Focus Group - your top concerns

[Duncan]

I'd be interested to see how the focus group went! please tell us!

[truth a la carte]

What is doctrine? I feel it would be helpful to have a canonized list of some sort, rather than saying that doctrine is what most current General Authorities agree on at that moment. For example, perhaps “doctrine” is fairly limited and includes only revealed truths that can be traced to specific experiences (e.g., the First Vision) or revelatory commandments from God (e.g., the Doctrine & Covenants). Alternatively, perhaps doctrine includes those things that the GA’s vote on unanimously and feel good about (e.g., the Proclamation on the Family). I really like the article by Elder Bednar (“Act in Doctrine”) that Smac shares on this board about the differences between doctrine-principles-applications. But this framework works best if the jumping-off point (doctrine) is agreed upon / well defined.

Provide a better separation between a) revealed behavior requirements that require obedience and b) good, old fashioned “wisdom.” In addition, statements about behavior that is “discouraged” or “not normally encouraged” should probably be removed from the handbook on church policy – that guidance doesn’t need to be lost, but it should not be suggested that obedience is usually required.

Time for church members. We have far too many meetings and church responsibilities. Let’s stop using church members’ entire Sundays for sedentary meetings and our Saturdays for a million other church responsibilities that are active. Far too many Saturdays are required (often three Saturdays per month, in our area). Far too many evening devotionals should instead be used as actual church (perhaps a special ward/stake/regional conference, or to be viewed during the second hour). Far too many meetings are scheduled when visiting authorities come by, which then requires everyone to stop what they had planned to do that day and drive to attend. Please, please, please give us a break. The church has begun to “simplify” (hooray!) but there is SO MUCH more to be done.

And a few additional notes:

·       Stop making it seem like eternal life is earned by checking the right boxes (e.g., the new YW theme where girls “qualify”).
·       Issue corrections for past positions that were incorrect (and even, perhaps, for guidance that turned out to be less important than initially presumed).
·       As mentioned earlier by another poster: service missions – even for healthy young men.
·       Also mentioned earlier: transparency in church finances.
·       Also mentioned earlier: spend a good portion of tithing monies on charity.
·       Define tithing (net? gross? perhaps something else entirely – for example, does the Community of Christ give guidance to their members that “increase” is what is left, after basic living expenses are taken out?)

Edited October 30, 2019 by truth a la carte

[provoman]

1. Online Seminary available for all.

2. Locally created "rules" v Church Official Doctrines and/or official Church statements. (example on a reddit forum someone posted that their Stake President will deny Temple Recommends to anyone legally and lawfully using medical cannabis who DOES NOT purchase the legal and lawful cannabis from a licensed pharmacy - the person also posted that State law prohibits pharmacies from dispensing/selling medical cannabis. The person also indicated she legally and lawfully grows her own medical cannabis.)

Edited October 29, 2019 by provoman

[truth a la carte]

A few more:

Define the role of women in the church. What are women here for? How do we help build the kingdom (and please don’t say that our job is to be mothers, since men are often fathers and they also have a role in building the kingdom). As an aside, I actually don’t think our role is to serve in priesthood roles (perhaps that is because I don’t want that though); however, I have suspicions that we should be doing something in addition to being mothers and supporting the priesthood. My thought is that we should probably be leading the charity efforts of the church.

Women’s eternal progression. It would be helpful to acknowledge that men have a (somewhat) decent idea of what their eternal progression may look like for them, and that they find that knowledge rather important and comforting (e.g., men have physical bodies that are similar to the exalted body of Heavenly Father; men have the priesthood which is the power that is used by Heavenly Father and is the power by which the universe runs; men are sealed to the women of their choice for time and eternity). Alternatively, women don’t have as decent an idea of what our eternal progression looks like, and that is rather discomfiting (e.g., we probably have a mother in heaven because that is logical; we can have access to the priesthood because we can be sealed to a man but that knowledge gives us no idea about the role of women in the afterlife; polygamy in the afterlife via earthly sealings is a problematic idea for most women).

