JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: As the martyrdom anniversary date is coming up, I thought I would share this video of “Praise to the Man” by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. By the way, it has 21,000 likes and only 86 thumbs down (I’m thinking there are at least enough ambient anti-Mormons on the internet to account for that). Come on now. Members who dislike this song are not anti-Mormons. That’s pretty extreme! 3
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, JulieM said: Come on now. Members who dislike this song are not anti-Mormons. That’s pretty extreme! I always liked that hymn, though I did feel it bordered on idolatry. But I’m one o’ them anti-Mormons, so what do you expect?
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Those who have an opinion are not those wouldn't care one way or the other if it is removed or kept. IOW, I have my doubts it is as popular as you claim. Rather when people do care about it, they tend to have strong opinions...and in our culture at church, negative opinions are expressed much less often than positive ones, imo. Are you not reading my posts completely? I thought it would be obvious I hold the position that the survey people will have this type of info, don't see it as possible for an individual member not involved in worldwide music leadership to know unless this info has been shared with them. It may be very popular in Utah (impossible for me to tell in my ward as songs are not chosen by popularity and people sing generally at the same level of volume and commitment for majority of the songs), it may or may not be elsewhere in the US and very likely may not be as popular outside the US where there is less history of longterm use because units are newer, percentage of converts higher. I still, off the top of my head, recall the title of the Swedish translation, “Prisvärd âr Han” (“Praiseworthy Is He). Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, JulieM said: Come on now. Members who dislike this song are not anti-Mormons. That’s pretty extreme! Not saying they are. Just saying there are way more than enough anti-Mormons frequenting the Internet for there to be 86 “dislikes,” especially where Joseph Smith is concerned.
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I always liked that hymn, though I did feel it bordered on idolatry. But I’m one o’ them anti-Mormons, so what do you expect? Well, I know many members of my family actually used the word “hate” when we talked about singing it at our reunion. They are all active, strong, temple going members (one was even the bishop at the time). I think you can dislike that hymn and still have great love for the Prophet Joseph. Maybe some actually know the meaning of some of the words and hated those past doctrines? Who knows? But it makes perfect sense that some of the doctrines being taught would have been used in some of the hymns written at that time. Edited June 19, 2018 by JulieM 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, JulieM said: Well, I know many members of my family actually used the word “hate” when we talked about singing it at our reunion. They are all active, strong, temple going members (one was even the bishop at the time). I think you can dislike that hymn and still have great love for the Prophet Joseph. Maybe some actually know the meaning of some of the words and hated those past doctrines? Who knows? But it makes perfect sense that some of the doctrines being taught would have been incorporated in some of the hylmb written at that time. Again, I don’t think very many people at all associate that line with blood atonement or the “oath of vengeance,” assuming there was an intended association, which has not been definitively established. Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Again, I don’t think very many people at all associate that line with blood atonement or tha “oath of vengeance,” assuming there was an intended association, which has not been definitively established. I’ll bet many older members may. There’s actually quite a bit written that I’ve seen now that makes the connection. I did always wonder about that line in the song. When you read all that’s been posted here (and I did some more looking too), it makes sense. There’s nothing negative as it was taught in the early days and believed by many members as the truth. Probably many wonder when they sing it (or some don’t really think about it), but then they don’t take the time to look into it. But I found it fascinating to learn. Edited June 19, 2018 by JulieM
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I always liked that hymn, though I did feel it bordered on idolatry. But I’m one o’ them anti-Mormons, so what do you expect? Still not getting the connection of “praise” to idolatry. The 13th Article of Faith says “if there is anything ... praiseworthy, we seek after these things.” Is that promoting idolatry, or is “praiseworthy” only supposed to pertain to God the Father?
