JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: So I'm still wondering why ALarson said the so-called "oath of vengeance" bound the saints to carrying out the vengeance themselves as opposed to praying for God to do it. Perhaps it should be he that responds to this. ALarson? I only saw him post that the oath was a part of the endowment back in Nauvoo. Are you saying it wasn’t? I honestly understand why it was something members took (with an understanding that God would take vengeance....but it was still an oath they took), I cannot imagine the pain they were in when I read about the love they had for the Prophet Joseph.
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Paiute said: Should "Rock of Ages" be removed because we don't praise or worship rocks? I don't like it much just because. QED. I rest my case.
The Nehor Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Paiute said: It may be a King quite soon. The hymn book still has it that way but we had to word swap when singing it when I was over there. Is “Jerusalem” too anthemey to go in the new book?
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: QED. I have no problem with it being left in though because I know many do love it and see no reason to deprive them of it. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, JulieM said: I only saw him post that the oath was a part of the endowment back in Nauvoo. Are you saying it wasn’t? I honestly understand why it was something members took (with an understanding that God would take vengeance....but it was still an oath they took), I cannot imagine the pain they were in when I read about the love they had for the Prophet Joseph. No, I’m not doubting the oath existed. I’m asking why he said the oath was for the Church members to carry out the vengeance themselves as opposed to praying that God would do it. Quite a difference, as I see it. Clearly you don’t know. I’m waiting for ALarson’s response.
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Calm said: I am curious, how many enjoy "Love at Home"? I don't know why, but even as a kid I hated it. My parents loved that hymn. They loved the King family TV shows and I guess it was their theme song or something? Anyway, because my parents loved it, I have grown to love it too. Weird how that happens! I have sweet memories connected to it 😊 Edited June 19, 2018 by JulieM
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: No, I’m not doubting the oath existed. I’m asking why he said the oath was for the Church members to carry out the vengeance themselves as opposed to praying that God would do it. Quite a difference, as I see it. Clearly you don’t know. I’m waiting for ALarson’s response. Ok. Hopefully he’ll respond. I understand. Edited June 19, 2018 by JulieM
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Calm said: I have no problem with it being left in though because I know many do love it and see no reason to deprive them of it. I get it. There are a few about which I have similar feelings, but a few I would like to show the door. I particularly don't like the ta ti ta ti ta ti rhythm Salvation Army songs such as We Are All Enlisted and In Our Lovely Deseret. They are from a different era, but I'm sure there a some who would leave the Church if they were removed. And I really don't like the organ/trumpet calls in God of Our Fathers. I like the hymn itself, but the trumpet fanfares are too cheesy. I try hard to disguise them when I play them on the organ. Also, playing hymns slowly is against my religion. I know ourchorister gets frustrated with me, but I don't care. I take them at the upper end of the suggested tempi or a bit faster,and I do not let the congregation drag. Ever. So much is bound up in our individual feelings about what is and is not good music. It's a puzzlement. Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
John Pack Lambert Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 I have to admit that I want "Our Mountain Home So Dear" scrapped. That is basically an anthem to the state of Utah, even worse than a national anthem. I submitted a longer list through the survey. I also submitted a text for a hymn. This is a process that per the Deseret News will take "several years". The end submission date for new hymns, both music, texts, and combined, is July 2019. At this point the main reason to announce this is to get lots of feedback related to what hymns people want, want out, what new ones they want, etc, and to get more hymns submitted. No one person is allowed to submit more than 5 hymns and 5 children's songs. To be considered works submitted to the Church for past competitions need to be resubmitted. It is unclear if works that have actually been published by the Church in the Ensign or other ways needs to be resubmitted to be considered, or if the Church will consider them. There are evidently multiple committesss in place. They were approaved by the first presidency. My guess is the decision to move in the direction of one unified hymnbook published in multiple languages, with suplemental materials available in electronic format was one bounced around in committee, sent to the twelve and first