Announcement Re: Revisions to Hymnbook and Children's Songbook

[jkwilliams]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I never subscribe to crowd-think.

That's the precise problem here, stated perfectly. That is the pattern that creates the problem- accepting "the words in the way millions of Church members have over many generations. " without thought or rationality.

Why would you give up your agency to that way of thinking? I find that horrifying. Deutschland uber alles.

And that is PRECISELY what separates us.

 

I'm with you, Mark (well, aside from the Nazi reference). The strength of the church is in its individual members, not in its conformity. Your post reminded me of a short story about dealing with nonconformity in church.

http://signaturebookslibrary.org/bright-angels-and-familiars-09/

From my understanding, the goal of the gospel is to help everyone to fill the measure of their creation, not to make everyone think and act alike.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

 

I can't stand "It's a Small World", but "There is Sunshine..." is one of my top 10. Wish we sang it more.

I don't think being a dude has much to do with it. I do think many women long to connect on a female basis, but those men who connect with their earthly mother should have an understanding of wanting to connect with a spiritual mother. 

 

I attended church on the North of Grenada on Sunday.  Because the "buses" rarely run on Sunday in the North it would have been expensive to take a taxi to the south where our meetings were held so we had our own sacrament and attended a different church. 

The owner of the apartment we stayed in told us before that the singing was loud. He had a talk with them and they quieted a lot, but outside and half a block away you could still hear them well. (We only attended the first of 4 hours). He said he loved the tunes (Bob Dylan and other artists), but didn't like that they changed the words.  So while he was in his house and on his farm he would sing along with them with the original words.  He was a character.

 

I love to sing. Sometimes when I sing it is wonderful. Sometimes quite painful. I often don't know which it will be till I have sang a verse or 2. Even mouthing the words at that point is painful. 

I have a friend who was a professional singer. Several years ago she contracted a rare illness. If she were to sing today she would find herself in real trouble. She longs to sing.

I suspect that like I learned as a missionary from one of the church leaders "we teach the rule and deal with the exceptions" that failing to sing is an option for many exceptions. Christ looks at us individually - just as he is now doing with missions. So we really should try to be better at singing because there is something in singing that is hard to duplicate, but be understanding of others.

There is a saying going around to the effect that if everyone is special, then no one is special. 

I suppose we could adapt that and wonder if, in a roomful of “exceptions” there are any true exceptions. In other words, if half the people in the room are not singing, it is questionable how many of them have good excuses. 

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm with you, Mark (well, aside from the Nazi reference). The strength of the church is in its individual members, not in its conformity. Your post reminded me of a short story about dealing with nonconformity in church.

http://signaturebookslibrary.org/bright-angels-and-familiars-09/

From my understanding, the goal of the gospel is to help everyone to fill the measure of their creation, not to make everyone think and act alike.

Fill the measure of their creation and be unified in the process. “If he are not one, ye are not mine.”

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Fill the measure of their creation and be unified in the process. “If he are not one, ye are not mine.”

Do you think unity requires thinking and acting exactly the same? 

[Michael Sudworth]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh man.

You vs Paiute? 

Break out the popcorn.

Meh.  Its not complicated.

If you believe the Lord, His atonement covers all sin (with the exception of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).  The suggestion that man can atone for his own sins is simply a falsehood.  

[Michael Sudworth]

12 hours ago, Paiute said:

No it doesn't .

It doesn't cover the sins of those who don't repent of their sins.

Yes it does.  This is Christianity 101 here.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

It may not necessarily be a sign of apathy when someone isn't singing. When I was first married, I noticed my wife never sang the hymns but would sit quietly next to me. I asked her why she didn't sing, and she said, "I have a terrible voice, and I'm tone deaf, so I don't want to embarrass myself." I said I had heard her sing to herself around the house, and she had a perfectly lovely voice and was obviously not tone deaf. She said, "Well, I've always been told I have a lousy voice." I asked her who told her that, and she said, "My mother." She was self-conscious at first, but she started singing in church.

