Announcement Re: Revisions to Hymnbook and Children's Songbook

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Weren’t the Smoot hearings held to investigate polygamy?

Were they because of blood atonement as well?

I’d really be interested to know more, if so!

The Smoot hearings were to determine whether Sen. Reed Smoot from Utah should be seated in the U.S. Senate. Much of the opposition centered on the already-discontinued practice of polygamy (this was in 1904-1907, but it also dealt with other matters such as Mormon belief in revelation and politics in Utah.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But wasn't blood atonement preached by Brigham Young much later, during the Utah period? kllindley posted that "Praise to the Man" was written in Nauvoo, only about a month after the martyrdom (as confirmed by this Wikipedia entry).

Yes, I know when it was written.  Did you read what was posted that Eliza R. Snow wrote (she prefaced it by reading Phelp’s poem which became the hymn and also with reading the passages in Revelations on vengeance soon after Joseph’s death).  That all fits and the words are very similar.  Also the phrase about the blood being on the state of Illinois (paraphrasing but I can look it up), the words being changed to what we have today. And, iirc, Joseph taught some about blood atonement.  I’ll look more into that as well (that will have to be tomorrow).  

Edited June 20, 2018 by JulieM

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, John Pack Lambert said:

The actual problem with "The Wintry Day Descending to a Close" is that it lacks much of doctrine in any way.

It sums up the Plan of Salvation in a simple but  beautiful metaphor.

Quote

Pale through the gloom the newly fallen snow
Wraps in a shroud the silent earth below
As tho ’twere mercy’s hand had spread the pall,
A symbol of forgiveness unto all.

 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, ttribe said:

14 pages of arguing prompted by changes to the hymnbook...this place never disappoints. 🤣

About hymns.

QED. I rest my case.

[Paiute]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It sums up the Plan of Salvation in a simple but  beautiful metaphor.

 

Exactly!

The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the ^bearth, and ^call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its ^dmotion, yea, and also all the ^eplanets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Did you read Elder Oaks’s talk? I provided a link to it. 

Yeds. This thread is evidence that not all hymns are created equal. 

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, I know when it was written.  Did you read what was posted that Eliza R. Snow wrote (she prefaced it by reading Phelp’s poem which became the hymn and also with reading the passages in Revelations on vengeance soon after Joseph’s death).  That all fits and the words are very similar.  Also the phrase about the blood being on the state of Illinois (paraphrasing but I can look it up), the words being changed to what we have today.

Here are the words of the Eliza R. Snow poem, copied and pasted from ALarson's post:
 

Quote

 

For never, since the Son of God was slain,

Has blood so noble, flow’d from human vein

As that which now on God for vengeance calls

From “freedom’s ground”—from Carthage’s prison walls.

 

Oh! Illinois! thy soil has drank the blood

Of Prophets martyr’d for the truth of God.

Once lov’d America! what can atone

For the pure blood of innocence, thou’st sown?

Were all thy streams in teary torrents shed

To mourn the fate of those illustrious dead:

How vain the tribute, for the noblest worth

That grac’d thy surface, O degraded Earth!

 

I've read this through several times now, and I don't get "blood atonement' or "oath of vengeance" from these words. Can you connect the dots for me?

What passage, specifically, from the Book of Revelation are you referencing?

The former line to which you refer in "Praise to the Man" was "Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins stain Illinois while the earth lauds his fame." To me that's a rhetorical way of saying that the state of Illinois will long bear guilt and disgrace for the murders of Joseph and Hyrum.

The phrase "stain Illinois" was later taken out and substituted with "plead unto Heaven." A wise move, in my opinion, for those living in Illinois who were guilty of the Prophet's death have long since died, and no one now living today bears any responsibility for it.

But I don't see anything in that phrase that conveys the idea of  "blood atonement" or "oath of vengeance"? Can you explain?
 

Quote

 

And, iirc, Joseph taught some about blood atonement.  I’ll look more into that as well (that will have to be tomorrow).  

 

I thought the blood atonement sermons were in Journal of Discourses, sermons given during the Utah period.