Also, if you can bring yourself to do it: Women everywhere would thank you for bringing up the observation that women’s underwear has undergone some incredible improvements since the garment was first designed (bras were patented in the United States in 1914, and the cotton undies style that women wear now weren’t the norm until 1980). These improvements in underwear address the needs of women’s bodies (e.g., extreme size differences in various parts of the body due to pregnancy, extreme shape variations between women, functionality needs for activities like breastfeeding, functionality needs during menstruation). While women’s underwear has seen tremendous improvements in functionality over the years, women’s garments have actually become anti-functional for women by staying fairly similar in cut and design, a design that now works against the needs of the underwear we use to address the needs of our bodies. (A quick note: After years of fighting daily with my garments, I bought underwear for my suddenly-tall son last year and was STUNNED to see how closely mens’ garments mimic mens’ underwear in both form and function. Every day since, my garments have testified to me that the church hasn’t taken the time necessary to ensure that women experience the same level of comfort as men. That knowledge is less than awesome.)

[JarMan]

The curriculum is so sanitized and shallow. In effect we don't even really have scriptures anymore. This needs to change at the seminary and church university level as well as at the ward level.  

[pogi]

45 minutes ago, truth a la carte said:

My thought is that we should probably be leading the charity efforts of the church.

A think that is a great idea and would be a logical extension of the relief society. 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, truth a la carte said:

Let’s stop using church members’ entire Sundays for sedentary meetings

What meetings are your Sundays being taken up by?

Personally, other than the two hour block, I have ward council twice a month and try and set up a ministering interview for after church each Sunday.

So for a 4 Sunday month that would be about 4 hours a month spent in meetings on Sunday. 

As travel time is not an issue we try and hold presidency meetings on a weeknight.  If we were to hold them on Sunday that would add another 6 hours a month.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 10/28/2019 at 2:59 PM, Duncan said:

 

3)Bureacracy. The Church has the attitude and i've seen this in other organizations as well, someone goes to the bathroom so now everyone has to wear a diaper. Just because someone somewhere screwed up doesn't mean everyone everywhere needs to change. I saw this first hand at our last Stake Conf. training session. Missionary work with the ward now is a mess with the introduction of EQ and RS layers of reporting to the EQ and RS Pres. who are supposed to take what the missionaries are doing to the ward council. What was wrong with the WML doing? if some WML wasn't attending ward council, then call a new one. If there isn't two way communication between the ward council and missionaries, then fix the WML, not the system. It's now a bureacracy, the missionaries are supposed to tell the WML who is supposed to tell the EQ and RS who is supposed to tell the ward council, in turn, they are supposed to tell the EQ and RS who tell the missionaries, what a waste of time. Correct that by having the WML attend ward council and forget this EQ and RS reporting stuff.

It seems odd that the Church has reduced considerably the number of callings, which is leading to the conditions you note here. You once had two Priesthood Groups to shoulder a near crushing workload at times, now handed by only one group, which now has more responsibilities than the two groups ever had. Which oddly enough is going to lead to bigger bureaucracies you speak of, and less accomplishment overall. Many in our Ward seem to be floundering due to a “decrease of responsibility”. I grew up in the Baptist Church, where most never held any callings, other than attendance. A condition that did leave much more time at home, but much less in Spiritual growth. Some in our Ward, have expressed how they feel unneeded, and increasingly unnecessary. Some who did not care much for Sunday School in the past, show up every other week when Priesthood is held. I have heard no complaints about the two-hour meeting block, but the few who now with callings, feeling buried alive, with new changes and added responsibilities. 

[Jeanne]

I realize that I have no stake in the matter but wanted to say that I am so impressed by all those here who see the needs for good changes and can relate why. 

[truth a la carte]

41 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What meetings are your Sundays being taken up by?

Our family’s biggest problems with Sunday meetings were when I was in the RS presidency or president, and/or when my husband was in the EQ presidency – though we also had a fair amount of meetings when my husband was scoutmaster and in the YMs presidency. (And no, our ward is not as small as it would seem, with those callings happening concurrently. We're just really short on people who can hold leadership callings. Perhaps because we have several family history consultants who are expected to work many hours a week in our stake's family history center, several other stake callings that pull people from our ward, six seminary teachers and assistants that are called from our ward, and a lot of families that are working tons of jobs for very little money and don't have the time required for church leadership callings).

