Avatar4321 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: All the hymns in the proposed new hymnbook will be standards across all languages. That's why they're ditching national anthems. I was wondering about that. Will that work? It seems to me that translating every song into every language would be difficult. Am I missing something?
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, SouthernMo said: I voted to have “There is Sunshine in My Soul Today” removed. No false doctrine there, no misplaced worship - just annoyance with the overly chipper lyrics and tune. Mate, you clearly need some more sunshine in your soul! 4
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Avatar4321 said: It seems to me that translating every song into every language would be difficult. It will be difficult. And time-consuming. I love that as a Church, we finally have the resources (human and otherwise) to pull something like this off. I'm also looking forward to an English hymnbook that is filled with hymns translated out of other Saints' languages! 3
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, ALarson said: You can't deny that members took at oath at one time to avenge the blood of the Prophets. One of the lines in "Praise to the Man" was even changed regarding the blood staining Illinois. That's not far from the line that remains in the song and explains at least one possible meaning for why it's in there. I have no issue with it and wonder why you would? Here is what the FairMormon web page says on this subject: Quote Until 1927 the temple endowment very likely contained such an oath. The exact wording is not entirely clear, but it appears that it did not call on the Saints themselves to take vengeance on the United States, but that they would continue to pray that God himself might avenge the blood of the prophets. Although the Oath of Vengeance contains no curses like those in the imprecatory psalms, like the psalmists, the Saints apparently had the wisdom to take directly to God their strong feelings in response to the injustices they had been dealt. By doing so, they turned over to Him the responsibility for both justice and healing. In nearly every anti-Mormon discussion of the temple, critics raise the issue of the "oath of vengeance" that existed during the 19th century and very early 20th century. These critics often misstate the nature of the oath and try to use its presence in the early temple endowment as evidence that the LDS temple ceremonies are ungodly, violent, and immoral. The leaders of the Church have modified the endowment from time to time. Prior to changes made in 1927, there was an oath to pray for the Lord's vengeance on those who murdered the prophets. In their sworn testimonies and temple exposes, apostates gave conflicting accounts on who was to do the actual avenging: the Lord or the Saints themselves.[1] Surveying Mormon history for teachings about of vengeance can add perspective and help evaluate which possibility is more likely. This conflicts with what you say, which is "that members took at oath at one time to avenge the blood of the Prophets." Can you document your claim, i,e. that the members took an oath to carry out the vengeance themselves as opposed to praying that God Himself would avenge the prophets' blood? Even you source to which you linked several posts ago does not support your construction of what the oath contained. Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Avatar4321 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: It will be difficult. And time-consuming. I love that as a Church, we finally have the resources (human and otherwise) to pull something like this off. I'm also looking forward to an English hymnbook that is filled with hymns translated out of other Saints' languages! It’s an exciting time to be alive! 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: I would like to see the unfamiliar. Same! I have frequently experienced 'holy envy' in different churches across different cultures. Quote maybe I'll submit the song I wrote. Do it! 2
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, clarkgoble said: That's what Canadians have been doing for decades. Most wards I was in had Oh Canada glued in. For awhile it was available as an insert.
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, ALarson said: I agree. Eliza R. Snow (prefaced by W.W. Phelps words too) wrote and published this poem in Times and Seasons within days of the Prophets being murdered (it fits with the words of this song too, IMO): With reading more about this, it makes complete sense as to why those words were included in the song now (and also fits with the oath of vengeance, IMO). Fascinating! It all fits and I love reading about events in church history. I’ve always wondered when I sang those words (about the earth atoning for them). Here’s more about the oath of vengeance that was taken: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: It’s an exciting time to be alive! Indeed. I suspect this is part of what Elder Bednar meant in our training meeting three years ago that the Church has to change to meet the needs of its emerging global membership. I'll keep an eye on this forum to see if he was also right that the American Saints were going to find some of these developments not to their liking... 3
Avatar4321 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 How odd that a thread on church music is devolving to blood oaths 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Calm said: For awhile it was available as an insert. The FAQs clearly state that national anthems will be available in digital formats. That means they can be downloaded and inserted as needed. Edited June 19, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: There are a lot of "great songs" in the current hymnal. Maybe we can get some new ones? How about an insert for each hymnal that contains patriotic songs for the country of that language? Pretty ambitious, but doable. Definitely doable these days. And I always thought it was a good idea when I saw it for O Canada (unless my memory is really screwed up, I inserted some into hymnbooks myself as a ward librarian) Quote The FAQs clearly state that national anthems will be available in digital formats. That means that can be downloaded and inserted as needed. Excellent...probably should read the links before commenting, but read a conversation elsewhere and thought they had covered it...apparently not. Edited June 19, 2018 by Calm 1
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 I am curious, how many enjoy "Love at Home"? I don't know why, but even as a kid I hated it.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Calm said: I am curious, how many enjoy "Love at Home"? I don't know why, but even as a kid I hated it. I love it!
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: How odd that a thread on church music is devolving to blood oaths On this board it shouldn't be surprising.
