but my speculation is that psychologically he crossed a line of sorts during this time period.
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