I haven't been able to find anything from Joseph Smith on blood atonement, but perhaps you will be more successful than I. I'll be interested to see what you come up with.
Meanwhile, there is this passage in a Wikipedia entry:

 

Quote

As far as scholars can tell, the author of the blood atonement doctrine was LDS Church president Brigham Young, who first taught the doctrine after the death of Joseph Smith.^{[citation needed]} The doctrine first began to be taught, however, during the period when Brigham Young was Governor of the Utah Territory a period also known as the Mormon Reformation (1856–1858), particularly by Jedediah M. Grant of the First Presidency. Public talk of blood atonement diminished substantially by the end of the Mormon Reformation in 1858 when Young was replaced as territorial governor by Alfred Cumming. The subject of blood atonement remained largely dormant until the 1870s, when the issue was revived by the national media during the John D. Lee trials for his role in the Mountain Meadows massacre.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yeds. This thread is evidence that not all hymns are created equal. 

Be that as it may, Elder Oaks recounted an experience in which he was clearly bothered when he looked around and saw that many in the congregation were not singing. I got the clear impression from the talk that in our worship services, failing to sing is not an option.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It sums up the Plan of Salvation in a simple but  beautiful metaphor.

 

That's the only remotely doctrinal portion in the hymn, and it is, as you point out, veiled in metaphor. The rest is about the writer's longing to be back home in Utah (Deseret). He was on a mission at the time. Clearly, he was what we today would call "trunky."

That said, the music of the hymn is indeed beautiful.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

4 hours ago, kllindley said:

I think it is as likely that the addition of the Oath to the endowment was based on the song and section 135 than that the song references the Oath. The song was published only oneonth after the martyrdom. 

It’s intersting how it all fits together.  Thanks kllindley for more info on this!

I just read that it was not W.W. Phelps who wrote the words (poem), it was from Eliza R. Snow.  Do you know anything about that?

Here’s the link:

https://www.mormonchronicle.com/who-really-wrote-praise-to-the-man/

Quote:

”While there appears to be no question that W. W. Phelps was in the employ of John Taylor, editor and proprietor of the Times and Seasons at the time the poem first appeared in the paper on August 1, 1844, yet its authorship is there assigned to Eliza R. Snow (see facsimile following).

In the L.D.S. paper, the Frontier Guardian, published December, 1849, in Kanesville, Iowa, the hymn, Praise to the Man: was published with its authorship attributed to Miss Snow, as follows: Lines written by Miss Eliza R. Snow, upon the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer.

Under date of December 12, 1849, the Journal History of the Church also names her as author of the hymn.

In correspondence written November 5, 1951, Mr. C. Cameron Johns, President of the Utah Poetry Society, stated:

‘During the past years there have been many discussions as to whether the poet who wrote ‘Praise to the Man’ was W. W. Phelps or the poetess Eliza R. Snow. In my opinion there is within itself so much of that particular quality which distinguishes the writings of Miss Snow. To me the poem seems to express her personality every particle as much as ‘O My Father’… I’m certain that she should receive credit for the writing of the poem.’

How then did the story ever get started that W. W. Phelps was the author?

Although there is no evidence that W. W. Phelps ever claimed authorship yet in 1863 it was assigned to him in an English edition of the L.D.S. Hymn Book. It is quite apparent that some employee erred and his mistake has been carried down through the years until this noblest and sweetest spirit in Mormon poetry and song is deprived of the righteous honor of the authorship of this soul-stirring and beautiful tribute to the Prophet and Seer whom she so deeply revered.”

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, JulieM said:

It’s intersting how it all fits together.  Thanks kllindley for more info on this!

I just read that it was not W.W. Phelps who wrote the words (poem), it was from Eliza R. Snow.  Do you know anything about that?

 [snip]

So, whether the author was Eliza Snow or W.W. Phelps, is there anything in there about blood atonement or an oath of vengeance? I don't see it (see my prior post).

And since you've evidently been browsing the internet since posting last, did you find anything that says Joseph Smith taught blood atonement?

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I haven’t been able to find anything from Joseph Smith on blood atonement, but perhaps you will be more successful than I. I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

I agree it wasn’t strongly taught until Brigham Young preached it.  But there are quotes from Joseph about it too that I’ve read.  Here’s one:

 "In debate, George A. Smith said imprisonment was better than hanging. I replied, I was opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so" (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 296).

 

I’ll see if I can find more tomorrow, but I’m off of here as it’s getting late!

