Announcement Re: Revisions to Hymnbook and Children's Songbook

[JulieM]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

Correct.  I posted that some have connected that line in "Praise To The Man" to the Oath of Vengeance that was taken by members in the Nauvoo temple.  I said nothing about the members needing to take that vengeance out themselves.  I find the connection to be interesting and hadn't really looked into it before, but when you read the words of Eliza R. Snow's poem (written right after the murders) combined with the timing of the hymn being written and their connection as well (the hymn and the poem), it helps me make some sense out of that wording.  

I don't believe that most members believed they were to go out hunting for those who were in the mob that killed Joseph or even take it upon themselves to avenge the blood of the Prophets if they had the chance..  But it appears that some did:

 

It's an interesting topic....and I'm just responding and explaining what I was asked to clarify.  It's off topic, so we should take this to a new thread if someone wants to discuss if further....

Thanks, all of this is of interest to me to read.

Its a good thing that oath of vengeance was removed (I can see why some took it to heart and would have acted it out themselves).  I can’t see where instilling vengeance in member’s hearts would ever be a good thing.  Those were different times though, I know. 

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It was not universally acclaimed by teens in my world (born and reared in the Church) either, but even so, for those of us who felt kinship and community with other members of the Church, it was exciting to see some of our own achieve such success in the national stage and to see one of our indigenous hymns performed every week on a national network variety show. 

I understand.

On the other hand to a kid in Southern California EVERYBODY on TV is from your home town and you might have seen them literally in the grocery store so it ain't no biggie.

To us it looks kind of quaint and parochial to see folks get excited about local issues/ celebrities going national, paying money for a tour driving past their houses, etc.

Like I said, worlds colliding and the task is to unify those worlds.

Not gonna be easy.

I was going to do screen shots to contrast all the white blonde kids in the choir VS the images of the brown youth who are members elsewhere in the world in the recent youth devotional.  Too much work and then no Utah lifers (not converts) will get it anyway

The difference is actually kind of shocking if you want to see it.  Just look at the first part of the videos shown and contrast them with the reality of the youth choirs racially and you may see it.

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/special-youth-devotionals?lang=eng

 

[RevTestament]

57 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That will be be just one of the huge hurdles the committees will have to jump over.

It will need to be a committee of composers then. I kinda think the Church will have to abandon this particular goal. Rewriting all those hymns into different languages? - a monstrous and almost impossible task. I realize that a few songs have multiple language versions, but trying to write Handel's Messiah, in Japanese, or African dialect? Ouch. Just not an enviable task. That is essentially what they are suggesting by trying to rewrite all these hymns into different languages. I am surprised that it is even being considered. It just doesn't seem practical. I don't think they realize the musical barriers to this task. 

Now if composers in all the various different countries submit versions of these hymns in their own languages that is the best I think the Church can hope for. But I sincerely doubt that we will see uniform hymns in all the different languages now spoken in the Church. And I kinda think we shouldn't aspire to a goal of that type of uniformity. 

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

It will need to be a committee of composers then. I kinda think the Church will have to abandon this particular goal. Rewriting all those hymns into different languages? - a monstrous and almost impossible task. I realize that a few songs have multiple language versions, but trying to write Handel's Messiah, in Japanese, or African dialect? Ouch. Just not an enviable task. That is essentially what they are suggesting by trying to rewrite all these hymns into different languages. I am surprised that it is even being considered. It just doesn't seem practical. I don't think they realize the musical barriers to this task. 

Now if composers in all the various different countries submit versions of these hymns in their own languages that is the best I think the Church can hope for. But I sincerely doubt that we will see uniform hymns in all the different languages now spoken in the Church. And I kinda think we shouldn't aspire to a goal of that type of uniformity. 

Great comments! Thanks.

[Stargazer]

On 6/18/2018 at 6:27 PM, Amulek said:

That is pretty cool. 

I like that it will be the same set of hymns for all languages. No more having to look up two sets of hymns from different hymnbooks for different languages. 

The website is already active, so you can go ahead and make those suggestions now. 

Though, technically, I think "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" would be an add-back, rather than an add. I believe it was in the Hymnbook previously and was taken out when it was last revised back in the 80's. 

