RevTestament Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Yes, I know the piece well. We recently performed it with the Ensign Symphony and Choir in Seattle. Not that the ESC performance was akin to a minstrel show. The comments were directed at the notion of white choirs singing in the black gospel choir style or in other cultural styles. . It just seems odd to me, but that’s my own quirkiness, which as you know, is considerable. Some more radical folks would call that “cultural appropriation.” Some folks adore it! What do I know? You decide. Ya'know those Mormons... cultural thieves they are.... Now try putting that into English!!! And one may begin to realize the problems with cross-cultural songs
ksfisher Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Seriously I would block all Mountain references. Which gives us the geographic marvel of "Far, Far Away on Judea's Plains." 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: We need more beaches and palm trees in our songs. So "Firm as the Sandy Beaches Around Us"? 1
RevTestament Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I can never find "Orientar" on a map. Ha, haaaa. I could never find the three kings in the scriptures. There must have been about a thousand of them to scare Herod so badly... 1
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, JAHS said: The song doesn't say anything about his grave being empty or that he is exalted yet. We only that he is in heaven now (meaning Spirit world) with the other prophets. Some of the words are written in future perfect or prophetic perfect tense; a way of referring to a person's future position as if it already exists and then comparing that person to himself in that future roll (like Joseph being a God) Nice try but that is not future perfect tense. No " shall have beens" in sight. So now it's doctrinal that you mingle with God in the spirit world? That those who do mingle with gods are not Resurrected? We Mormons are literalists doncha know? So which is it? We believe in a worldwide flood and mingling with gods in the spirit world? You guys are just trying to keep a hymn that you grew up with because you like the music. I'm glad it brings back fond memories. But it's not doctrinal. Time to grow up and dump it. It's not for a worldwide Church in the 21st century. It's about as relevant as keeping a hymn about the Lincoln assassination. Yes he was a beloved president. Yes he was killed in that was a tragedy. But for Pete's sake it's been a long time. How about Battle Hymn of the Republic? That's got to be a goner too. I love it but it's totally inappropriate in the hymn book. Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski
Duncan Posted June 19, 2018 Author Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Some people don't actually have mountains around them. After all all they're good for is blocking the view. Seriously I would block all Mountain references. They are clearly Utah-centric. We need more beaches and palm trees in our songs. Maybe take some Beach Boys songs and rewrite the words. exactley!!! I live on the Canadian Prairies, ain't no mountain near here!!!! My Mom wants to discard that song about a "wintry day" or something, she's like do people in Africa sing about Winter? that's torture!!!!
bluebell Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Let's get rid of Faith of our Fathers. It must be really uncomfortable for converts, who have left the faith they were raised in, to sing. That song only works if one assumes that the person singing it has pioneer ancestry or was born in the church and has faithful parents. 1
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yep, not his song but a great one! “Cat’s in the Cradle” for a Fathers Day song.