I would think that participation in church meetings is a matter of personal choice, and if singing isn't something that engages you, I don't see why anyone should be bothered. And I say this as someone who misses singing hymns in church. It's the best part of the meetings.

There may be a number of things that don’t “engage” us but we work at them anyway because they are pleasing to our Father. Your wife might never have overcome her discomfort about singing (a form of worship) at church had she not worked at it. 

Suppose one decided he was not going to pray because it didn’t feel “engaging” to him. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Do you think unity requires thinking and acting exactly the same? 

On some matter, and at certain times and places, yes. We don’t get to reject the reality or divinity of Jesus and claim salvation for ourselves, to take one example. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

There may be a number of things that don’t “engage” us but we work at them anyway because they are pleasing to our Father. Your wife might never have overcome her discomfort about singing (a form of worship) at church had she not worked at it. 

Suppose one decided he was not going to pray because it didn’t feel “engaging” to him. 

That's my point. You're judging someone's relationship with God based on some outward markers of conformity. Not everyone communicates with God through formal prayer or singing hymns. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

On some matter, and at certain times and places, yes. We don’t get to reject the reality or divinity of Jesus and claim salvation for ourselves, to take one example. 

That's a far cry from saying everyone needs to be singing in church. Conformity for its own sake has nothing to do with salvation.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That's a far cry from saying everyone needs to be singing in church. Conformity for its own sake has nothing to do with salvation.

Sorry, I don’t have time to continue this conversation. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Sorry, I don’t have time to continue this conversation. 

That's OK. I just think the celestial kingdom is going to be a really boring place if everyone thinks and acts exactly the same way. 

[JulieM]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What passage, specifically, from the Book of Revelation are you referencing?

Here’s what was posted:

“Her [Eliza R. Snow's] words were prefaced by the prophetic passage of vengeance from the Book of Revelation, the same verses used by W.W. Phelps in his Joseph Smith funeral oration two days earlier.”

Now I don’t know if Eliza R. Snow’s words are the poem that eventually became the words of the hymn “Praise to the Man” or a different poem?  I don’t have much time to be online today, but I found the printed version of Phelps’s funeral oration that seems to have also had the passage of vengeance from the Book of Revelation.

Here’s a link to that (with other info about the understandable feelings in Nauvoo at that time):

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2191&context=byusq

Intro quote:

"As the hearse bearing the “bodies” of Joseph and Hyrum Smith (actually sandbagged coffins) passed the Nauvoo meeting ground the afternoon of Saturday, 29 June 1844, William W. Phelps was preaching the funeral sermon. The choice of Phelps as eulogist to the Prophet and the Patriarch is strange, the content of his sermon stranger, the tone of that sermon strangest of all.

Mormon feelings were running high, and vengeance for the murder of the Prophet seemed imminent. Gentiles desperately feared that vengeance— the Carthage mob had retreated in panic from the jail site when they heard the shout, “The Mormons are coming!”

Mormon leaders equally feared the possibility of violence from their people, and with good reason: Atoning for the “blood of the prophets” became a Mormon watchword following the Martyrdom.

Allen Joseph Stout’s journal entry typifies the feeling of the time: 

'I there and then resolved in my mind that I would never let an opportunity slip unimproved of avenging their blood upon the enemies of the church of Jesus Christ. I felt as though I could not live; I knew not how to contain myself, and when I see one of the men who persuaded them to give up to be tried, I feel like cutting their throats. And I hope to live to avenge their blood.'

By the Monday following the Martyrdom, determination to avenge the prophets had reached such a pitch as to prompt a statement signed by W.W. Phelps, Willard Richards, and John Taylor, beseeching the Latter-day Saints in Nauvoo to ‘be peaceable, quiet citizens.’ That Monday morning plea for peaceableness makes all the more remarkable Phelps’s Saturday evening sermon. In the midst of extraordinary precautions by Nauvoo authorities, who were striving to calm the troubled waters of Nauvoo grief, W. W. Phelps seems, in his funeral sermon before ten thousand angry Saints, more intent upon inciting riot than upon preventing it."