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, JulieM said: I’ll bet many older members may. There’s actually quite a bit written that I’ve seen now that makes the connection. I did always wonder about that line in the song. When you read all that’s been posted here (and I did some more looking too), it makes sense. There’s nothing negative as it was taught in the early days and believed by many members as the truth. Probably many wonder when they sing it (or some don’t really think about it), but then don’t take the time to look into it. But I found it fascinating to learn. In my experience, older members are even less apt to be acquainted with this stuff than younger and middle aged. I’m fairly old now, and even though I have been exposed to this stuff, it never occurred to me to make that connection until ALarson brought it up. Even then, I thought it rather arcane. Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: Still not getting the connection of “praise” to idolatry. The 13th Article of Faith says “if there is anything ... praiseworthy, we seek after these things.” Is that promoting idolatry, or is “praiseworthy” only supposed to pertain to God the Father? Sorry. It just made me a little uncomfortable. I guess it was the nascent apostate in me back then. I just thought it was a little too close to worship.
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Sorry. It just made me a little uncomfortable. I guess it was the nascent apostate in me back then. I just thought it was a little too close to worship. No, that’s how some of my family members feel about it too. Obviously some here feel it too. I get that and can see why.
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, JulieM said: No, that’s how some of my family members feel about it too. Obviously some here feel it too. I get that and can see why. My dad says the same thing. I’m not criticizing the church for the hymn. I just always had conflicting emotions about it, and not because I disliked Joseph Smith. I was always in awe of him. 2
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: If it didn’t come up much around you, then there’s not a lot to conclude from your reported 50-50 straw poll. I didn't intend it to be anything, but a reflection on my own experience and why I do not view it as hyperpopular and therefore am of the opinion it could be considered for removal from the new hymnal. Edited June 19, 2018 by Calm 2
bluebell Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Again, I don’t think very many people at all associate that line with blood atonement or tha “oath of vengeance,” assuming there was an intended association, which has not been definitively established. I have to agree with you on this point. I always assumed it came from the verse in the BOM that teach that those who spill innocent blood will have to pay for it (symbolically speaking).
bluebell Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My dad says the same thing. I’m not criticizing the church for the hymn. I just always had conflicting emotions about it, and not because I disliked Joseph Smith. I was always in awe of him. Yes! I really dislike the song "I Believe in Christ," for example, and it has nothing to do with my feelings about Christ. 1
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Not saying they are. Just saying there are way more than enough anti-Mormons frequenting the Internet for there to be 86 “dislikes,” especially where Joseph Smith is concerned. Did I space on something? Where did 86 come from? Edited: Couldn't search on 86, but eventually found your post with the reference. I think a lot of LDS won't go out of their way to publicly condemn something associated with the Church, they just won't listen/watch the video. Edited June 19, 2018 by Calm 3
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 I looked up praise and found this online definition, which is consistent with the meaning I attach to it in the context of “Praise to the Man”: praise prāz/ verb 1. express warm approval or admiration of. "we can't praise Chris enough—he did a brilliant job" synonyms: commend, express admiration for, applaud, pay tribute to, speak highly of, eulogize, compliment, congratulate, sing the praises of, rave about, go into raptures about, heap praise on, wax lyrical about, make much of, pat on the back, take one's hat off to, lionize, admire, hail, ballyhoo; formallaud "the police praised Pauline for her courage in confronting the thieves" Now that I think of it, I’m suspecting that the notion that praise should be reserved for Deity stems from an esoteric Protestant tradition in which the exclamation “Praise God!” Is frequently uttered. But I think a normative understanding of the word is not so restrictive. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Calm said: Did I space on something? Where did 86 come from? Did you not see the YouTube video I posted? There are more than 21,000 likes and only 86 dislikes.
bluebell Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, Calm said: Did I space on something? Where did 86 come from? Edited: Couldn't search on 86, but eventually found your post with the reference. I think a lot of LDS won't go out of their way to publicly condemn something associated with the Church, they just won't listen/watch the video. Exactly. I don't care how much I disliked a song, I would never put a thumbs down on a video of the MOTAB choir. 1
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Did you not see the YouTube video I posted? There are more than 21,000 likes and only 86 dislikes. I saw the video, the numbers beneath did not register (sometimes my brain goes into speedreading mode even if I don't want it to and I start reading in blocks of text, large images seem to derail tracking). My mind went to the LDS survey as that was what is being talked about. Edited June 19, 2018 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Calm said: I saw the video, the numbers beneath did not register. My mind went to the LDS survey as that was what is being talked about. I’ve not seen the LDS survey. Is there a groundswell hatred there for “Praise to the Man”?