When I was the RS president, I was at the church for eight hours straight at least. Ward council, church, meetings with recent move-ins after church, meetings with new converts after church, meetings with struggling folks after church, meetings with our presidency after church every two weeks or so, meetings with the activities folks about once a month. When my husband was EQ president it was the same. And then of course we also had additional meetings the stake/region wanted us to attend. The “motivational” meetings were the most galling, I admit – when we were asked to attend a meeting for something we already knew the details for (for example, self-reliance or missionary work or temple work) but a meeting was scheduled because the people called to oversee the programs wanted the wards to do more than they were doing.

Now things have settled a bit, and we’re just doing youth presidency meetings once a month before or after church for each of the kids (of course on different Sundays), attending baptisms for eight-year-olds, attending baptisms for new converts, attending the devotionals for youth, attending the devotionals for adults, attending the regional firesides, etc.

27 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

the few who now with callings, feeling buried alive, with new changes and added responsibilities. 

I felt that way, even before all these changes. I agree that it is worse for the folks in those roles now.
 

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, snowflake said:

Bring back the beards! Orson Pratt

Amen! The American temple I was working at when the rule came in was filled with bearded men. One of them had a handlebar moustache that he'd been carefully nurturing for his entire life. It was beautiful. He looked like a freak without it.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[bluebell]

On 10/28/2019 at 12:59 PM, Duncan said:

1)There seems to be an attitude of upward mobility equaling spirituality and your good with God, big pay raise, new house trips etc.  and you get the "big callings" In our ward we had a HC guy(who checks all the boxes for "righteousness")  who is the Temple construction manager but he give a talk about his own personal politics and I don't want to go to church to hear about politics, so calling that guy to the HC bit the Stake in the oonka toonka. Knowing our stake they'll do nothing and he'll keep saying whatever.

2)Never good enough, always needing improvement, better job, better home, better this or that and who wants to come to church feeling worse leaving than when you came? I know Sister Eubank(s) mentioned this in a talk last April but the lived experience is something else.

3)Bureacracy. The Church has the attitude and i've seen this in other organizations as well, someone goes to the bathroom so now everyone has to wear a diaper. Just because someone somewhere screwed up doesn't mean everyone everywhere needs to change. I saw this first hand at our last Stake Conf. training session. Missionary work with the ward now is a mess with the introduction of EQ and RS layers of reporting to the EQ and RS Pres. who are supposed to take what the missionaries are doing to the ward council. What was wrong with the WML doing? if some WML wasn't attending ward council, then call a new one. If there isn't two way communication between the ward council and missionaries, then fix the WML, not the system. It's now a bureacracy, the missionaries are supposed to tell the WML who is supposed to tell the EQ and RS who is supposed to tell the ward council, in turn, they are supposed to tell the EQ and RS who tell the missionaries, what a waste of time. Correct that by having the WML attend ward council and forget this EQ and RS reporting stuff.

4) I think the Church should be more international. I think that when laws are passed or situations arise in other countries, the Church says nothing and so the Stake President says nothing because nobody knows what to do (I LOVE our Stake President) For example, Canada just had a federal election and the old Prime Minister got re-elected. Did the Church, general or otherwise issue a statement about it? No. When the US gets a President, they've sung at the inauguration and issue a statement. I emailed Newsroom Canada about it and heard zippo back. Why didn't the Church say anything? How difficult is it for whoever to issue a statement.They have time for the US. When gay marriage became legal here in Canada the Church said nothing, when it became legal in the US, the world fell apart. Sometimes the Church acts like a relative of mine it isn't a problem until it happens to them and so good luck to everybody else and then they want help and prayers for the country (Pres. Ballard). Where where your prayers for my country 10 plus years ago? FYI, I like the US😀

Our missionaries are asked to go to ward council every time it meets, directly reporting on their activities. Why don’t your missionaries just do that?