Edited June 20, 2018 by JulieM

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There is a saying going around to the effect that if everyone is special, then no one is special. 

Since I don't subscribe to that idea then I don't worry that it is going around.  I have 3 children.  All of them are special to me in their own ways.  I would imagine that is much how Heavenly Father feels.     

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I suppose we could adapt that and wonder if, in a roomful of “exceptions” there are any true exceptions. In other words, if half the people in the room are not singing, it is questionable how many of them have good excuses. 

I'm grateful I don't have to worry about that. Since President Oaks is one of his apostles then I will listen to him, do the best I can, encourage others to sing and then leave it up to the Savior to who else has good excuses.  

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There is a saying going around to the effect that if everyone is special, then no one is special. 

I suppose we could adapt that and wonder if, in a roomful of “exceptions” there are any true exceptions. In other words, if half the people in the room are not singing, it is questionable how many of them have good excuses. 

The assumption seems to be that people who aren't singing are lacking in spirituality or at least motivation to participate in worship. If it's a sign they don't really want to be there, should they just leave, or is there benefit in attending meetings, even if you're not totally engaged?

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

Since I don't subscribe to that idea then I don't worry that it is going around.  I have 3 children.  All of them are special to me in their own ways.  I would imagine that is much how Heavenly Father feels.     

I'm grateful I don't have to worry about that. Since President Oaks is one of his apostles then I will listen to him, do the best I can, encourage others to sing and then leave it up to the Savior to who else has good excuses.  

Maybe they should call someone in each ward to go up and down the aisles, making sure everyone is singing. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I love that hymn for one reason only. When I'd been on my mission for just a few weeks, we had a branch conference, and the choir number was "Nuestra Mente Se Refleja" (Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses). The choir consisted of 4 cholitas who had practiced a capella (the branch did not have a piano). The stake visitors had brought an electric keyboard with them, and these poor ladies didn't know the keyboard player was going to do an intro, so they all came in late on the first note of the intro. And they sang with a distinctive sound, where each note slid into the next one. When they got to "se refleja," it sounded like the notes were going over a waterfall. But they were so sincere and sweet that it just melted my heart. Every time I hear that hymn, I think of that tiny branch with its concrete floor and translucent green plastic roof, and those four little ladies singing their hearts out.

 

Hence the power of music. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hence the power of music. 

Indeed. For a long time after I stopped believing, I still sang in the choir because I love singing. 

[JulieM]

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I love that hymn for one reason only. When I'd been on my mission for just a few weeks, we had a branch conference, and the choir number was "Nuestra Mente Se Refleja" (Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses). The choir consisted of 4 cholitas who had practiced a capella (the branch did not have a piano). The stake visitors had brought an electric keyboard with them, and these poor ladies didn't know the keyboard player was going to do an intro, so they all came in late on the first note of the intro. And they sang with a distinctive sound, where each note slid into the next one. When they got to "se refleja," it sounded like the notes were going over a waterfall. But they were so sincere and sweet that it just melted my heart. Every time I hear that hymn, I think of that tiny branch with its concrete floor and translucent green plastic roof, and those four little ladies singing their hearts out.

 

What an awesome picture!! 😀

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

What an awesome picture!! 😀

That picture makes me really happy. I love Bolivia and Bolivians and hope to get back there someday.

[HappyJackWagon]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That's OK. I just think the celestial kingdom is going to be a really boring place if everyone thinks and acts exactly the same way. 

This is one of my favorite Uchtdorf quotes from his Four Titles talk.

Quote

But while the Atonement is meant to help us all become more like Christ, it is not meant to make us all the same. Sometimes we confuse differences in personality with sin. We can even make the mistake of thinking that because someone is different from us, it must mean they are not pleasing to God. This line of thinking leads some to believe that the Church wants to create every member from a single mold—that each one should look, feel, think, and behave like every other. This would contradict the genius of God, who created every man different from his brother, every son different from his father. Even identical twins are not identical in their personalities and spiritual identities.

