Announcement Re: Revisions to Hymnbook and Children's Songbook

[FearlessFixxer]

I wonder if they wonder if they will remove 'O My Father'

[theplains]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

At the dawn of the Restoration, it was essential to borrow familiar hymns from Christendom due to the dearth of indigenous music among our own people. We are not faced with that necessity today.

 

The site says, "As parents sing together with their children in their homes and in our congregations, the doctrines
of the gospel will sink deep into their hearts and they will have increased power to keep on the covenant path as
encouraged by our prophet.”

Does this mean official LDS songs are basically teaching doctrines?

Thanks,
Jim

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Why do you prefer LDS composers?  Shouldn’t the hymn’s tune, lyrics, and message be enough to judge it’s value?

Because I am a Mormon musician and we have been hiding in the shadows too long. Keep some of the Protestant oldies if we have to, but if we're going to revamp the books, let's turn to our faithful members and make them Mormon hymns.

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

I wonder if they wonder if they will remove 'O My Father'

What would that fix?

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Interesting. So if a man born today becomes worldly and unrighteous, in God’s eyes, he will be held accountable for the murder of Joseph Smith?

You probably wouldn't appreciate the previous words, "Long shall his blood which was shed by assassins stain Illinois while the earth lauds his fame." Given the times in which it was written, it has a certain, je ne sais pas, feistiness, don't you think?

 

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I said, you and your ilk.

 

My ilk?  

You mean leaders and members of Bishoprics? 

You can't deny that members took at oath at one time to avenge the blood of the Prophets.  One of the lines in "Praise to the Man" was even changed regarding the blood staining Illinois.  That's not far from the line that remains in the song and explains at least one possible meaning for why it's in there.  I have no issue with it and wonder why you would?

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

They dropped national anthems. I'm mixed on that although I completely understand why they did it. The Hymnal simply has to work in more countries. However singing O Canada or The Star Spangled Banner on Canada Day or the 4th of July was nice. 

I'm curious if they keep Battle Hymn of the Republic. It's pretty violent and was composed for the northern troops in the Civil War. Still it's a great song. The Atlantic podcast did an interesting episode on the history of the song a few months back. 

There are a lot of "great songs" in the current hymnal. Maybe we can get some new ones? How about an insert for each hymnal that contains patriotic songs for the country of that language? Pretty ambitious, but doable.

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

I wonder if they wonder if they will remove 'O My Father'

I hope not....I love that hymn!

[Michael Sudworth]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Jesus said:

"Ye [the apostles] are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:28-30; see also Matthew 19:28.) 

Since Joseph Smith was also called as an apostle and prophet (see D&C 21:1), and is the head prophet of this dispensation, would he not also perhaps play a role in the final judgment the same as Peter, James, John, and others?

Jesus was speaking directly to the contemporary Twelve.  I think it is a stretch to think he was referring to the Prophet.  Otherwise we have a very long line of folks who are going to judge us when that day comes.  Just think of how many Apostles have served since the early days.  More than a few.

If that ends up being the case, entering the Celestial Kingdom will require the worst full-day onsite interview loop in history. 

[clarkgoble]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are a lot of "great songs" in the current hymnal. Maybe we can get some new ones? How about an insert for each hymnal that contains patriotic songs for the country of that language? Pretty ambitious, but doable.

That's what Canadians have been doing for decades. Most wards I was in had Oh Canada glued in.

[Bernard Gui]

29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I heard that the committee members hated "Ye Elders of Israel" but that the high leadership of the Church insisted that it remain.

 

That and others. "Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses" is also "The Mountain Railroad." I can never sing it without reverting to a bluegrass twang. (I performed it with Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge many moons ago.)