[ksfisher]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Our missionaries are asked to go to ward council every time it meets, directly reporting on their activities. Why don’t your missionaries just do that?

Ours cover 7 other wards or branches.  Wouldn't be doable for them.

[Duncan]

53 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Our missionaries are asked to go to ward council every time it meets, directly reporting on their activities. Why don’t your missionaries just do that?

that would make sense! but it appears we can't have that😭 I will bring it up next meeting though. We had training awhile back for Stake Conference and I brought some of this up but the guy running the meeting didn't understand what I was saying, as in  how is adding more layers to reporting better than the existing system and I guess that was too much information for him🥴 I am all in when something changes for the better but am not when it's dumb and doesn't make things easier, why are we complicating things? I got the "this is what the brethren want" and I said when was the last time these brethren attended a ward correlation meeting and ward council? I would like to see a video about this new way and how it's better than the old way 

[Duncan]

34 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Ours cover 7 other wards or branches.  Wouldn't be doable for them.

could they send the WML? I know people who say the missionaries take up too much time, well train them not to do that, 5-10 minutes tell us about XYZ and here's what we want you to know

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Ours cover 7 other wards or branches.  Wouldn't be doable for them.

Our's cover five, but they of course are not all held at the same time.  While they can't come to every WC (we have three a month) they can come to at least one a month.  Sometimes more.

[ksfisher]

On 10/28/2019 at 4:03 PM, Maidservant said:

That the idea of repentance is not that helpful. We do need to change, but I changed by changing the kind of minerals I took. I changed by detoxing my cells. People change by real methods relating to their body and mind, not by saying 'repent'.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here about repentance.  Are you saying that if I steal from you that I can repent of that sin by changing what foods or supplements I take?

I understand that repentance just doesn't happen by saying repent.  That seems clear from scripture.

[pogi]

22 hours ago, truth a la carte said:

Let’s stop using church members’ entire Sundays for sedentary meetings

I agree, there really should be treadmills or stationary bikes included in the meetings 

[MustardSeed]

50 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here about repentance.  Are you saying that if I steal from you that I can repent of that sin by changing what foods or supplements I take?

I understand that repentance just doesn't happen by saying repent.  That seems clear from scripture.

Repentance to me often suggests harm done to affect another person. Someone needs to be apologized to.  Behavior needs corrected.  Thoughts need redirected.  It’s an active motion- 

im not clear on the role of body cells in the process. 

[Bob Crockett]

Here are my concerns:

1.  Why don't we have transgender restrooms in the meetinghouses?

2.   Why can't I park my motorcycle near the doors of the meetinghouses? There aren't designated spaces for motorcycles.

3.  Why can't I get a free education for my child (or myself, for that matter) at BYU or BYU-I or BYU-H?

4.  Can we please do on-line sacrament meetings?

5.  Could you please, please institute a rule in Sunday School that if you've raised your hand to comment on the lesson, you'll have to wait another four weeks to comment?

6.  Could you please, please institute rules to say that you can bear your testimony just once a year, and when you do, you can't brag about travel, your job, or what your kids are doing and if you do, the shepherd's crook comes out?

7.  Can you eliminate from the endowment film places where nothing is being said, so as to shorten it?

8.  Can you just convert every stake center to alternate temple usage?

9.  I don't think it is a big deal to make women bishops.  Then I can stay home and watch football and wait to be told what to do.  I'd do it happily. 

10.  Can you please add to the recommend questions, "Do you make posts on the internet?"  If the answer is yes, no recommend.  Please please do that and get me off the internet. 

11.  Instead of tree-destroying weekly programs for wards (do we see that in stake conference?  in general conference?) can you just use a projector to display announcements and the program on a wall? 

12.  Can the bishopric and relief society presidencies be permitted to wear sunglasses on the stand?  They can sleep if they want.   Can we as congregants wear sunglasses?   Can you provide pews like there were in King Noah's day, where we can sort of lie down during meetings?

Edited October 30, 2019 by Bob Crockett

[Ahab]

On 10/28/2019 at 11:31 AM, nuclearfuels said:

Looks like I might be invited to a focus group conducted by the researchers who work at Church HQ.

