jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 59 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: This was actually the topic of our FHE lesson this past Monday: how it is righteousness that creates individuality and makes us most fully ourselves whilst sin and rebellion result in an awful sameness. It is interesting that some people’s vision of heaven sounds a lot like hell. 1
Glenn101 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: There is a saying going around to the effect that if everyone is special, then no one is special. I suppose we could adapt that and wonder if, in a roomful of “exceptions” there are any true exceptions. In other words, if half the people in the room are not singing, it is questionable how many of them have good excuses. I believe that in God's eye we are all special, and unique. Every time I look at a new born child's face I believe that all are unique and special also. 10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Fill the measure of their creation and be unified in the process. “If he are not one, ye are not mine.” There be a lot of us in trouble. 😎 Glenn 1
Glenn101 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 9 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: Yes it does. This is Christianity 101 here. From the perspective that Christ atoned for all the sins of mankind I agree. But the atonement is not effective for sins for which one has not repented. Elsewise there would have been no need for Christ and the apostles to preach repentance. Glenn
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: It is interesting that some people’s vision of heaven sounds a lot like hell. I have found this to be the case for me with many different visions of heaven, both religious and otherwise. Thankfully, we get to taste from many different pots in this world. I know what tastes good to me, and it's neither soulless rigidity nor the hedonism of 'self-fulfilment'. 2
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, Hamba Tuhan said: I have found this to be the case for me with many different visions of heaven, both religious and otherwise. Thankfully, we get to taste from many different pots in this world. I know what tastes good to me, and it's neither soulless rigidity nor the hedonism of 'self-fulfilment'. Fortunately, neither extreme is required.
Paiute Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: Yes it does. This is Christianity 101 here. The Savior suffers for those sins, but the sinner is not saved if he doesn’t repent of them. You can’t be saved in your sins. This is Book of Mormon 101. Alma 11:41 “Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made,” Mosiah 16:5-6 Moroni 7:38
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, Glenn101 said: But the atonement is not effective for sins for which one has not repented. If this were true, all of us would currently be suffering the ineffable pangs of hell for our innumerable weaknesses and rebellion. We are not. So what is shielding us from the full awfulness of our sins? The Atonement of Jesus Christ. There are men and women on this planet who mock and deny the Lord, but they are currently enjoying the blessings of His atoning sacrifice without even realising it or believing in it. Such is the infinite reach of His mercy and power. As scripture indicates, someday in future, the Lord will withdraw this protection from the persistently unrepentant spirits in prison, and only then will they (and only they!) experience what He intends none of us to ever know: Quote 15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— 19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. Yes, repentance is necessary to remove the eventual need to face the full consequences of sin, but thankfully -- mercifully! -- the infinite Atonement is protecting me and all of us in the meantime, giving us space to learn and grow, to come to a place of understanding and desire, and to develop the capacity to forgive others in imitation of our Lord. Quote And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead. ----- And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God. For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated. 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 25 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Fortunately, neither extreme is required. Indeed, though often desired, it would seem.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, Paiute said: The Savior suffers for those sins, but the sinner is not saved if he doesn’t repent of them. You can’t be saved in your sins. This is Book of Mormon 101. Yes. Thank you for this clarification.
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Indeed, though often desired, it would seem. I don’t see the attraction for either.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: I don’t see the attraction for either. Same. Thankfully, neither does the Lord of the Restoration.