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) Oops...responded to wrong poster Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
ALarson Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Put converts on your list. I don't sing it. I was totally shocked when I first heard that song. I found it kind of scary. What kind of weird cult am I getting into? Blood atonement and mingling with Gods? Is this a revelation that Joseph is now exalted, and is in charge of planning for the church? Is this doctrinal that it should be in a hymn? And that he ascended to Heaven as Jesus did? Is it a fact that his grave is now empty? Here's some interesting thoughts regarding this hymn: "The Problem with 'Praise to the Man'": https://agauhg.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/problempttm/ Quote Un-doctrinal Statements: I can find no scriptural statements which directly correspond to these statements…Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer. While I believe that Joseph was chosen by Jesus, there is no scripture that teaches that Jesus anointed him. I can find no scriptural statements which directly correspond to this statement… I think it’s meant to be poetic rather than “true” and for my purposes, the poetry here does not justify the artistic license of teaching our saints “doctrine.”Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; While I certainly believe that Joseph will be exalted, we have no scripture that states that he has been, or even that he is currently meeting with the Godhead and “planning for his brethren.” I believe he’s at work, but again, this feels more like poetry that doesn’t teach scripturally based principles.Great is his glory and endless his priesthood. While I certainly believe that Joseph will have great glory given to him through the Savior’s atonement, and that he holds an endless priesthood, I do not feel it proper to call it “his” priesthood any more than it is “his” or President Monson’s church, or that the Urbana Ward is “Bishop Johnson’s ward.” It all belongs to God. And while everyone will shake their heads and say, “Well of course, we all KNOW that!” I ask, “Why can’t our hymns reflect what we ALL know?”Earth must atone for the blood of that man. While I recognize there are scriptures that talk about the earth calling unto the heavens for vengeance4 on behalf of the faithful martyrs, I know of none that teaches that the earth itself has to atone for Joseph’s blood. Too much of this phrase sounds too familiar to statements from the Journal of Discourses encouraging a belief in mortal “blood atonement” which the Church has officially denounced5as doctrine. Too much of this phrase sounds too familiar to the “Oath of Vengeance” formerly included as part of the endowment ceremony: wherein members covenanted to pray for God to “avenge the blood of the prophets upon” the United States, and that they would teach the “same to your children and to your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.”6 I’ve never made that promise, and I feel no obligation to continue any form of that teaching. I want to follow the example of Heber J Grant who had the oath removed in 1927. I have to admit that I like this hymn and enjoy singing it (the melody and tempo is what I enjoy). However, I do cringe at some of the words and now I understand more about them (doing some searches inspired by this discussion).
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) Oops...replied to wrong poster Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui
RevTestament Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: “Cat’s in the Cradle” for a Fathers Day song. Oh, come on now. Morning Has Broken is a beautiful hymn, which praises God for each new day. It is great for Resurrection Sunday. It was written by Eleanor Farjeon as a Christian hymn using a Scottish Gaelic melody (must be why I like it). It was published in 1931. Cat's in the cradle is just a secular song. 1
Tacenda Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, ALarson said: Here's some interesting thoughts regarding this hymn: "The Problem with 'Praise to the Man'": https://agauhg.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/problempttm/ I have to admit that I like this hymn and enjoy singing it (the melody and tempo is what I enjoy). However, I do cringe at some of the words and now I understand more about them (doing some searches inspired by this discussion). During the begininning of my crisis of faith in the church, during a Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher had us sing "Praise to the Man". I replaced 'Joseph Smith' with 'Jesus Christ' as I sang, thinking I sang it softly enough, but a woman sitting next to me caught me doing it. It was kind of awkward.
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) " the Earth must atone for the blood of that man" Quote In Mormonism, blood atonement is a controversial doctrine that taught that some crimes are so heinous that the atonement of Jesus does not apply. Instead, to atone for these sins the perpetrators should be killed in a way that would allow their blood to be shed upon the ground as a sacrificial offering. The doctrine is no longer accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints(LDS Church),[1] but it was significantly promoted during the Mormon Reformation, when Brigham Young governed the Utah Territory as a near-theocracy. Sins that Young and other members of his First Presidencymentioned as meriting blood atonement included miscegenation, apostasy, theft, murder, fornication, and adultery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement And this is the reason Utah was the only state that had firing squads- AND as a relic of these times still have that possibility as a option in case where a lethal injection does not work. The murderer's blood must be spilled on the ground to atone for his sins. Hanging was not good enough- blood had to be spilled. This is a really bizarre belief that really has no basis in scripture. So we really want to re-affirm this doctrine by keeping this hymn? Re-word it at least! Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