I don't really have concerns about doctrine but more about the culture, so it's difficult for me to put those into wards since I see through a glass darkly, very darkly on a good day.

If you all could civilly share with me a few of your concerns / qualms, it might help me verbalize my own.

 

Did you mean "words" when you said "wards"?  if not where else would the Church culture be?

I don't really have any concerns about Church doctrine or Church culture, either.  I accept Church doctrine only when God tells me the doctrine is true and his revealed will and I feel pretty much the same way about our Church culture.

I don't let the quirks of individuals affect me that much when people do or say things that I do not want to say or do.

[Maidservant]

4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here about repentance.  Are you saying that if I steal from you that I can repent of that sin by changing what foods or supplements I take?

I understand that repentance just doesn't happen by saying repent.  That seems clear from scripture.

 

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Repentance to me often suggests harm done to affect another person. Someone needs to be apologized to.  Behavior needs corrected.  Thoughts need redirected.  It’s an active motion- 

im not clear on the role of body cells in the process. 

one. the health of the cells, gut, all organs, energy, etc. determine to a very large degree the thoughts, emotions, and choices etc. one has. There is some nod to this in the prohibitions on alcohol and coffee, which modify energy state and therefore behavior. I'm saying, let's go farther. Maybe spending one hour a week in a float spa (as one methodological example) would do more than one hour a week in Sacrament Meeting in assisting the body to do its life in a good way. Maybe getting a handful of spinach daily would do more to calm a mother than simply being told in a talk to speak in a kinder tone to her children. Not maybe, it's what I personally think and have experienced in real time for myself. cells and the body entire have everything to do with behavior, because our body is the only thing we have to do behavior with. Trauma release methods.

two. why are you stealing? there's what led up to it. There needs to be more exact understanding and mitigating of this, or as I wish. How can you change from being a thief? Yes, your food will have something to do with it. (repeat: trauma release methods). But I only meant that as one example as a behavior modifier. I mean to get a deeper, more exact understanding and application of behavior modifiers and how human beings make choices. Instead of religious angsting with no actual information. (What is the thief stealing? How about our paradigm and social modifications? Have you ever watched the Buttercream Gang where it was impossible for the young man to be a thief because every time he tried, instead he was given something he needed? You can't steal something someone is willing to share with you.)

three. I don't think the scriptures are very exact at all at HOW people can change. They do outline the path of the change, or at least of progression. And I think there are deeper clues in the scriptures, but we're not getting that either except on a personal basis as we wish.

four. Scripturally, as near as I can tell, sin is not the bad things we do, anyway. it is the separation from GOD that leads to bad things done and happening because of course we are going to harm ourselves and others if we don't know our worth, and that we are loved, and etc. Sin is our wound. From those wounds, we wound others (crucify them) unless we follow the path of Christ to return good on even those who wound us. Trauma release methods would be awesome here instead of religion per se.

five. in the OT especially (especially Isaiah) but also NT, wickedness is not personal but institutional. That the individual bears the stripes of what we have placed upon him of OUR wounds and wickedness.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Maidservant

[Calm]

“Not maybe, it's what I personally think and have experienced in real time for myself. cells and the body entire have everything to do with behavior, because our body is the only thing we have to do behavior with. Trauma release methods.”

It doesn’t have to be one or the other, does it?Helping one feel physically better isn’t sufficient in most cases imo if someone doesn’t know what to do with that health and energy. While I think we can be taught through the light of Christ, there are many other sensations and ideas being constantly thrown at us through all our senses. Having an environment we easily identify as teaching (church) can help us pay attention to the best messages we are receiving.

[The Nehor]

I think it is high time we let Visigoths hold the Priesthood.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think it is high time we let Visigoths hold the Priesthood.

Do you mean receive it?  Or do you mean ordained to an office of the priesthood?  Everyone can "hold" the priesthood. That just takes holding someone who has it.

Which brings up one of my concerns about Church culture.  I'm concerned that many people do not know what it means to receive the priesthood of God.  Even some members don't seem to understand it, judging by the way they talk about it.