Announcement Re: Revisions to Hymnbook and Children's Songbook

[ALarson]

11 hours ago, JulieM said:

I only saw him post that the oath was a part of the endowment back in Nauvoo.  Are you saying it wasn’t?  I honestly understand why it was something members took (with an understanding that God would take vengeance....but it was still an oath they took), I cannot imagine the pain they were in when I read about the love they had for the Prophet Joseph.  

Correct.  I posted that some have connected that line in "Praise To The Man" to the Oath of Vengeance that was taken by members in the Nauvoo temple.  I said nothing about the members needing to take that vengeance out themselves.  I find the connection to be interesting and hadn't really looked into it before, but when you read the words of Eliza R. Snow's poem (written right after the murders) combined with the timing of the hymn being written and their connection as well (the hymn and the poem), it helps me make some sense out of that wording.  

I don't believe that most members believed they were to go out hunting for those who were in the mob that killed Joseph or even take it upon themselves to avenge the blood of the Prophets if they had the chance..  But it appears that some did:

Quote

Under the date of Dec. 6, 1889, Apostle Abraham Cannon recorded the following in his diary: “…Father said that he understood when he had his endowments in Nauvoo that he took an oath against the murderers of the Prophet Joseph as well as other prophets, and if he had ever met any of those who had taken a hand in that massacre he would undoubtedly have attempted to avenge the blood of the martyrs.” (“Daily Journal of Abraham H. Cannon,” Dec. 6, 1889, page 205)

 

Quote

The oath of vengeance was referenced by John D. Lee in his confession of his involvement in the Mountain Meadows massacre. Lee stated, "I believed then as I do now, that it was the will of every true Mormon in Utah, at that time, that the enemies of the Church should be killed as fast as possible, and that as this lot of people had men amongst them that were supposed to have helped kill the Prophets in the Carthage jail, the killing of all of them would be keeping our oaths and avenging the blood of the Prophets." 

It's an interesting topic....and I'm just responding and explaining what I was asked to clarify.  It's off topic, so we should take this to a new thread if someone wants to discuss if further....

Edited June 19, 2018 by ALarson

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, Duncan said:

nobody answered as of yet what "pound sand" means!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we don't have that expression here, I think this forum is the first time i've heard it!

You can pound sand all day and have no results. So they are telling a person  that their efforts are useless, so go do something else totally useless. Might as well take your fist and pound on sand all day.

"You are useless and a waste of time so go do something else useless and a waste of time. Just disappear."

Use your imagination and take it about as low as you can go  

 

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, Duncan said:

Whatever song ha s"firm as the Mountains around us" I would like to pitch, plus that "in Our lovely Deseret" 

Some people don't actually have mountains around them.

After all all they're good for is blocking the view.

Seriously I would block all Mountain references. They are clearly Utah-centric. We need more beaches and palm trees in our songs.

Maybe take some Beach Boys songs and rewrite the words.

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Maybe take some Beach Boys songs and rewrite the words. 

I was with you until "rewrite the words"

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, JulieM said:

My parents loved that hymn.   They loved the King family TV shows and I guess it was their theme song or something?  Anyway, because my parents loved it, I have grown to love it too.  Weird how that happens!  I have sweet memories connected to it 😊

 I am related to the King Family through my mother. She loved their show.

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Standard complaining and faultfinding about “Praise to the Man” coming in three ... two ... one ....

Zero! Blast off!

Joseph worship no bueno in a worldwide Church. Here we are talking about prophets being fallible, and clearly Joseph was one who was, and now we have him mingling with Gods so he can plan for his brethren, and ascending to Heaven as Jesus did, and the Earth seeking blood atonement for this horrible sin of murder??

Come on, it's over the top. It was a horrible crime but we are over the shock. It was a long time ago.

I have a strong testimony of Joseph's prophethood, but now especially when we are looking at prior errors made in the church we need to understand that prophets are human.

Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski
Makes more sense.