International version: (be sure to watch to the end): 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Michael Sudworth]

14 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

I wonder if they wonder if they will remove 'O My Father'

IMO, never.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a day when our acknowledgement of Heavenly Mother is not such a cultural taboo.  Moving forward it will be a distinctive doctrine and, I think, draw in some new members sympathetic to feminism and looking for a a connection to female divinity.  Full discolure:  I don't really know what some people mean when the want this type of connection.  I'm a dude and I"m old.  But I do know that it is something many sisters have said that would  appreciate and enjoy.

If we came out swinging with our belief and adoration of Heavenly Mother, I think you would see a spike in converts.

For too long we've played it safe and presented ourselves as evangelicals and conservative protestants.  More fully embracing Heavenly Mother

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You probably wouldn't appreciate the previous words, "Long shall his blood which was shed by assassins stain Illinois while the earth lauds his fame." Given the times in which it was written, it has a certain, je ne sais pas, feistiness, don't you think?

 

I find it interesting and did not know (until I just did a search using the phrase from the song being discussed) about these original words.  I found that some have linked the phrase to the oath of vengeance once taken by the saints in Nauvoo.  I think it's one possible explanation for those words being a part of that hymn.

I also found (google search  ) that the words "earth will atone" are in "The Expositor" and also in the "The Pentateuch According to the Talmud: Genesis".  I haven't look into those , but that phrase is interesting.

Edited June 18, 2018 by ALarson

[SouthernMo]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You probably wouldn't appreciate the previous words, "Long shall his blood which was shed by assassins stain Illinois while the earth lauds his fame." Given the times in which it was written, it has a certain, je ne sais pas, feistiness, don't you think?

 

Yes - I had read those former lyrics.  Feisty might be the right word.  Angry might be another.

I just want our hymns to be consistent with our beliefs.

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said:

Jesus was speaking directly to the contemporary Twelve.  I think it is a stretch to think he was referring to the Prophet.  Otherwise we have a very long line of folks who are going to judge us when that day comes.  Just think of how many Apostles have served since the early days.  More than a few.

If that ends up being the case, entering the Celestial Kingdom will require the worst full-day onsite interview loop in history. 

I was mostly referring specifically to Joseph Smith since he is the head prophet of our dispensation.  

[SouthernMo]

Side note - I wonder who the poor sap is who was asked to read through all of the suggestions from members around the world and aggregate the opinions shared.

Then, he has to share those findings with general authorities who have opinions of their own, and be careful not to offend them.

Poor guy...

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That and others. "Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses" is also "The Mountain Railroad." I can never sing it without reverting to a bluegrass twang. (I performed it with Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge many moons ago.)

International version: (be sure to watch to the end): 

 

Very nice.

"Lord, Dismiss Us with Thy Blessing" is sung to the tune of "Go Tell Aunt Rhody the Old, Gray Goose Is Dead."

And "Do What Is Right"  is set to "The Old, Oaken Bucket."

 

[RevTestament]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are any of these by LDS composers? We have some talented writers. I hope they include more of ours and less of the others, but that's just my preference. Are you a fan of gospel music?

I am not particularly a fan of gospel music. I do enjoy singing it on Sundays, but rarely think about it the rest of the week. When I run across a new hymn I particularly like, however, I will hum it to myself until the newness wears off. "Glorious" is one such example. I do love classical music, which includes some religious music - Ave Maria, Pie Yesu, Yesu Joy of man's Desiring, etc include my long list of loved classical vocal pieces. Handel's Messiah and many other pieces round out the list. I enjoy spirituals. 

Apparently, Stephanie Mabey, the authour of "Glorious" is LDS. I believe all the other songs I listed are tried and true "Protestant" gospel hymns as are many of the best hymns currently in our hymnal.  I'm all for taking the best and leaving the rest. I believe these are some of the best Gospel Hymns. They were composed once the churches began to have organs. The baroque era saw an explosion in religious music. Before that a lot of music was sung in chant forms. I of course have no problem with LDS composers ending up in our hymnal, and I hope more do. In the early days of the Church, I don't think the Church was big enough to produce a truly good selection of its own gospel hymns. Good composers just don't come along every day. Protestants numbered in the millions and had built up a repertoire over hundreds of years. Many of these hymns such as Amazing Grace have powerful stories behind them too. It was written by the captain of a slave trading ship who repented of his slave trading days.