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Be that as it may, Elder Oaks recounted an experience in which he was clearly bothered when he looked around and saw that many in the congregation were not singing. I got the clear impression from the talk that in our worship services, failing to sing is not an option.

i understand, but I hope he’s not there when we sing Mountain Railway, March March March, or Go Telll Aunt Rhody.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, John Pack Lambert said:

The tune to "In Our Lovely Deseret" was written by a prominent Protestant hymnwriter, and was originally applied to a different song. It is interestingly the same person who wrote the tune to "Hark All Ye Nations". Which I still think is a much better hymn than "Come All Ye Souls who are enlighted" or whatever the current title of that stanza of colonialism "From Greenland's Icy Mountains" is. 

I looked it up. It started as "Tramp, Tramp, Tramp" a hymn for the liberation of union prisoners held by the defenders of slavery. It is also used as the tune of "Jesus Loves the Little Children". One time on my mission we sung this hymn with a family we were teaching, and they mentioned that connection. 

 

As the hymnbook says, you can mix and match words and tunes, as long as their metres match.  Apparently, it used to be the job of the ward music director to select which words to sing with which tunes.

Hark All Ye Nations is one of my favorite hymns, but I like it best in German, Sehet Ihr Voelker! Hymn number 174.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Be that as it may, Elder Oaks recounted an experience in which he was clearly bothered when he looked around and saw that many in the congregation were not singing. I got the clear impression from the talk that in our worship services, failing to sing is not an option.

Perhaps, but some of us should sing very very quietly.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Perhaps, but some of us should sing very very quietly.

Heh. 

I believe God loves monotoness. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As the hymnbook says, you can mix and match words and tunes, as long as their metres match.  Apparently, it used to be the job of the ward music director to select which words to sing with which tunes.

Hark All Ye Nations is one of my favorite hymns, but I like it best in German, Sehet Ihr Voelker! Hymn number 174.

I loved mixing and matching as ward choir director. I’ve even tried it leading the singing in priesthood meeting. It’s a challenge there, though, because we don’t have a piano in that room an thus must sing a capella. 

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, John Pack Lambert said:

The tune to "In Our Lovely Deseret" was written by a prominent Protestant hymnwriter, and was originally applied to a different song. It is interestingly the same person who wrote the tune to "Hark All Ye Nations". Which I still think is a much better hymn than "Come All Ye Souls who are enlighted" or whatever the current title of that stanza of colonialism "From Greenland's Icy Mountains" is. 

I looked it up. It started as "Tramp, Tramp, Tramp" a hymn for the liberation of union prisoners held by the defenders of slavery. It is also used as the tune of "Jesus Loves the Little Children". One time on my mission we sung this hymn with a family we were teaching, and they mentioned that connection. 

 

Ray Stevens had a hit song in the 1970s called “Everythinng Is Beautiful.”  It began with a group of children singing “Jesus loves the little children.”  I recognized the melody from the chorus of “In Our Lovely Deseret.”

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

i understand, but I hope he’s not there when we sing Mountain Railway, March March March, or Go Telll Aunt Rhody.

Or “Old Oaken Bucket.”

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As the hymnbook says, you can mix and match words and tunes, as long as their metres match.  Apparently, it used to be the job of the ward music director to select which words to sing with which tunes.

Hark All Ye Nations is one of my favorite hymns, but I like it best in German, Sehet Ihr Voelker! Hymn number 174.

Of course, just because you can mix and match doesn’t mean you should in every instance. 

Fot example, meter wise, Robert Frost’s poem, “On Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening” can be sung to the tune of “Hernando’s Hidesway.” And Emily ****inson’s “Because I could not stop for death, it kindly stopped for me” fits the tune of “Yellow Rose of Texas.” 

The results are hilarious. 

[jkwilliams]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Be that as it may, Elder Oaks recounted an experience in which he was clearly bothered when he looked around and saw that many in the congregation were not singing. I got the clear impression from the talk that in our worship services, failing to sing is not an option.

It may not necessarily be a sign of apathy when someone isn't singing. When I was first married, I noticed my wife never sang the hymns but would sit quietly next to me. I asked her why she didn't sing, and she said, "I have a terrible voice, and I'm tone deaf, so I don't want to embarrass myself." I said I had heard her sing to herself around the house, and she had a perfectly lovely voice and was obviously not tone deaf. She said, "Well, I've always been told I have a lousy voice." I asked her who told her that, and she said, "My mother." She was self-conscious at first, but she started singing in church.

I would think that participation in church meetings is a matter of personal choice, and if singing isn't something that engages you, I don't see why anyone should be bothered. And I say this as someone who misses singing hymns in church. It's the best part of the meetings.