presidency, debated, possibly the initial plan not quite liked, sent back, etc. President Nelson's deep connection with music may well have caused this to happen with a bit more expedition, but I think we are still largely dealing with decisions that were at least somewhat considered before President Monson died. Unknowns at this time are the size of the comittees. They are made up of both Church employees and members asked to serve on a calling basis. We do know that Elder LeGrand R. Curtis, who was partly raised in Texas and spent most of his adult life in Utah, and Elder Erich Kopiske, who was born and lived all his life till he was a general authority in Germany, are involved with the project. The quotes from Elder Rasband and Sister Franco in the announcement on it make me think these two individuals are among those involved. Elder Curtis expressed a general hope that many hymns "not yet written" could be included. Although the submission process is open to people of any faith, the fact the Church sent out a mass email about it, you have to create an account on the Church website, and related matters mean that many of the people doing submissions will be Latter-day Saints. Also there is the factor of giving the Church full rights to use the work. This is the key quote from the Deseret News article "The committees, made up of church employees and members called to participate because of expertise in music, education, literature, world cultures and church doctrine, will select core hymns and songs that teach LDS doctrines." It is probably worth parsing. One issue, is "because" modifying "members called" or "church employees and members called" I am not sure. Either way, the fact that music and church doctrine are two points of expertise listed is no surprise. However education, literature and especially world cultures, especially the use of world there, shows a desire to make this truly international. Of course, true international committes are most international with residents of many countries. This may or may not be why these are described as "the Committees". The other thing I see here is a decision to make these "core hymns and songs" ones that teach LDS doctrine. There is still a place for national anthems, and celebratory hymns to remember Church history. Weather that is a place in the hymnbook itself is less clear. This may mean scrapping "Praise to the Man", and "Come, Come Ye Saints" althogh for a broad variety of reasons I have my doubts. It may mean scrapping "True to the Faith", but I doubt that even more. I am guessing it does mean for sure scrapping "They The Builders of a Nation". "Our Mountain Home So Dear" is almost also certainly plain out. However there is also a possibility some present hymns will be kept, but with changes in text. I am sure that "If You Could Hie to Kolob" needs to be rid of the line "There is no end to race." I am not sure keeping that hymn really makes sense, but I am sure that line has got to go. I know some people who have suggested replacing it with "There is no end to grace." No step of this process will be an easy task. On the other hand many of people's leading complaints about the current state of hymn singing, like those who feel hymns are sung too slow, are not much likely to be solved by a new hymnbook. In some LDS sacrament meetings most hymns are sung much slower than the tempo suggested in the hymnbook. A new book will not solve this problem. Of course, creating a new book may be used as a time to revise music policies in the Church in other ways. With policy changes in the Church over the last six or so months, as well as some further back, a full revision and new edition of the Church handbook of instruction might well be called for.
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I get it. There are a few about which I have similar feelings, but a few I would like to show the door. I particularly don't like the ta ti ta ti ta ti rhythm Salvation Army songs such as We Are All Enlisted and In Our Lovely Deseret. They are from a different era, but I'm sure there a some who would leave the Church if they were removed. And I really don't like the organ/trumpet calls in God of Our Fathers. I like the hymn itself, but the trumpet fanfares are too much. I try really hard to disguise them when I play them on the organ. Also, playing hymns slowly is against my religion. I know our chorister gets frustrated with me, but I don't care. I take them at the upper end of the suggested tempi or a bit faster, and I do not let the congregation drag. Ever. It must be incredible to hear you play! Our organist drags....and I always feel like singing ahead. I’d love being in your congregation! 1
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, Duncan said: https://www.lds.org/church/news/church-announces-plans-for-new-hymnbook-and-childrens-songbook?lang=eng well, law dee da! You must be Canadian. Everybody knows it's LA dee da. See the Brits like to make everything fancy or so they say law dee daw Americans say la dee da So you're halfway between the Brits and the Americans with law dee da. See? Logical, huh! Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