 

That is neat!  I love to perplex my wife in singing hymns in German, but sometimes I just can't find the German versions, and sometimes the German hymnal doesn't have the English hymns.  And sometimes there are German hymns that are not found in the English hymnal.  Es ist ein Ros Entsprungen comes to mind. It's in the current German hymnbook, and is popular with the German Saints, but I wonder if it will survive "correlation", since the Rose in the title is a symbolic reference to the Virgin Mary.  The English title is sometimes given as Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming.  But since the Tabernacle Choir has sung it, perhaps we will find it in the hymnbook when all is said and done:

 

 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, ALarson said:

Correct.  I posted that some have connected that line in "Praise To The Man" to the Oath of Vengeance that was taken by members in the Nauvoo temple.  I said nothing about the members needing to take that vengeance out themselves.  I find the connection to be interesting and hadn't really looked into it before, but when you read the words of Eliza R. Snow's poem (written right after the murders) combined with the timing of the hymn being written and their connection as well (the hymn and the poem), it helps me make some sense out of that wording.  

I don't believe that most members believed they were to go out hunting for those who were in the mob that killed Joseph or even take it upon themselves to avenge the blood of the Prophets if they had the chance..  But it appears that some did:

 

It's an interesting topic....and I'm just responding and explaining what I was asked to clarify.  It's off topic, so we should take this to a new thread if someone wants to discuss if further....

I think part of the problem is that when you are raised with the song in church as a kid you just hear the song and the beat and appreciate the music and it is uplifting.

As a little boy with that great music, "traitors and tyrants will fight him no more" it has kind of a victorious super-hero quality that would appeal to a young boy.  He beat out the bad guys in the end!!  Now he's with the good guys and gonna give those bad guys a whuppin'!  Yay!!

And then perhaps as an adult you actually read the words and actually hear what is being said and it becomes quite different, as you say, "you hadn't looked into it before" but when you read the words it's different

Suppose you were a 35 year old potential convert who had no positive association with the music, had not been raised with it, and only heard it for the first time HEARING what you "hadn't looked into before".   It's blood atonement and firing squads and Mountain Meadows.

Big difference. 

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I understand.

On the other hand to a kid in Southern California EVERYBODY on TV is from your home town and you might have seen them literally in the grocery store so it ain't no biggie.

To us it looks kind of quaint and parochial to see folks get excited about local issues/ celebrities going national, paying money for a tour driving past their houses, etc.

 

I totally understand. We were probably more excited here locally about The Beach Boys releasing a song called “Salt Lake City” than Californians were about them releasing a song called “California Girls.”

I would simply point out that not all shared communities are geographical, and it is not out of the realm of reason to think that even some Southern California Mormons we’re excited about the success of the King Family show back then. 

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, ALarson said:

Correct.  I posted that some have connected that line in "Praise To The Man" to the Oath of Vengeance that was taken by members in the Nauvoo temple.  I said nothing about the members needing to take that vengeance out themselves.  I find the connection to be interesting and hadn't really looked into it before, but when you read the words of Eliza R. Snow's poem (written right after the murders) combined with the timing of the hymn being written and their connection as well (the hymn and the poem), it helps me make some sense out of that wording.  

I don't believe that most members believed they were to go out hunting for those who were in the mob that killed Joseph or even take it upon themselves to avenge the blood of the Prophets if they had the chance..  But it appears that some did:

 

It's an interesting topic....and I'm just responding and explaining what I was asked to clarify.  It's off topic, so we should take this to a new thread if someone wants to discuss if further....

Thanks for the clarification. 

It’s just that the way you initially worded it could be taken to mean you believed the oath was personally binding upon the oath takers to go out and personally wreak the vengeance themselves when it is by no means definitive that this is what was being pledged. 

I’m glad to have this cleared up. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t remember seeing anything in there about Joseph already being exalted, though I do believe that at this point his exaltation is assured. 

I believe he is now in paradise in the spirit world, so yes, in a sense, he has ascended to heaven. I believe that, like all the faithful who have departed this life and gone to paradise, he works under the direction of the Father and the Son to help bring about Their work, which pertains to the salvation of God’s children. Furthermore, as Prophet of the Restoration whose grand mission was foretold in ancient scripture, he undoubtedly has a key role in that great work, for which he does interact or “mingle” with Deity. 

As for the earth atoning for his blood, I’ve already said in this thread that this strikes me as poetic language, but I do fervently believe that the wicked of this world will be held to answer for their acts in oppressing and slaying the prophets of God, Joseph Smith among the rest. 

I’m shocked and a bit saddened that this expression of belief seems to upset you so, but I can’t help that. For future reference, though, be it known that I hold the prophet of the Restoration in high esteem and will boldly express that, even as I witness the fulfillment of the statement of Jesus Christ I have quoted in my signature line, that “fools will have [Joseph Smith] in derision.”