RevTestament Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 43 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Nice try but that is not future perfect tense. No " shall have beens" in sight. So now it's doctrinal that you mingle with God in the spirit world? That those who do mingle with gods are not Resurrected? We Mormons are literalists doncha know? So which is it? We believe in a worldwide flood and mingling with gods in the spirit world? You guys are just trying to keep a hymn that you grew up with because you like the music. I'm glad it brings back fond memories. But it's not doctrinal. Time to grow up and dump it. It's not for a worldwide Church in the 21st century. It's about as relevant as keeping a hymn about the Lincoln assassination. Yes he was a beloved president. Yes he was killed in that was a tragedy. But for Pete's sake it's been a long time. 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: During the begininning of my crisis of faith in the church, during a Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher had us sing "Praise to the Man". I replaced 'Joseph Smith' with 'Jesus Christ' as I sang, thinking I sang it softly enough, but a woman sitting next to me caught me doing it. It was kind of awkward. I like the song, and don't have a problem praising Joseph Smith, but I do think a rewrite would be appropriate. I don't think that will go over so well with the majority of my Utah brethren so maybe I'll just do it, and leave it for the Church to decide later Mingling with gods? Sure. I believe early saints will be awarded the status of elohim along with Joseph. Is he planning for his breithren? Possibly. We do know in the re-generation those who follow Yeshua will be judges of Israel. Maybe he is planning already. Shall earth atone for his blood? Punishment is not atonement, but shall those who persecuted seek his forgiveness? I believe they will, yes. So in that sense they are atoning. If he forgives them, then they can receive forgiveness of the Father. He was murdered, which is a grave offense - not that he was completely innocent in the matter by having a press destroyed.
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 20 minutes ago, Tacenda said: During the begininning of my crisis of faith in the church, during a Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher had us sing "Praise to the Man". I replaced 'Joseph Smith' with 'Jesus Christ' as I sang, thinking I sang it softly enough, but a woman sitting next to me caught me doing it. It was kind of awkward. I just don't sing it. If people question it, I give them a lecture. You know how those go. 1
Tacenda Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I just don't sing it. If people question it, I give them a lecture. You know how those go. Haha, I'd love to be there in person for that!!
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, ALarson said: Here's some interesting thoughts regarding this hymn: "The Problem with 'Praise to the Man'": https://agauhg.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/problempttm/ Some observations.... Quote Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer, Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren, Great is his glory and endless his priesthood..... D&C 138: 51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, 52 And continue thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which were held in reserve for them that love him. 53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work, 54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world. 55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God. 56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men. 57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead. D&C 132:29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne. 30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins--from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph--which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them. 31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself. 32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved. Quote Earth must atone for the blood of that man. 2 Nephi 26: 3 And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. 4 Wherefore, all those who are proud, and that do wickedly, the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, for they shall be as stubble. 5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them, and whirlwinds shall carry them away, and buildings shall fall upon them and crush them to pieces and grind them to powder. 6 And they shall be visited with thunderings, and lightnings, and earthquakes, and all manner of destructions, for the fire of the anger of the Lord shall be kindled against them, and they shall be as stubble, and the day that cometh sWhenhall consume them, saith the Lord of Hosts. Moses 7: 48 And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I rest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me?When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face? Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui 3
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 33 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Oh, come on now. Morning Has Broken is a beautiful hymn, which praises God for each new day. It is great for Resurrection Sunday. It was written by Eleanor Farjeon as a Christian hymn using a Scottish Gaelic melody (must be why I like it). It was published in 1931. Cat's in the cradle is just a secular song. Of course I was jesting...you know, Beach Boys..... Yes, but the lesson of Cat’s is appropriate for Fathers Day. I love this beautiful Polish carol. It must be included.