[jkwilliams]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

OK, but what does that have to do with not wanting to sing a particular hymn, or just sitting it out for any reason? I can’t sing Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses because I cannot disassociate it from Life Is Like a Mountain Railroad. 

I love that hymn for one reason only. When I'd been on my mission for just a few weeks, we had a branch conference, and the choir number was "Nuestra Mente Se Refleja" (Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses). The choir consisted of 4 cholitas who had practiced a capella (the branch did not have a piano). The stake visitors had brought an electric keyboard with them, and these poor ladies didn't know the keyboard player was going to do an intro, so they all came in late on the first note of the intro. And they sang with a distinctive sound, where each note slid into the next one. When they got to "se refleja," it sounded like the notes were going over a waterfall. But they were so sincere and sweet that it just melted my heart. Every time I hear that hymn, I think of that tiny branch with its concrete floor and translucent green plastic roof, and those four little ladies singing their hearts out.

 

[CA Steve]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I love that hymn for one reason only. When I'd been on my mission for just a few weeks, we had a branch conference, and the choir number was "Nuestra Mente Se Refleja" (Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses). The choir consisted of 4 cholitas who had practiced a capella (the branch did not have a piano). The stake visitors had brought an electric keyboard with them, and these poor ladies didn't know the keyboard player was going to do an intro, so they all came in late on the first note of the intro. And they sang with a distinctive sound, where each note slid into the next one. When they got to "se refleja," it sounded like the notes were going over a waterfall. But they were so sincere and sweet that it just melted my heart. Every time I hear that hymn, I think of that tiny branch with its concrete floor and translucent green plastic roof, and those four little ladies singing their hearts out.

 

What a great story and picture!

 

Which one are you?

 

☺️

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

What a great story and picture!

Which one are you?

☺️

That is one of the only pictures of me in which I appear to be tall.

[Rain]

 

On 6/18/2018 at 3:00 PM, SouthernMo said:

I voted to have “There is Sunshine in My Soul Today” removed. No false doctrine there, no misplaced worship - just annoyance with the overly chipper lyrics and tune.

Its the LDS version of “Its a Small World.”

I can't stand "It's a Small World", but "There is Sunshine..." is one of my top 10. Wish we sang it more.

On 6/18/2018 at 4:12 PM, Michael Sudworth said:

IMO, never.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a day when our acknowledgement of Heavenly Mother is not such a cultural taboo.  Moving forward it will be a distinctive doctrine and, I think, draw in some new members sympathetic to feminism and looking for a a connection to female divinity.  Full discolure:  I don't really know what some people mean when the want this type of connection.  I'm a dude and I"m old.  But I do know that it is something many sisters have said that would  appreciate and enjoy.

If we came out swinging with our belief and adoration of Heavenly Mother, I think you would see a spike in converts.

For too long we've played it safe and presented ourselves as evangelicals and conservative protestants.  More fully embracing Heavenly Mother

I don't think being a dude has much to do with it. I do think many women long to connect on a female basis, but those men who connect with their earthly mother should have an understanding of wanting to connect with a spiritual mother. 

 

On 6/19/2018 at 8:12 AM, Gray said:

I was with you until "rewrite the words"

I attended church on the North of Grenada on Sunday.  Because the "buses" rarely run on Sunday in the North it would have been expensive to take a taxi to the south where our meetings were held so we had our own sacrament and attended a different church. 

The owner of the apartment we stayed in told us before that the singing was loud. He had a talk with them and they quieted a lot, but outside and half a block away you could still hear them well. (We only attended the first of 4 hours). He said he loved the tunes (Bob Dylan and other artists), but didn't like that they changed the words.  So while he was in his house and on his farm he would sing along with them with the original words.  He was a character.

 

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Be that as it may, Elder Oaks recounted an experience in which he was clearly bothered when he looked around and saw that many in the congregation were not singing. I got the clear impression from the talk that in our worship services, failing to sing is not an option.

I love to sing. Sometimes when I sing it is wonderful. Sometimes quite painful. I often don't know which it will be till I have sang a verse or 2. Even mouthing the words at that point is painful. 

I have a friend who was a professional singer. Several years ago she contracted a rare illness. If she were to sing today she would find herself in real trouble. She longs to sing.

I suspect that like I learned as a missionary from one of the church leaders "we teach the rule and deal with the exceptions" that failing to sing is an option for many exceptions. Christ looks at us individually - just as he is now doing with missions. So we really should try to be better at singing because there is something in singing that is hard to duplicate, but be understanding of others.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Rain