Announcement Re: Revisions to Hymnbook and Children's Songbook

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

I do remember that! we had it right after sac. mtg. didn't last terribly long!

Back in the real old days, when Sunday school was not in the three hour block, there was a time set aside before going to classes specifically to learn new hymns. 

[Anijen]

I bet if they added; Come thou Fount of Every Blessing, the very first day every ward in the US will sing that hymn the very first Sunday the hymnals arrive.

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said:

I respectfully disagree.  I have great love and respect for the Prophet Joseph but this song should not be in the hymnbook.  I stopped singing this hymn and have simply remained silent when this hymn is part of a Church program.  Why?

• We have been taught that singing Hymns is an act of worship of God
• I do not worship any man. Only God. They title of the hymn is "Praise to the Man."  Again, I don't praise any man, only God.  To me this seems consistent with the teachings of the scriptures and propets
• There are no other hymns that sing praises to anyone other than God (exepct, of course, any reference to Heavenly Mother). Not one.
• This hymn contributes to the continued folk beliefs about Jospeh being our judge when we depart this life and reinforces the false deification of the Prophet that occured right after his martyrdom.
• As  @SouthernMo has pointed out, the hymn teaches false doctrine.  

For these reasons I would fully support removing "Praise to the Man" from Church hymnals.  

PS -- "We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet" also promotes a type of worship of Church leaders.  It shoudl be removed as well.  As we all know, these are only men.  No hymn should be sung in praise of a man.

Oh come on. “We thank thee O God for a Prophet” is explicitly thanking God for blessing us with revelation through a prophet.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Oh, I thought Praise to the Man was about Joseph Smith. Am I wrong about that? Or are we really singing praise to Jehovah who communed with Jehovah...? Get's kind of weird, no?

Not sure how that's a distortion. A religious congregation gets together and sings a song of praise during a worship service and you think its a distortion to call it worshipful praise? For what other purpose would a hymn be sung in Sacrament meeting? Usually it's to praise God but we can't really get upset about the occasional worshipful praise of a man, can we?

If I'm not mistaken there are many hymns about "Father". It would seem more appropriate than a hymn about Joseph Smith on Father's day, but I do recognize that was only my experience in my ward and isn't universal.

PS- I'll just add that this is only brought up because you brought it up. I didn't want you to be disappointed.

There are plenty of hymns commemorating and celebrating events in Church history. I put "Praise to the Man" in that class along with "Carry On," "Come, Come Ye Saints," "O Ye Mountains High," "They the Builders of our Nation," etc.  "Honor, praise, and veneration to the founders we revere! List our song of adoration, Blessed, honored Pioneer." I think it's very clear we don't worship Joseph Smith in the same sense as we do God the Father and the Son, even if we sing a song about him in the context of his mission in restoring the Gospel. I also see that it could be misinterpreted by someone not familiar with us.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are plenty of hymns commemorating and celebrating events in Church history. I put "Praise to the Man" in that class along with "Carry On," "Come, Come Ye Saints," "O Ye Mountains High," "They the Builders of our Nation," etc.  "Honor, praise, and veneration to the founders we revere! List our song of adoration, Blessed, honored Pioneer." I think it's very clear we don't worship Joseph Smith in the same sense as we do God the Father and the Son, even if we sing a song about him in the context of his mission in restoring the Gospel. I also see that it could be misinterpreted by someone not familiar with us.

The ones I see complaining about it are very often ones who ought to be familiar with us.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

8 minutes ago, Anijen said:

I bet if they added; Come thou Fount of Every Blessing, the very first day every ward in the US will sing that hymn the very first Sunday the hymnals arrive.

You mean restore it to the hymnal?

We would be raising our Ebenezers and praising the mount all over the world!

I do think it's been done to death, though, even without being in the current hymnbook.

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The ones I see complaining about it are very often ones who ought to be familiar with us.

Hmmmmmmm..... 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The syncopation (which I love) might make it a bit “pop” sounding for a sacrament service. 

And a typical congregation doesn’t do well with syncopation. It took some doing on my part to get my ward choir to feel it. 