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Duncan said: exactley!!! I live on the Canadian Prairies, ain't no mountain near here!!!! My Mom wants to discard that song about a "wintry day" or something, she's like do people in Africa sing about Winter? that's torture!!!! Quote The wintry day, descending to its close, Invites all wearied nature to repose, And shades of night are falling dense and fast, Like sable curtains closing o’er the past. Pale through the gloom the newly fallen snow Wraps in a shroud the silent earth below As tho ’twere mercy’s hand had spread the pall, A symbol of forgiveness unto all. I love the sentiments and imagery of that hymn, plus the melody is musically excellent. How dare you poopoo it! One of my favorites, but we rarely sing it. I think it is the best of the pioneer memorial hymns plus it has great doctrinal allusions. Quote Away beyond the prairies of the West, Where exiled Saints in solitude were blest, Where industry the seal of wealth has set Amid the peaceful vales of Deseret, Unheeding still the fiercest blasts that blow, With tops encrusted by eternal snow, The tow’ring peaks that shield the tender sod Stand, types of freedom reared by nature’s God. Maybe the hymn book can have regional sections...Mountains, plains, deserts, islands, big cities, small towns, tundra, Arctic, etc. QED. I rest my case. Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
Bernard Gui Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I just don't sing it. If people question it, I give them a lecture. You know how those go. Who would even care if you weren’t singing? Busybodies.... 1
Gray Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: There you go. How about Good Vibrations? Totally fine as is. Good Vibrations = confirmation that she's the one you want to take to the temple 1
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: QED.I rest my case. Mountains are good for keeping your north/south/east/west bearings and they have nice ski slopes, flowered meadows, and waterfalls. I love mountains! In Hawaii there are two directions- toward the mountain or toward the beach, Mauka or Makai. But using those terms would be odd to Utahns- yes? Quote I was reading HONOLULU Magazine over the weekend and noticed an ad for a shop in Hawaii’s largest mall, Ala Moana Center. The ad provides directions to the shop saying that it was on the “mauka side” of the shopping center. What that ad means is that the shop is located on the mountain side of the mall. https://www.govisithawaii.com/2011/03/31/hawaii-vacation-words-to-know-mauka-makai/ Cute but not too international! I don't think Hawaiians are too concerned about ski slopes. But the point is that if we had those terms in our Hymns repeated over and again they would clearly be Hawaii-centric as are the constant mountain references in Utah. "High on the mauka side A banner is unfurled... " Yes I know the Isaiah reference- that is not the point! It is the constant reference to Utah stuff.
John Pack Lambert Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I was beginning to think I was the only one left alive who remembers that show. It was quite the sensation. A 1960s national network variety series starring a huge, extended Mormon family stemming from a Big Band era sister act that had competed with the Andrews Sisters in the 1940s. This pre-dated Osmondmania by a few years, although the Osmond Brothers had already made their mark on the Andy Williams Show. I believe Lex de Azevedo's mother was one of the King Sisters.
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 52 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Of course I was jesting...you know, Beach Boys..... Yes, but the lesson of Cat’s is appropriate for Fathers Day. I love this beautiful Polish carol. It must be included. YES!!!!!!! NOW you are talking! THAT is international!! 1
John Pack Lambert Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I can't tell if you're joking or serious. If the latter, do you feel this same way when you hear an African congregation 'imitating' white Saints by singing, say, 'The Spirit of God'??? Cultural appropriation is only disallowed in some ways. OK, I think all the attacks on cultural appropriation are the height of both racism and historical ignorance. One culture adopting the styles and products and cultural artifacts of another is nothing new. It has been going on for hundreds of years. Cultures change constantly. Anyway, who exactly gets to be part of what culture? For example, at the "Be One" celebration Alex Boye did a performance of the Lord's Prayer sung in Swahili. I won't even get into how anti-cultural appropriation rhetoric would treat the mainly white backup choir, or other issues. Boye is the British born son of Nigerians. Swahili is a language of Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Uganda and the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. It is not at all connected to the culture and history of Nigeria. Arguably the Swahili were historically some of the most active participants in the slave trade, ensalving and exporting from Africa many milliions of people, mainly to the Middle East and India, but some also into Brazil. Another way exist to look at this. Fighting "cultural appropriation" makes no economic sense in most cases for artist in a particular culture. It gives everyone a greater chance to participate in the production of art that people will receive. Any choir singing an African-American spiritual makes it more likely that people will want to hear such things performed by choirs that excel in such productions. Culture and language change and flow, and rigidity and articificial walls against its spread just lead to dislike and emnity. Bridges of understanding are built by interactions with others culture.
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