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I am curious, how many enjoy "Love at Home"?  I don't know why, but even as a kid I hated it.

My wife can't stand it. When her siblings had a fight their parents made them sing it.

Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

How odd that a thread on church music is devolving to blood oaths

Yet the Earth must atone for the blood of that man.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean. 

We have an almost religious attachment to the music we like and don’t like. In this thread I have maintained along with Scott that putting together a new hymn book that pleases everyone will be very difficult.

Folks here are expressing pretty strong feelings about hymns they love and hymns they don’t. A hymn someone adores could be one someone else adamantly believes should be removed. Or someone may fervently have  a favorite they want added, but another may think it is awful.

It’s going to be a difficult task especially considering all the cultural and ethnic boundaries it will have to cross.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Oh, I thought Praise to the Man was about Joseph Smith. Am I wrong about that? Or are we really singing praise to Jehovah who communed with Jehovah...? Get's kind of weird, no?

Not sure how that's a distortion. A religious congregation gets together and sings a song of praise during a worship service and you think its a distortion to call it worshipful praise? For what other purpose would a hymn be sung in Sacrament meeting? Usually it's to praise God but we can't really get upset about the occasional worshipful praise of a man, can we?

If I'm not mistaken there are many hymns about "Father". It would seem more appropriate than a hymn about Joseph Smith on Father's day, but I do recognize that was only my experience in my ward and isn't universal.

PS- I'll just add that this is only brought up because you brought it up. I didn't want you to be disappointed.

Your sarcasm detector is flawed.

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Your sarcasm detector is flawed.

Maybe it is because I don't view Scott Lloyd's comment as sarcasm. It was derisive in anticipation of anyone having a problem with Praise to the Man.

Or maybe my sarcasm detector is flawed by misreading your comment about my sarcasm detector is flawed. I can't tell  

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, JAHS said:

I think mostly outsiders and exMormons do most of the complaining. It should stay in. It has one of the few more lively and fun melodies to sing that are in the book.
 

Put converts on your list.

I don't sing it.

 I was totally shocked when I first heard that song.

I found it kind of scary. What kind of weird cult am I getting into?

Blood atonement and mingling with Gods?

Is this a revelation that Joseph is now exalted, and is in charge of planning for the church? Is this doctrinal that it should be in a hymn? And that he ascended to Heaven as Jesus did?

Is it a fact that his grave is now empty?

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, John Pack Lambert said:

I have to admit that I want "Our Mountain Home So Dear" scrapped. That is basically an anthem to the state of Utah, even worse than a national anthem....

Of course, creating a new book may be used as a time to revise music policies in the Church in other ways. With policy changes in the Church over the last six or so months, as well as some further back, a full revision and new edition of the Church handbook of instruction might well be called for. 

Great post! You seem to have some insider info. I remember the struggles of the previous revision process. A friend was involved.

As a professional musician and church organist for decades (my mother was chorister for many years and her mother was her stake and ward organist in a Mormon colony from age 12 to the end of her life) I have a few opinions, but fortunately I’m not in any position to wield any influence. Good luck and God bless the committees.

 I don’t think most folks realize how difficult this is going to be. It’s a Herculean task. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

My wife can't stand it. When her siblings had a fight their parents made them sing it.

Some people don't actually have mountains around them.

After all all they're good for is blocking the view. 

Seriously I would block all Mountain references. They are clearly Utah-centric. We need more beaches and palm trees in our songs. 

 Maybe take some Beach Boys songs and rewrite the words.

QED.I rest my case.

Mountains are good for keeping your north/south/east/west bearings and they have nice ski slopes, flowered meadows, and waterfalls.

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You should pay attention to the words. They are about Joseph Smith’s communion with Jehovah by which Jehovah accomplished His purposes in the latter days for the salvation and blessing of many, many generations of people.  

It’s not about worshiping Joseph, and it definitely is not about placing a man above Christ. 