Paiute Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Then it's not really infinite its scope Bishop Richard C. Edgley in April 2002 General Conference: Elder C. Scott Grow in the April 2011 General Conference: Elder Russell M. Nelson in October 1996 General Conference: Elder Dallin H. Oaks in April 2006 General Conference: And from the Church's Gospel Topics entry on the Atonement (emphasis added): It would also mean that the Saviour lacks understanding of and empathy for the non-repentant. Bishop Edgley again: As well as the prophet Alma (emphasis added): It would also invalidate the words of Christ to the Nephites when He declared that 'I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me'. The Father does not issue commands that cannot be fulfilled. Throughout scripture, all men are commanded to come unto Christ and be redeemed in Him. That some will in the end not take up this offer does not change that the Atonement was and is infinite in its reach and that the offer therefore was and is valid. Regarding murder, please see above. Regarding the 'sin against the Holy Ghost', this is a tautology. Perdition is merely a state of completely rejecting the Saviour's offer of salvation through Him. The Atonement doesn't save those who commit the 'unpardonable sin' not because it can't but because they won't. I agree the Savior’s sacrifice and Atonement is infinite and eternal. He suffered the sins, transgressions, infirmities etc of all that He created, because He is the Creator, except the sins mentioned, sin against the Holy Ghost. But that does not mean that those who do not repent will be redeemed. This is Gospel Doctrine 101 Alma 11:41 D&C 19 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. —— 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God edit: I suspect we believe the same. Edited June 21, 2018 by Paiute
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Paiute said: He suffered the sins, transgressions, infirmities etc of all that He created, because He is the Creator, except the sins mentioned, sin against the Holy Ghost. Why do you keep wanting to put limits on the scope of the Atonement that the prophets have specifically rejected? Christ suffered for all, full-stop. The ultimate rejection of His offer of salvation, made possible by this vicarious suffering, doesn't mean He didn't fulfil His part.
Paiute Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Why do you keep wanting to put limits on the scope of the Atonement that the prophets have specifically rejected? Christ suffered for all, full-stop. The ultimate rejection of His offer of salvation, made possible by this vicarious suffering, doesn't mean He didn't fulfil His part. He didn’t atone for sons of perdition. That’s why they don’t receive a kingdom of glory. Study D&C 76. edit: He didn’t atone for Lucifer or the third that rebelled because they rejected Him as their Savior. They had full knowledge of who the Savior was and still rejected Him. Get it? Edited June 21, 2018 by Paiute 1
Glenn101 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: If this were true, all of us would currently be suffering the ineffable pangs of hell for our innumerable weaknesses and rebellion. We are not. So what is shielding us from the full awfulness of our sins? The Atonement of Jesus Christ. I disagree. Man and woman kind lived, loved, sinned, and died long before Christ's atoning sacrifice. When they got too far out of hand God intervened several times, a bit of chastening here, a lot there. Man and woman are still living, loving, sinning, and dying pretty much the same as always. I do not see any scriptural support for Christ's Atonement somehow keeping us from feeling the full impact of our sins in mortal life, except for the ones that we repent of. Do you have some scriptures that would support your position? Glenn
Calm Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Quote A significant part of Elder Callister’s book describes the meaning and the word “infinite,” especially as it is used with the word “Atonement.” He explains that the Atonement is infinite in eight specific ways: “First, as Elder Maxwell has suggested, it is ‘infinite in the divineness of the one sacrificed.’ The title of that stirring song, ‘O Divine Redeemer,’ is an apt reminder that he who brought about the Atonement is the consummate expression of godliness. “Second, it is infinite in power. The Savior went from grace to grace until he ‘received all power, both in heaven and on earth’ (D&C 93:17). “Third, the Atonement is infinite in time. It applies retroactively and prospectively through time immemorial. “Fourth, it is infinite in coverage. It applies to all God’s creations and all forms of life thereon. Elder Maxwell called it ‘infinite . . . in the comprehensiveness of its coverage.’ “Fifth, it is infinite in depth. It is infinite not only in who it covers, but in what it covers. ‘The Son of Man hath descended below them all’ (D&C 122:8). “Sixth, it is infinite in the degree of suffering endured by the Redeemer. It was that suffering that caused ‘even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore’ (D&C 19:18). “Seventh, it is infinite in love. The words of the hymn ‘He Died! The Great Redeemer Died’ are a powerful reminder of his boundless love: 'Here’s love and grief beyond degree; The Lord of glory died for men.' “Eighth, it is infinite in the blessings it bestows. The blessings of the Atonement extend far beyond its well-known triumph over physical and spiritual death. Some of these blessings overlap; some complement and supplement each other; but in the aggregate the effect of this event so blesses our lives in a multiplicity of ways, both known and yet to be discovered, that it might appropriately be said to be infinite in its blessing nature” (page 60). http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Profound-Insights-from-The-Infinite-Atonement/s/81642?page=2#story-content 1
Paiute Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 On 6/19/2018 at 7:18 PM, mfbukowski said: Oh man. You vs Paiute? Break out the popcorn. Did you enjoy the popcorn on your apricot tree? That song should stay in the Children's Songbook. What a way to contribute to the discussion! Good job little buddy!