Hence the difficulty of pleasing everyone with the hymnal. Good luck to the folks in charge. They have quite a task ahead of them.

[SouthernMo]

29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Oh, that.

No, that doesn't bother me. I just see it as a flowery, poetic way of saying worldly, unrighteous individuals will be held accountable for murdering the prophet of the Restoration. That rings true to me, in fact.

 

Interesting. So if a man born today becomes worldly and unrighteous, in God’s eyes, he will be held accountable for the murder of Joseph Smith?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I praise Joseph Smith regularly on this forum despite his foibles. 

Other than the two I have already promoted on this forum - 

Amazing Grace
Simple Gifts

There are a good number of songs I really like, and which deserve consideration for inclusion. They include:
Blessed Assurance 
To God Be The Glory 
Great Is Thy Faithfulness 
Crown Him Lord of All 
What A Friend We Have In Jesus
Joyful, Joyful
Oh How I Love Jesus
Blest Be The Bind That Ties
I Sing The Mighty Power of God
Morning Has Broken
My Jesus I Love Thee
Be Thou My Vision 
Trust and Obey
To God Be The Glory
 It Is Well With My Soul
He Lives
I love to Tell the Story
Crown Him with Many Crowns
O Worship the King - correct verse 1 to from "the ancient of days" to "the bringer of peace" or similar
Glorious - by Stephanie Mabey - this is a new song sung by David Archuletta, which I adore. Maybe the composer would let the Church use it, but I think it is worth a one time royalty if she insists on it. It is very amenable to a traditional hymn format.

This is great news that the Church is willing to improve our Hymnal. I hope they announce this Church-wide, so that members will have a chance to make suggestions for inclusion. I am sure I will come up with more. 

Are any of these by LDS composers? We have some talented writers. I hope they include more of ours and less of the others, but that's just my preference. Are you a fan of gospel music?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hence the difficulty of pleasing everyone with the hymnal. Good luck to the folks in charge. They have quite a task ahead of them.

The difficulties encountered in producing the current (1985) version are legendary.

People are still peeved that "Come Thou Fount" was left out of it. Thing is, prior to 1985, "Come Thou Fount was rarely sung in our meetings. People didn't know it. Mack Wilberg later popularized it with his arrangement for his BYU groups.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Interesting. So if a man born today becomes worldly and unrighteous, in God’s eyes, he will be held accountable for the murder of Joseph Smith?

I don't interpret that line as literally as you do, obviously. That's why I said "poetic."

[ALarson]

46 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said:

Hi Scott.  I understand your PoV, I simply disagree.

The false doctrine I am referring to is the idea that the earth will atone for the blood of Joseph.  I take this to mean that the earth will pay a price for the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.  I find this idea completely unscriptural and unsupported by any official teachings of the Church.  Thus, false doctrine.

I don't dispute that this view was held by some (many?) early Latter-day Saints after the painful loss of the Prophet, but none of these teachings have been accepted as doctrines of the Church.  

I've never cared for that line and have read it's referring to the oath of vengeance that used to be taken by member (to avenge the blood of the prophets....Joseph and Hyrum...).  That makes sense actually (or at least explains why it's stated that way in this hymn).

Edited June 18, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are any of these by LDS composers? We have some talented writers. I hope they include more of ours and less of the others, but that's just my preference. Are you a fan of gospel music?

At the dawn of the Restoration, it was essential to borrow familiar hymns from Christendom due to the dearth of indigenous music among our own people. We are not faced with that necessity today.

 

[Bernard Gui]

54 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said:

There are no other hymns that sing praises to anyone other than God (exepct, of course, any reference to Heavenly Mother). Not one.

"They the Builders of the Nation," "Carry On," "As Zion's Youth in Latter Days." There's three.

[SouthernMo]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are any of these by LDS composers? We have some talented writers. I hope they include more of ours and less of the others, but that's just my preference.

Why do you prefer LDS composers?  Shouldn’t the hymn’s tune, lyrics, and message be enough to judge it’s value?

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I've never cared for that line and have read it's referring to the oath of vengeance that used to be taken by member (to avenge the blood of the prophets....Joseph and Hyrum...).  That makes sense actually (or at least explains why it's stated that way in this hymn).

I doubt very many people outside of you and your ilk would be apt to interpret it that way.

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Hopefully they dump the Patriotic songs - they have no business being in a WorldWide Church.

They dropped national anthems. I'm mixed on that although I completely understand why they did it. The Hymnal simply has to work in more countries. However singing O Canada or The Star Spangled Banner on Canada Day or the 4th of July was nice. 

I'm curious if they keep Battle Hymn of the Republic. It's pretty violent and was composed for the northern troops in the Civil War. Still it's a great song. The Atlantic podcast did an interesting episode on the history of the song a few months back. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

Why do you prefer LDS composers?  Shouldn’t the hymn’s tune, lyrics, and message be enough to judge it’s value?

One reason is that they would be more apt to be consistent with the nuances of the gospel as restored by Jesus Christ in the latter days.

But I agree that there is a lot of devotional music outside the LDS tradition that is indeed beautiful.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, clarkgoble said:

They dropped national anthems. I'm mixed on that although I completely understand why they did it. The Hymnal simply has to work in more countries. However singing O Canada or The Star Spangled Banner on Canada Day or the 4th of July was nice. 

I'm curious if they keep Battle Hymn of the Republic. It's pretty violent and was composed for the northern troops in the Civil War. Still it's a great song. The Atlantic podcast did an interesting episode on the history of the song a few months back. 

My prediction is that they will drop that one as well, for the reasons already given. Prior to 1985, it was not in the hymnbook.

It will, no doubt, remain the signature song of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, however.

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The difficulties encountered in producing the current (1985) version are legendary.

People are still peeved that "Come Thou Fount" was left out of it. Thing is, prior to 1985, "Come Thou Fount was rarely sung in our meetings. People didn't know it. Mack Wilberg later popularized it with his arrangement for his BYU groups.

I have a friend who served on that committee. Legendary, indeed. Some are peeved about a few that were put in, too. I'll refrain from listing some of them because I'm certain they would be some folks' favorites. Part of the problem is our allegiance to the music we love. It's religious in its fervor. I could suggest several Bluegrass hymns that some would adore and others would hate. Or how about some Bach?

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I doubt very many people outside of you and your ilk would be apt to interpret it that way.

Not true....doing a search quite a bit comes up regarding the connection.  This is interesting:

Quote

  As an interesting tidbit of historical trivia, the line in “Praise to the Man” that currently reads “Long shall his blood which was shed by assassins/plead unto heav’n” originally suggested that the Prophet’s blood would “stain Illinois”; the verbiage was changed to “plead unto heav’n” as part of the good-neighbor policy referenced above.

https://askgramps.org/oath-of-vengeance-gospel-jesus-christ/

I'm not sure why the connection would bother you.....saints did take an oath to avenge the murders of Joseph and Hyrum ("to avenge the blood of the Prophets upon this nation").  It helps make some sense out of that phrase in the hymn.  I'm glad we no longer take that oath, but you can't deny it was once a part of the oaths taken in Nauvoo and a piece of church history.

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

I have a friend who served on that committee. Legendary, indeed. Some are peeved about a few that were put in, too. I'll refrain from listing some of them because I'm certain they would be some folks' favorites. Part of the problem is our allegiance to the music we love. It's religious in its fervor. I could suggest several Bluegrass hymns that some would adore and others would hate. Or how about some Bach?

I heard that the committee members hated "Ye Elders of Israel" but that the high leadership of the Church insisted that it remain.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Not true....doing a search quite a bit comes up regarding the connection.  This is interesting:

https://askgramps.org/oath-of-vengeance-gospel-jesus-christ/

 

As I said, you and your ilk.

 

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

At the dawn of the Restoration, it was essential to borrow familiar hymns from Christendom due to the dearth of indigenous music among our own people. We are not faced with that necessity today.

Indeed! Many of our hymns are borrowed. Our best hymns, however, ....in the sacrament section.... are universally (IIRC) by LDS composers. It's time we break the shackles of 19th century Protestant hymnody and create a great corpus of our own!