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Hamba Tuhan said: I love it! I know many do...I have a feeling it was sung when I was really anxious at church sometime and so it just sets off a primal distaste that has never gone away. I am talking not liking it at least by 8 years old...
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This conflicts with what you say, which is "that members took at oath at one time to avenge the blood of the Prophets." Can you document your claim, i,e. that the members took an oath to carry out the vengeance themselves as opposed to praying that God Himself would avenge the prophets' blood? I don’t think anyone really thought they’d kill anyone when they took the oath of vengeance. But it does explain the phrase if you read all that’s been posted. Here’s some eyewitness accounts: Heber C. Kimball, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church, described the oath of vengeance in his diary on December 21, 1845.[14] Increase and Maria Van Duesen, a married couple, describe their participation in the oath of vengeance in the Nauvoo Temple on January 29, 1846.[15] Ann Eliza Young, former wife of LDS Church president Brigham Young, described, in her autobiography, her experience taking the oath of vengeance.[16] A woman known only as "Mrs G.H.R." attended an endowment ceremony in September 1879 in Salt Lake City, Utah Territory. She provided the information for a Salt Lake Tribune article detailing the endowment ceremony. In it, she described the oath of vengeance.[17] In 1889, several members of the LDS Church that had emigrated from other countries applied for citizenship to the United States. Their loyalty to the United States was called into question due to rumors of oaths taken during the endowment ceremony. The following testimonies are found in the transcripts of those court proceedings.[18][19] Abraham H. Cannon, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church, wrote in his diary, December 6, 1889, the description his father, apostle George Q. Cannon gave of the oath of vengeance.[20] During the Reed Smoot hearings, December 1904, in sworn testimony in front of the United States Senate, several witnesses described the oath of vengeance.[21][22][23]
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Why would anyone hate the best song in the book? I wish we sang it more It repeats the same two melody lines thrice in succession with no chorus or bridge. I guess some of the music sophisticates on the first incarnation of the hymnbook committee didn't like that. Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, JulieM said: I don’t think anyone really thought they’d kill anyone when they took the oath of vengeance. But it does explain the phrase if you read all that’s been posted. Here’s some eyewitness accounts: Heber C. Kimball, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church, described the oath of vengeance in his diary on December 21, 1845.[14] Increase and Maria Van Duesen, a married couple, describe their participation in the oath of vengeance in the Nauvoo Temple on January 29, 1846.[15] Ann Eliza Young, former wife of LDS Church president Brigham Young, described, in her autobiography, her experience taking the oath of vengeance.[16] A woman known only as "Mrs G.H.R." attended an endowment ceremony in September 1879 in Salt Lake City, Utah Territory. She provided the information for a Salt Lake Tribune article detailing the endowment ceremony. In it, she described the oath of vengeance.[17] In 1889, several members of the LDS Church that had emigrated from other countries applied for citizenship to the United States. Their loyalty to the United States was called into question due to rumors of oaths taken during the endowment ceremony. The following testimonies are found in the transcripts of those court proceedings.[18][19] Abraham H. Cannon, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church, wrote in his diary, December 6, 1889, the description his father, apostle George Q. Cannon gave of the oath of vengeance.[20] During the Reed Smoot hearings, December 1904, in sworn testimony in front of the United States Senate, several witnesses described the oath of vengeance.[21][22][23] Pardon, but this doesn't answer the question. Was the oath that they would carry out the vengeance themselves or that they would pray for God to do it?
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: Pardon, but this doesn't answer the question. Was the oath that they would carry out the vengeance themselves or that they would pray for God to do it? I think the words to the oath are in that link posted. I doubt any member wanted to kill. It does help me understand that phrase (especially when you read ER Snow’s poem and connection to the song).
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: How odd that a thread on church music is devolving to blood oaths 6 minutes ago, Calm said: On this board it shouldn't be surprising. See my new sig line.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, JulieM said: I think the words to the oath are in that link posted. I doubt any member wanted to kill. It does help me understand that phrase (especially when you read ER Snow’s poem and connection to the song). Pardon, but which link? (I've not been following this thread avidly.)
The Nehor Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 13 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: How odd that a thread on church music is devolving to blood oaths I think I prefer the latter. I have no great musical gifts. Occasionally I am inspired by a song but to me the hymns are the boring part of sacrament meeting I try to endure stoically because others are edified by it. I am not proud of it and envy those who get more out of them but what can you do?
Scott Lloyd Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I think I prefer the latter. I have no great musical gifts. Occasionally I am inspired by a song but to me the hymns are the boring part of sacrament meeting I try to endure stoically because others are edified by it. I am not proud of it and envy those who get more out of them but what can you do? Repent.
JulieM Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: How odd that a thread on church music is devolving to blood oaths All it took was for someone to ask a question about the phrase in a hymn! But I find it interesting and love to learn about this. Hey, it’s a part of our history and I understand the anger and why the oath was taken. It’s cool to read the connection and helps me understand why that phrase is in the hymn! Edited June 19, 2018 by JulieM
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