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: Quote “Third, the Atonement is infinite in time. It applies retroactively and prospectively through time immemorial. “Fourth, it is infinite in coverage. It applies to all God’s creations and all forms of life thereon. Elder Maxwell called it ‘infinite . . . in the comprehensiveness of its coverage.’ “Fifth, it is infinite in depth. It is infinite not only in who it covers, but in what it covers. ‘The Son of Man hath descended below them all’ (D&C 122:8). http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Profound-Insights-from-The-Infinite-Atonement/s/81642?page=2#story-content Thanks, Calm. I haven't read Elder Callister's book, but clearly I should. I know that he personally gave a copy to one of my ministering families. (They were inactive at the time, and I'd recommended them for a visit.)
Calm Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 I have it. It is an excellent book. Next time you stop by, feel free to borrow it. 1
Michael Sudworth Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Paiute said: The Savior suffers for those sins, but the sinner is not saved if he doesn’t repent of them. You can’t be saved in your sins. This is Book of Mormon 101. Sounds like you missed seminary on the days physical and spiritual death were discussed.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Glenn101 said: I disagree. Man and woman kind lived, loved, sinned, and died long before Christ's atoning sacrifice. Yes, and they did so under the full umbrella of the infinite Atonement. As Calm noted in the passage she quoted above, 'the Atonement is infinite in time. It applies retroactively and prospectively through time immemorial'. This is why John in Revelation called Jesus 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world'. Furthermore, when he described the victory of the faithful over Lucifer and his supporters in the premortal war, he noted that 'they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb'. Our ability to defeat Satan was powered by the blood of the slain Christ -- i.e., the Atonement -- long before this world came into existence. Quote I do not see any scriptural support for Christ's Atonement somehow keeping us from feeling the full impact of our sins in mortal life, except for the ones that we repent of. Some questions: Do you believe that eternal damnation (hell) is the natural consequence for things that separate us from God? Is there currently anything in your life, either known or unknown, that you have need to repent of? If so, why are you not experiencing the eternal punishment of hell right now? If you refuse to repent to the very end, what specific change will then introduce you into the unspeakable suffering of hell? Some more questions regarding 2 Nephi 26: Quote And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. When will men be 'acted upon ... by the punishment of the law'? Before that happens, what specifically has made men 'free forever ... to act for themselves and not to be acted upon'? As this passage clearly refers to men in this mortal life, what does it mean that 'they are redeemed from the fall'? Edited June 21, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Paiute said: He didn’t atone for sons of perdition. So when you quoted the Saviour above -- 'For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all' -- how did you determine that He was not telling the full truth? Quote Study D&C 76. I have. Many times. Can you suggest a verse that teaches what you're teaching, that the Saviour omitted those who reject Him from His otherwise infinite Atonement? Edited June 21, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan
mfbukowski Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Paiute said: Did you enjoy the popcorn on your apricot tree? That song should stay in the Children's Songbook. What a way to contribute to the discussion! Good job little buddy! Old Deuteronomy also made it to the Heavyside Layer- you guys forgot that part.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Calm said: I have it. It is an excellent book. Next time you stop by, feel free to borrow it. I thought you lived in Orem and Hamba lived on one of the “isles of the sea.”
Calm Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I thought you lived in Orem and Hamba lived on one of the “isles of the sea.” Yep 1
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