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

This is one of my favorite Uchtdorf quotes from his Four Titles talk.

Thank you for posting that, as it's exactly how I feel. I do not understand those who insist that everybody do everything the same. I remember as a missionary getting discouraged that I couldn't make myself into a standard-issue elder. I reread my missionary call letter, and I noticed it was addressed to John Williams, not to Elder Williams. It occurred to me that, if this was a calling from God, I had been called because I had particular characteristics that would serve the people of Bolivia well, or perhaps I had specific things I needed to learn there. But I stopped worrying about being like everybody else. 

[rodheadlee]

On 6/18/2018 at 10:04 AM, smac97 said:

Our ward's bishop just got a notice from the Church that it will be revising the hymnbook and children's songbook.  Here's the relevant bit:

Cool!  My suggestions will be:

1) Add "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing."

2) Add "Amazing Grace."

Any others?

Exciting stuff!

Thanks,

-Smac

Mary Did You Know

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 hours ago, Paiute said:

[The Atonement] doesn't cover the sins of those who don't repent of their sins.

Then it's not really infinite its scope

Bishop Richard C. Edgley in April 2002 General Conference:

Quote

The unfathomable extent of Christ’s mercy and His Atonement are explained by Amulek in the 34th chapter of Alma in the Book of Mormon. Amulek explains that there must be a “great and last sacrifice” (Alma 34:10). And then he clarifies that this cannot be a sacrifice of beast or fowl similar to those already known to man. It had to be a sacrifice of a God—Jesus Christ. For this must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

...

In speaking of Christ’s Atonement, I like the dictionary’s definition of infinite and eternal because I believe it explains exactly what God meant. Infinite: “Having no boundaries or limits.” And the definition of eternal: “Being without beginning or end” (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th ed. [2000], “infinite,” “eternal,” 898, 611).

Elder C. Scott Grow in the April 2011 General Conference:

Quote

The Atonement had to be infinite and eternal―to cover all men throughout all eternity.

Elder Russell M. Nelson in October 1996 General Conference:

Quote

And the mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him. It was infinite beyond any human scale of measurement or mortal comprehension.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks in April 2006 General Conference:

Quote

These teachings that the resurrecting and cleansing power of the Atonement is for all contradict the assertion that the grace of God saves only a chosen few. His grace is for all. These teachings of the Book of Mormon expand our vision and enlarge our understanding of the all-encompassing love of God and the universal effect of His Atonement for all men everywhere.

And from the Church's Gospel Topics entry on the Atonement (emphasis added):

Quote

Jesus's atoning sacrifice took place in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary. In Gethsemane He submitted to the will of the Father and began to take upon Himself the sins of all people.

It would also mean that the Saviour lacks understanding of and empathy for the non-repentant.

Bishop Edgley again:

Quote

That means the Atonement was for you in your suffering. It is personal, as He is intimately acquainted with your trials and sorrows, for He has already suffered them.

As well as the prophet Alma (emphasis added):

Quote

And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

It would also invalidate the words of Christ to the Nephites when He declared that 'I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me'. The Father does not issue commands that cannot be fulfilled. Throughout scripture, all men are commanded to come unto Christ and be redeemed in Him. That some will in the end not take up this offer does not change that the Atonement was and is infinite in its reach and that the offer therefore was and is valid.

Quote

Nor does it cover the sin of murder or the sin against the Holy Ghost.

Regarding murder, please see above. Regarding the 'sin against the Holy Ghost', this is a tautology. Perdition is merely a state of completely rejecting the Saviour's offer of salvation through Him. The Atonement doesn't save those who commit the 'unpardonable sin' not because it can't but because they won't.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

From my understanding, the goal of the gospel is to help everyone to fill the measure of their creation, not to make everyone think and act alike.

This was actually the topic of our FHE lesson this past Monday: how it is righteousness that creates individuality and makes us most fully ourselves whilst sin and rebellion result in an awful sameness.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan