JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: A few loud complainers does not constitute the hymn being divisive. Why is it wrong to research and learn more about this hymn and then discuss it? Is it wrong if some don’t feel all warm and fuzzy when they sing it? Other hymns are being analyzed and some want to discard hymns (that others love). Why is this hymn different? Edited June 19, 2018 by JulieM 1
Stargazer Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, JAHS said: I remember a song in the German LDS hymn book called Mäßigkeit. It was sung to the music of "Tramp Tramp Tramp the boys are Marching". I think the English version was "In our Lovely Deseret". The Austrian and German LDS members loved to sing that one. We don't seem to sing it in church much in the US. Mäßigkeit is not in the current German hymnal, at least not with that title. The tune to it is definitely In Our Lovely Deseret, but the lyrics only bear a slight resemblance. The title of the German hymn title can be translated as "Temperance" in English, or perhaps "Moderation", and sometimes "Abstinence". The first verse starts out like this -- with a very rough translation: Maesigkeit ist schoen und gut Bringt den Wangen rotes Blut Die Enthaeltsamkeit hilft manchen aus der Not! Temperance is fine and good Brings red blood to the cheeks Moderation helps many out of need This doesn't resemble the first verse in English: In our lovely Deseret, Where the Saints of God have met, There’s a multitude of children all around. And the chorus likewise starts out completely different: Blas die Maesigkeit Trompete Bis sie alle Welt erstaunt Blow the Temperance trumpet Until it astonishes the whole world Which doesn't even vaguely resemble: Hark! Hark! Hark! ’tis children’s music— Children’s voices, oh, how sweet, There are few similar themes, since elements of the Word of Wisdom are mentioned in both, but Sis. Snow's original words were honored more by their absence in the German. I may have misremembered some the above, but I don't think I'm far off. We missionaries didn't like the song particularly.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Calm said: It may be more than a few. In my experience offline in my wards, it is about 50-50 among those who have an opinion about the song. It would be nice if some of the survey results were released, but I don't think the survey is for the purpose of supporting arguments, so I doubt it will be. “Among those who have an opinion”? Meaning those who don’t would not mind leaving it in place? I don’t see that as indicating much of a groundswell of opposition or much of a divide. And I’ve never seen any expression of opposition in my own ward. Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Mäßigkeit is not in the current German hymnal, at least not with that title. The tune to it is definitely In Our Lovely Deseret, but the lyrics only bear a slight resemblance. The title of the German hymn title can be translated as "Temperance" in English, or perhaps "Moderation", and sometimes "Abstinence". The first verse starts out like this -- with a very rough translation: Maesigkeit ist schoen und gut Bringt den Wangen rotes Blut Die Enthaeltsamkeit hilft manchen aus der Not! Temperance is fine and good Brings red blood to the cheeks Moderation helps many out of need This doesn't resemble the first verse in English: In our lovely Deseret, Where the Saints of God have met, There’s a multitude of children all around. And the chorus likewise starts out completely different: Blas die Maesigkeit Trompete Bis sie alle Welt erstaunt Blow the Temperance trumpet Until it astonishes the whole world Which doesn't even vaguely resemble: Hark! Hark! Hark! ’tis children’s music— Children’s voices, oh, how sweet, There are few similar themes, since elements of the Word of Wisdom are mentioned in both, but Sis. Snow's original words were honored more by their absence in the German. I may have misremembered some the above, but I don't think I'm far off. We missionaries didn't like the song particularly. I remember an MTC instructor belting out, "In our lovely Deseret, we don't smoke or drink or pet!" In Spanish, the one line that always made me laugh was "hay gran huestes de chiquitos por doquier" (there are great hosts of children everywhere). Edited June 19, 2018 by jkwilliams
JAHS Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Mäßigkeit is not in the current German hymnal, at least not with that title. The tune to it is definitely In Our Lovely Deseret, but the lyrics only bear a slight resemblance. The title of the German hymn title can be translated as "Temperance" in English, or perhaps "Moderation", and sometimes "Abstinence". The first verse starts out like this -- with a very rough translation: Maesigkeit ist schoen und gut Bringt den Wangen rotes Blut Die Enthaeltsamkeit hilft manchen aus der Not! Temperance is fine and good Brings red blood to the cheeks Moderation helps many out of need This doesn't resemble the first verse in English: In our lovely Deseret, Where the Saints of God have met, There’s a multitude of children all around. And the chorus likewise starts out completely different: Blas die Maesigkeit Trompete Bis sie alle Welt erstaunt Blow the Temperance trumpet Until it astonishes the whole world Which doesn't even vaguely resemble: Hark! Hark! Hark! ’tis children’s music— Children’s voices, oh, how sweet, There are few similar themes, since elements of the Word of Wisdom are mentioned in both, but Sis. Snow's original words were honored more by their absence in the German. I may have misremembered some the above, but I don't think I'm far off. We missionaries didn't like the song particularly. I remember singing it a lot in church on my mission in Austria 1972-1973. Found the words to it:https://books.google.com/books?id=ti9OAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=Mäßigkeit+das+ein+jeder+horen+kann&source=bl&ots=RmJmmi5SqA&sig=zd1qFvb3f9y1bIuVSsLpav4K5iY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0ptftyuDbAhVmh1QKHbCZBrkQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Mäßigkeit das ein jeder horen kann&f=false 1
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, Calm said: It may be more than a few. In my experience offline in my wards, it is about 50-50 among those who have an opinion about the song. I’ve only heard it discussed once before this thread. We were planning a family reunion and some of us wanted to sing that hymn (just an opening song at our worship service together). Many of those there objected and said they really hated singing it when it’s sung in sacrament meeting. We ended up choosing another hymn that all agreed on.