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’ve not seen the LDS survey. Is there a groundswell hatred there for “Praise to the Man”? There is no info currently being shared that I have seen. I thought maybe there were results so far being shared that you had access to.
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: If you see weasel words, I see misinterpretation by those intent on misinterpreting the meaning. I don’t know much about your experience prior to joining the Church, but if you experienced shock when seeing the words, perhaps it’s because you had been exposed to some of the anti-Mormon attacks and were unwittingly seeing the words through that lens. You say it is clearly a reference to blood atonement. I’ve heard the song my whole life, and I had never attached that reference to them until ALarson brought it up in the last day or so. I’m thinking that only a comparatively infinitesimal proportion of the membership would attach such an association to those words, if they are even aware of it. And I assure you I am acquainted with the anti-Mormon attacks on the Church vis a vis that subject. And no, exaltation is not the only way one could mingle with Deity. Joseph Smith did so during the First Vision. The resurrected Christ visited the spirits in paradise and organized His forces to take the gospel to the spirits in prison. It’s time you and others stopped letting antagonism from anti-Mormons drive your attitude toward this hymn. It has long been a popular standard among the Latter-day Saints, and it is not going away. It is sung frequently in general conference. It is the title track to a Mormon Tabernacle Choir CD released just a few years ago. And it helps retain the prophet of the Restoration in honorable remembrance. On that subject, we are fast approaching the anniversary of the martyrdom. I lead the singing in priesthood meeting and it is my duty to select the hymns we sing. So in observance of the approaching anniversary, I will select that hymn for singing this Sunday. We will sing with gusto, as we always do. You have a great imagination, and I do not recommend you take up a career in online psychoanalysis. I know religions and know the cult of personality when I see it. I recommend some study of paradigms other than your own way of seeing the world. I have studied religions all my life. I never even heard any doctrines of this tiny and , to the world, inconsequential church, much less the infinitesimally smaller population of those who care enough to oppose it, before God whacked me over the head with Moroni 10:5, which parallels precisely the philosophy of William James, of whom I was a devoted student, after a friend gave me a BOM If James had founded a church, this is it. I read very quickly and before I was done with the 7 weeks of missionary lessons which I sought out on my own, I had read the BOM and D&C and much more about church history, and McConkie's Mormon Doctrine. What was remarkable to me was that I expected to find a cult of personality around Joseph and could find none If there was a flaw, that would be it. And then I heard the song Edited June 19, 2018 by mfbukowski
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You have a great imagination, and I do not recommend you take up a career in online psychoanalysis. I know religions and know the cult of personality when I see it. I recommend some study of paradigms other than your own way of seeing the world. I never even heard any doctrines of this tiny and , to the world, inconsequential church, much less the infinitesimally smaller population of those who care enough to oppose it, before God whacked me over the head with Moroni 10:5, which parallels precisely the philosophy of William James, of whom I was a devoted student . If James had founded a church, this is it. I read very quickly and before I was done with the 7 weeks of missionary lessons which I sought out on my own, I had read the BOM and D&C and much more about church history, and McConkie's Mormon Doctrine. What was remarkable to me was that I expected to find a cult of personality around Joseph and could find none If there was a flaw, that would be it. And then I heard the song If the intent or effect of the hymn were to promote a “cult of personality,” wouldn’t it be remarkable that you found none, given the frequency with which it is sung and performed? Maybe it’s time you endeavored to understand the words in the way millions of Church members have over many generations.
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, Calm said: I saw the video, the numbers beneath did not register (sometimes my brain goes into speedreading mode even if I don't want it to and I start reading in blocks of text, large images seem to derail tracking). My mind went to the LDS survey as that was what is being talked about. I do the same thing In grad school I would skip pages and infer what I had missed in the middle, and reconstruct the argument of what steps it would take to get to B from A. Rarely, I missed a detail or two
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