Well I have never been called a fool before nor even thought that I was deriding Joseph

I am deriding somebody's words about Joseph which are false and misleading

Honestly, I see a lot of weasel word here, professional wordsmith that you are, about different ways we can take what it says.  Of course there are different ways we can take anything spoken, but my original shocked reaction to the song the first time I heard it as a convert was to take what it said literally, fool that I am.  Exalted, mingling and planning with the gods, and blood atonement.

Clearly the reference is to blood atonement, a doctrine abandoned by the church.  Clearly the only way one can literally "mingle with gods" is when one is exalted.

I pray but don't "mingle", perhaps you do, I don't know.

If the song offends people it should go.  There is ample evidence here that it does offend people.

And that's quite enough from me I can see.

[Scott Lloyd]

53 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think part of the problem is that when you are raised with the song in church as a kid you just hear the song and the beat and appreciate the music and it is uplifting.

As a little boy with that great music, "traitors and tyrants will fight him no more" it has kind of a victorious super-hero quality that would appeal to a young boy.  He beat out the bad guys in the end!!  Now he's with the good guys and gonna give those bad guys a whuppin'!  Yay!!

And then perhaps as an adult you actually read the words and actually hear what is being said and it becomes quite different, as you say, "you hadn't looked into it before" but when you read the words it's different

Suppose you were a 35 year old potential convert who had no positive association with the music, had not been raised with it, and only heard it for the first time HEARING what you "hadn't looked into before".   It's blood atonement and firing squads and Mountain Meadows.

Big difference. 

There’s no more reason why a potential convert <has> to attach those hostile interpretations to the hymn’s words than he <has> to entertain anti-Mormon distortions of any other aspect of Mormonism. If need be he can ask for and receive explanation or instruction about the real meaning of the words as understood and accepted by the Mormon faith community. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[JAHS]

18 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That is neat!  I love to perplex my wife in singing hymns in German, but sometimes I just can't find the German versions, and sometimes the German hymnal doesn't have the English hymns.  And sometimes there are German hymns that are not found in the English hymnal.  Es ist ein Ros Entsprungen comes to mind. It's in the current German hymnbook, and is popular with the German Saints, but I wonder if it will survive "correlation", since the Rose in the title is a symbolic reference to the Virgin Mary.  The English title is sometimes given as Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming.  But since the Tabernacle Choir has sung it, perhaps we will find it in the hymnbook when all is said and done:

I remember a song in the German LDS hymn book called Mäßigkeit.  It was sung to the music of "Tramp Tramp Tramp the boys are Marching".  I think the English version was "In our Lovely Deseret".
The Austrian and German LDS members loved to sing that one. We don't seem to sing it in church much in the US.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There’s no reason why a potential convert <has> to attach those hostile interpretations to the hymn’s words than he <has> to entertain anti-Mormon distortions of any other aspect of Mormonism. If need be he can ask for and receive explanation or instruction about the real meaning of the words as understood and accepted by the Mormon faith community. 

And the Mormon faith community can do a survey on how those in their community feel about the song and decide from there if enough read it in a way that disturbs them to justify removing it.

It will be interesting to see if it gets removed.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

In Happy Valley, there are two parallel mountain ranges that define east and west. Same where I grew up near Santa Fe, NM. 

If we are going to exalt geography it should be around the sacred grove, Western New York where I used to live.

Flat as a pancake.  Horizon 7 miles or so.  The creek was North, the orchard south, the swimming pool was west and the yellow neighbor's house was east.

Go a few hundred feet in any direction in the woods and you could get lost.  Them dang trees all look alike!  

THAT is the gospel in a nutshell.  If you don't know which direction you are going in your heart, all the trees look alike.

 

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There’s no reason why a potential convert <has> to attach those hostile interpretations to the hymn’s words than he <has> to entertain anti-Mormon distortions of any other aspect of Mormonism. If need be he can ask for and receive explanation or instruction about the real meaning of the words as understood and accepted by the Mormon faith community. 

And there is no reason anyone has to accept anything.  Not much of a point. 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Prof]

16 hours ago, JulieM said:

I love “ How Great Thou Art” and always choke up when it’s sung in church.  This was sung at both my sweet Mom’s and my dear Dad’s funeral services who both died way too young.  I can’t make it through this song without crying. 

I believe that so many memories are connected to so many of our great hymns.  I love most of them!  I can’t ever stop going to church because I love our hymns so much!

It hits me the same way. It was sung at my dad's funeral as well.

My mom gets choked up when she hears Elvis sing it on the radio. 

Classic hymn!

[Prof]

Joy to the world.

Keep the song!

Change "and Saints and Angels sing" back to "and Heaven and Nature sing"

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I have never been called a fool before nor even thought that I was deriding Joseph

I am deriding somebody's words about Joseph which are false and misleading

Honestly, I see a lot of weasel word here, professional wordsmith that you are, about different ways we can take what it says.  Of course there are different ways we can take anything spoken, but my original shocked reaction to the song the first time I heard it as a convert was to take what it said literally, fool that I am.  Exalted, mingling and planning with the gods, and blood atonement.

Clearly the reference is to blood atonement, a doctrine abandoned by the church.  Clearly the only way one can literally "mingle with gods" is when one is exalted.

I pray but don't "mingle", perhaps you do, I don't know.

If the song offends people it should go.  There is ample evidence here that it does offend people.

And that's quite enough from me I can see.

If you see weasel words, I see misinterpretation by those intent on misinterpreting the meaning. I don’t know much about your experience prior to joining the Church, but if you experienced shock when seeing the words, perhaps it’s because you had been exposed to some of the anti-Mormon attacks and were unwittingly seeing the words through that lens. 

You say it is clearly a reference to blood atonement. I’ve heard the song my whole life, and I had never attached that reference to them until ALarson brought it up in the last day or so. I’m thinking that only a comparatively infinitesimal proportion of the membership would attach such an association to those words, if they are even aware of it. And I assure you I am acquainted with the anti-Mormon attacks on the Church vis a vis that subject. 

And no, exaltation is not the only way one could mingle with Deity. Joseph Smith did so during the First Vision. The resurrected Christ visited the spirits in paradise and organized His forces to take the gospel to the spirits in prison. 

It’s time you and others stopped letting antagonism from anti-Mormons drive your attitude toward this hymn. It has long been a popular standard among the Latter-day Saints, and it is not going away. It is sung frequently in general conference. It is the title track to a Mormon Tabernacle Choir CD released just a few years ago. And it helps retain the prophet of the Restoration in honorable remembrance. 

On that subject, we are fast approaching the anniversary of the martyrdom. I lead the singing in priesthood meeting and it is my duty to select the hymns we sing. So in observance of the approaching anniversary, I will select that hymn for singing this Sunday. We will sing with gusto, as we always do. 

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

And the Mormon faith community can do a survey on how those in their community feel about the song and decide from there if enough read it in a way that disturbs them to justify removing it.

It will be interesting to see if it gets removed.

It remains one of the most popular hymns of the Restoration. 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It remains one of the most popular hymns of the Restoration. 

That may not save it if it is also one of the most divisive.  The purpose (as stated in the Handbook quote I posted) of worshipping with hymns is to pull the community together into one.  If a hymn isn't fulfilling that purpose, popularity even among a majority shouldn't ensure its survival, imo.  If it is confusing to many and has to be explained to be understood, that would appear to violate the standards of the new hymnal.

As a side note, I read the Old Testament for entertainment as a young teen and I connected the song with blood atonement then.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Prof said:

Joy to the world.

Keep the song!

Change "and Saints and Angels sing" back to "and Heaven and Nature sing"

“Saints and angels” is more dictrinally precise. 

“Heaven and nature” — what does that even mean?

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Calm said:

That may not save it if it is also one of the most divisive.

A few loud complainers does not constitute the hymn being divisive. 

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And there is no reason anyone has to accept anything.  Not much of a point. 

 

Then neither was yours. 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Prof said:

 

Change "and Saints and Angels sing" back to "and Heaven and Nature sing"

Yes, please.

[JulieM]

41 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There’s no reason why a potential convert <has> to attach those hostile interpretations to the hymn’s words than he <has> to entertain anti-Mormon distortions of any other aspect of Mormonism. If need be he can ask for and receive explanation or instruction about the real meaning of the words as understood and accepted by the Mormon faith community. 

Why is it anti-Mormon to connect some of the words to doctrine that used to be taught and an oath of vengeance that was once a part of the endowment during that time?

They are a part of our history and it actually helps me understand why those words are used in this hymn.  No need to hide or deny.  It seems pretty obvious when you read through all that’s been posted here about the history of the hymn and what else was being written, spoken and taught back then.

Edited June 19, 2018 by JulieM

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A few loud complainers does not constitute the hymn being divisive. 

It may be more than a few.  In my experience offline in my wards, it is about 50-50 among those who have an opinion about the song.

It would be nice if some of the survey results were released, but I don't think the survey is for the purpose of supporting arguments, so I doubt it will be.