John Pack Lambert Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 The fan fares in "God of Our Father's" are one of my favorite parts of any hymn, anywhere. I have to admit with one exception all the hymns I want out have to do with weak or problematic gospel messages. I focus much more on text than music. The one exception is "That Easter Morn" which I think with its minor key just does not belong as one of our three Eastern hymns. My main gripe is that Easter, the greatest moment in all history, is so undersold, and Christmas, which has no meaning without Easter, is so oversold. On a similar note I think at times some advocates of music forget a hymnbook is meant to be able to be sung by the congregation. It is not meant to have works that can only be performed with the proper effect by a trained choir that has practiced them for weeks. In fact, I saw one comment where someone said we should scrap all places where only part of the congregation sings. Of course, many of the hymns that do this there is no particular reason that it has to remain. Even where it is complicated chorus refrains reworking them is always an option. On the other hand I have to admit I have a higher hope for congregational singing than some. I also tend to value enthusiams over skill more than some do.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, JulieM said: My parents loved that hymn. They loved the King family TV shows and I guess it was their theme song or something? Anyway, because my parents loved it, I have grown to love it too. Weird how that happens! I have sweet memories connected to it 😊 I was beginning to think I was the only one left alive who remembers that show. It was quite the sensation. A 1960s national network variety series starring a huge, extended Mormon family stemming from a Big Band era sister act that had competed with the Andrews Sisters in the 1940s. This pre-dated Osmondmania by a few years, although the Osmond Brothers had already made their mark on the Andy Williams Show. Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) I’ve read that when the 1985 hymnal was being prepared, one of the Tabernacle organists recommended that singing in four part harmony by congregations be disallowed. T’would have been an epic mistake. Part of the charm of Mormon hymn singing is the harmonization that is standard. Much of the enjoyment for me is singing the bass parts. The melody line of virtually all of our hymns is not arranged in a comfortable key for me. I have to either strain to hit the higher register or growl down in the nether regions. Had that proposal been taken seriously, I would had to have ceased singing altogether as part of the congregation in our meetings. I don’t know what would have motivated such a foolish proposal. I hope they don’t consider anything that stupid this time around. Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 I love “ How Great Thou Art” and always choke up when it’s sung in church. This was sung at both my sweet Mom’s and my dear Dad’s funeral services who both died way too young. I can’t make it through this song without crying. I believe that so many memories are connected to so many of our great hymns. I love most of them! I can’t ever stop going to church because I love our hymns so much! 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: It was odd to see an all-white choir imitating an African choir doing this in a recent concert. Something about "cultural appropriation" came to mind. It just didn't work. I can't tell if you're joking or serious. If the latter, do you feel this same way when you hear an African congregation 'imitating' white Saints by singing, say, 'The Spirit of God'???
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted June 19, 2018 Popular Post Posted June 19, 2018 58 minutes ago, John Pack Lambert said: "If You Could Hie to Kolob" needs to be rid of the line "There is no end to race." I am not sure keeping that hymn really makes sense, but I am sure that line has got to go. I know some people who have suggested replacing it with "There is no end to grace." Or maybe this is just a good opportunity to teach people that the word race, in its original definition, actually just means 'lineage, family', i.e., there is no end to our posterity. Quote In some LDS sacrament meetings most hymns are sung much slower than the tempo suggested in the hymnbook. A new book will not solve this problem. Cattle prods installed in the organists' benches might... Especially if we hand the remotes to the deacons? Seriously, we have a brother in our ward who plays the organ most weeks, and he drives me crazy. Not only does he play slowly, but he turns the volume down so low that the music can't be heard over the singing. I harbour suspicion that this is his mechanism for sabotaging our meetings. I was in charge of finalising our recent stake general priesthood meeting, and I hunted high and low to find an organist that isn't this brother. I was willing to just play the piano myself if necessary. Thankfully, we do have a high councillor who plays, and he followed my instructions of 'loud and punchy' perfectly. 6