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: “Among those who have an opinion”? Meaning those who don’t would not mind leaving it in place? I don’t see that as indicating much of a groundswell of opposition. Those who have an opinion are not those wouldn't care one way or the other if it is removed or kept. IOW, I have my doubts it is as popular as you claim. Rather when people do care about it, they tend to have strong opinions...and in our culture at church, negative opinions are expressed much less often than positive ones, imo. Are you not reading my posts completely? I thought it would be obvious I hold the position that the survey people will have this type of info, don't see it as possible for an individual member not involved in worldwide music leadership to know unless this info has been shared with them. It may be very popular in Utah (impossible for me to tell in my ward as songs are not chosen by popularity and people sing generally at the same level of volume and commitment for majority of the songs), it may or may not be elsewhere in the US and very likely may not be as popular outside the US where there is less history of longterm use because units are newer, percentage of converts higher. 1
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: “Among those who have an opinion”? Meaning those who don’t would not mind leaving it in place? I don’t see that as indicating much of a groundswell of opposition or much of a divide. And I’ve never seen any expression of opposition in my own ward. I’d imagine most would keep any feelings to themselves in a public, church setting. I personally love the hymn and like learning more about the history to some of the phrases I wondered about! 1
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, JulieM said: I’ve only heard it discussed once before this thread. We were planning a family reunion and some of us wanted to sing that hymn (just an opening song at our worship service together). Many of those there objected and said they really hated singing it when it’s sung in sacrament meeting. We ended up choosing another hymn that all agreed on. It hasn't been discussed a lot around me over the years. I remember some of my teen friends not liking it and others saying they really liked the sound of it. It has come up here and there over the decades, though probably less than 20 times.
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I wasn't Mormon then, just an ordinary gentile. But to me the show was a rival perhaps to Lawrence Welk and about just as interesting to a teen. And that pretty much went for Donny and Marie too. Corny old fashioned stuff in my mind at the time. Rolling Stones and Jefferson Airplane vs Donny & Marie? "One pill makes you larger, and the other makes you small- and the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all....." "Just as every cop is a criminal And all the sinners saints As heads is tails just call me Lucifer 'Cause I'm in need of some restraint" Worlds colliding.... But yes I do remember it. A good friend of mine is a member of the King family. He loves his family but says he and his siblings hated being forced to participate in the television specials.
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: A good friend of mine is a member of the King family. He loves his family but says he and his siblings hated being forced to participate in the television specials. I suspect some of the family loved it, others didn't. My sister would have loved the opportunity, they would have had to pry my hands off the door frame to get me to go (similar to my dad more or less grabbing me and pushing me into the back of the pickup when George Washington sales came up and my mom thought I needed more clothes). Bet the parents didn't mind so much though with the extra income. Edited June 19, 2018 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: A good friend of mine is a member of the King family. He loves his family but says he and his siblings hated being forced to participate in the television specials. The specials or the series? It was televised weekly.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, Calm said: It hasn't been discussed a lot around me over the years. I remember some of my teen friends not liking it and others saying they really liked the sound of it. It has come up here and there over the decades, though probably less than 20 times. If it didn’t come up much around you, then there’s not a lot to conclude from your reported 50-50 straw poll.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Calm said: I suspect some of the family loved it, others didn't. My sister would have loved the opportunity, they would have had to pry my hands off the door frame to get me to go (similar to my dad more or less grabbing me and pushing me into the back of the pickup when George Washington sales came up and my mom thought I needed more clothes). Bet the parents didn't mind so much though with the extra income. Some of them (Lex de Azevedo, Tina Cole, the King Cousins) had show business careers beyond the King Family show. But no, it is not surprising some didn’t like it. Not everyone’s cup of Postum. Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) As the martyrdom anniversary date is coming up, I thought I would share this video of “Praise to the Man” by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. By the way, it has 21,000 likes and only 86 thumbs down (I’m thinking there are at least enough ambient anti-Mormons on the internet to account for that). Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The specials or the series? It was televised weekly. I think by the time he was old enough, the series had ended. I could be wrong.
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Some of them (Lex de Azevedo, Tina Cole, the King Cousins) had show business careers beyond the King Family show. But no, it is not surprising some didn’t like it. Not everyone’s cup of Postum. My friend is an attorney, and neither of his siblings is involved in music as a profession. He keeps trying to get me to go back to church.
mnn727 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: It’s not self evident to me why a distinction like that should be drawn, but you are entitled to your opinion. I freely admit, I like the song a lot. but I don't think singing praise to Joseph is appropriate in Sacrament, but to each their own. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I think by the time he was old enough, the series had ended. I could be wrong. No, you’r likely right. I think they did do occasional specials after the series ended.
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: No, you’r likely right. I think they did do occasional specials after the series ended. I don’t remember a weekly series, though I know there was one. It was just a little before my time.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My friend is an attorney, and neither of his siblings is involved in music as a profession. He keeps trying to get me to go back to church. You should listen to him.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: I don’t remember a weekly series, though I know there was one. It was just a little before my time. Don’t rub it in.
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: You should listen to him. I’m in a good place.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: I’m in a good place. If you have a loving friend feeling after you like that you are in a good place.
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: If you have a loving friend feeling after you like that you are in a good place. True. He’s a good man and a great friend.
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