For any knowledgeable and professing Church member who accepts the prophethood of Joseph Smith, there is no good reason to object to this hymn. 

Are you serious that all that is Doctrine? Joseph is exalted and mingles with gods, plans for the church, he ascended into heaven, and the Earth must atone for the blood of that man?

This is now doctrine and should be part of the Canon?

Or should our hymns be non-doctrinal?

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Maybe it is because I don't view Scott Lloyd's comment as sarcasm. It was derisive in anticipation of anyone having a problem with Praise to the Man.

Yes, this rhetorical device is called "sarcasm". He was not stating his own opinion he was stating derisively the opinion of others in anticipation of that outcome.

So Scott must be a prophet because he's right ! The outcome has come to pass, and sweet little me has fulfilled the prophecy.

I couldn't let it invitation like that just go by.

Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I don't think Hamba was referring to that type of choir music.  Did you listen to the 'video' he provided earlier with the children's choir?  Still picture, so not sure, but it didn't sound like they were dancing or jiving and it didn't sound like an American black gospel music as usually stereotyped (I don't have much experience with them, so my image is what pops up on TV and movies).  They sound like a classical children's choir in their harmony to me.  Sound of the words are different and there is an 'accent' in the music, but it is a soft sound to me.

Yes, I know the piece well. We recently performed it MOTAB-style with the Ensign Symphony and Choir in Seattle.(The choreography is from the original composition and is the way the piece is usually performed.) My comments were directed at the notion of white choirs singing in the black gospel choir style or in some other distinctive cultural style that is not their own. Some more radical folks would call that “cultural appropriation.” Some folks absolutely adore it and think it is a wonderful tribute. I just think it is kind of odd, but what do I know? You decide. 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, Gray said:

I was with you until "rewrite the words"

There you go. How about Good Vibrations?

[mfbukowski]

Cat Stevens "Morning has Broken"

Jefferson Airplane "Crown of Creation"

I mean if we have had non-doctrinal stuff for years why not this stuff?

[RevTestament]

50 minutes ago, Gray said:

I was with you until "rewrite the words"

U must be thinking of their version of We Three Kings. ..

 

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

We have an almost religious attachment to the music we like and don’t like. In this thread I have maintained along with Scott that putting together a new hymn book that pleases everyone will be very difficult.

Folks here are expressing pretty strong feelings about hymns they love and hymns they don’t. A hymn someone adores could be one someone else adamantly believes should be removed. Or someone may fervently have  a favorite they want added, but another may think it is awful.

It’s going to be a difficult task especially considering all the cultural and ethnic boundaries it will have to cross.

Totally agree it's impossible.

You can't please all the people all the time.

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Cat Stevens "Morning has Broken"

I actually put Morning has Broken on my list of inclusions. Cat Stevens did a remake, but people tend to think it is his song. It is a good song around Passover.

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, RevTestament said:

U must be thinking of their version of We Three Kings. ..

 

I can never find "Orientar" on a map.

[JAHS]

46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Put converts on your list.

I don't sing it.

 I was totally shocked when I first heard that song.

I found it kind of scary. What kind of weird cult am I getting into?

Blood atonement and mingling with Gods?

Is this a revelation that Joseph is now exalted, and is in charge of planning for the church? Is this doctrinal that it should be in a hymn? And that he ascended to Heaven as Jesus did?

Is it a fact that his grave is now empty?

 

The song doesn't say anything about his grave being empty or that he is exalted yet. We only know that he is in heaven now (meaning Spirit world) with the other prophets. 
Some of the words are written in future perfect or prophetic perfect tense; a way of referring to a person's future position as if it already exists and then comparing that person to himself in that future roll (like Joseph being a God) 

Edited June 19, 2018 by JAHS

[mfbukowski]

Just now, RevTestament said:

I actually put Morning has Broken on my list of inclusions. Cat Stevens did a remake, but people tend to think it is his song. It is a good song around Passover.

Yep, not his song but a great one!