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I can't tell if you're joking or serious. If the latter, do you feel this same way when you hear an African congregation 'imitating' white Saints by singing, say, 'The Spirit of God'??? No, I was not joking. I used to perform in minstrel shows in the late 50s and early 60s, so I know a bit about the history of purposely imitating some black things. (I was in an instrumental group as part of the musical revue, not one of the characters in black face). A big Mormon white choir purposely performing in the distinctive style, choreography, jive, diction, vocal inflection, and expression like a black gospel choir seems to me reminiscent of those days. Not my cup of mint tea. But I’m just an instrumentalist, so what do I know? It just seems oddly incongruent and maybe a tad inappropriate, maybe condescending??? to me. A while back a black gospel choir performed with the Tacoma Symphony. During rehearsal, from my perch in the viola section I had a good view of the choir. My eyes kept wandering to one guy in the tenors. Something was off. At break I wandered back stage, and there he was....a very white guy in blackface that didn’t cover his neck under his shirt, with an Afro wig covering a head of Irish red hair. One of the weirdest things I have ever witnessed on a stage. Other than Michael Jackson, I don’t know of any black performers who would go on stage for a serious performance decked out in whiteface. Again, I don’t mingle in vocal circles, so what do I know? Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui
ksfisher Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 4 hours ago, Paiute said: Should "Rock of Ages" be removed because we don't praise or worship rocks? I’m not saying anything should be removed. I’m saying there is a difference between praising someone and worshipping Christ.
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: No, I was not joking. I used to perform in minstrel shows in the late 50s and early 60s, so I know a bit about the history of purposely imitating some black things. (I was in an instrumental group as part of the musical revue, not one of the characters in black face). A big Mormon white choir purposely performing in the distinctive style, choreography, jive, diction, vocal inflection, and expression like a black gospel choir seems to me reminiscent of those days. Not my cup of mint tea. But I’m just an instrumentalist, so what do I know? It just seems oddly incongruent and maybe a tad inappropriate, maybe condescending??? to me. A while back a black gospel choir performed with the Tacoma Symphony. During rehearsal, from my perch in the viola section I had a good view of the choir. My eyes kept wandering to one guy in the tenors. Something was off. At break I wandered back stage, and there he was....a very white guy in blackface that didn’t cover his neck under his shirt, with an Afro wig covering a head of Irish red hair. One of the weirdest things I have ever witnessed on a stage. Other than Michael Jackson, I don’t know of any black performers who would go on stage for a serious performance decked out in whiteface. Again, I don’t mingle in vocal circles, so what do I know? I don't think Hamba was referring to that type of choir music. Did you listen to the 'video' he provided earlier with the children's choir? Still picture, so not sure, but it didn't sound like they were dancing or jiving and it didn't sound like an American black gospel music as usually stereotyped (I don't have much experience with them, so my image is what pops up on TV and movies). They sound like a classical children's choir in their harmony to me. Sound of the words are different and there is an 'accent' in the music, but it is a soft sound to me. 1
bluebell Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: QED. I rest my case. Sorry, I have no idea what you mean.
bluebell Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Sorry, but I don't see how this is any the less monotonous, dirge-like or overdone than "Love at Home." That’s fine. You don’t have to see it. 😊
Duncan Posted June 19, 2018 Author Posted June 19, 2018 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You must be Canadian. Everybody knows it's LA dee da. See the Brits like to make everything fancy or so they say law dee daw Americans say la dee da So you're halfway between the Brits and the Americans with law dee da. See? Logical, huh! nobody answered as of yet what "pound sand" means!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we don't have that expression here, I think this forum is the first time i've heard it!
HappyJackWagon Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: No, I’m not doubting the oath existed. I’m asking why he said the oath was for the Church members to carry out the vengeance themselves as opposed to praying that God would do it. Quite a difference, as I see it. Clearly you don’t know. I’m waiting for ALarson’s response. If church members take an oath of vengeance, does that mean that they do nothing while they wait for God to take care of things? I must not be understanding your position because that doesn't make any sense.
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