Now that the Church has millions of members, I hope there are some who compose and submit hymns for consideration, however, I know of very few true LDS composers. Most are more like arrangers - the Piano Guys, Lex de Azevedo, etc. The fact that the Church has not published a new hymnal in over 30 years doesn't really encourage new gospel hymn compositions, so I would be surprised if there are even 20 waiting in the wings, but that is potentially 20 more than we have in the hymnal now. Rather than straining to find LDS composers for our songs, I hope we simply select the best, most touching gospel hymns. Glorious is fresh and different, but easy to learn and sing. 

I generally know when I hear something good. I know even better when I sing it. If I get that "tingly sensation" or become teary, or start humming it, then it's a keeper. I seem to be very good at finding songs which will become popular. I probably missed my calling and should have become a talent scout/agent - LOL. I do love music - most kinds of music - and look forward to the Church improving its repertoire. It is encouraging.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Side note - I wonder who the poor sap is who was asked to read through all of the suggestions from members around the world and aggregate the opinions shared.

Then, he has to share those findings with general authorities who have opinions of their own, and be careful not to offend them.

Poor guy...

As I've already alluded, the process for creating the current hymnal was a years-long nightmare.

[Bernard Gui]

18 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Yes - I had read those former lyrics.  Feisty might be the right word.  Angry might be another.

I just want our hymns to be consistent with our beliefs.

Angry at the time was understandable, IMO.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I am not particularly a fan of gospel music. I do enjoy singing it on Sundays, but rarely think about it the rest of the week. When I run across a new hymn I particularly like, however, I will hum it to myself until the newness wears off. "Glorious" is one such example. I do love classical music, which includes some religious music - Ave Maria, Pie Yesu, Yesu Joy of man's Desiring, etc include my long list of loved classical vocal pieces. Handel's Messiah and many other pieces round out the list. I enjoy spirituals. 

Apparently, Stephanie Mabey, the authour of "Glorious" is LDS. I believe all the other songs I listed are tried and true "Protestant" gospel hymns as are many of the best hymns currently in our hymnal.  I'm all for taking the best and leaving the rest. I believe these are some of the best Gospel Hymns. They were composed once the churches began to have organs. The baroque era saw an explosion in religious music. Before that a lot of music was sung in chant forms. I of course have no problem with LDS composers ending up in our hymnal, and I hope more do. In the early days of the Church, I don't think the Church was big enough to produce a truly good selection of its own gospel hymns. Good composers just don't come along every day. Protestants numbered in the millions and had built up a repertoire over hundreds of years. Many of these hymns such as Amazing Grace have powerful stories behind them too. It was written by the captain of a slave trading ship who repented of his slave trading days.

Now that the Church has millions of members, I hope there are some who compose and submit hymns for consideration, however, I know of very few true LDS composers. Most are more like arrangers - the Piano Guys, Lex de Azevedo, etc. The fact that the Church has not published a new hymnal in over 30 years doesn't really encourage new gospel hymn compositions, so I would be surprised if there are even 20 waiting in the wings, but that is potentially 20 more than we have in the hymnal now. Rather than straining to find LDS composers for our songs, I hope we simply select the best, most touching gospel hymns. Glorious is fresh and different, but easy to learn and sing. 

I generally know when I hear something good. I know even better when I sing it. If I get that "tingly sensation" or become teary, or start humming it, then it's a keeper. I seem to be very good at finding songs which will become popular. I probably missed my calling and should have become a talent scout/agent - LOL. I do love music - most kinds of music - and look forward to the Church improving its repertoire. It is encouraging.

The problem with pop songs like Glorious is that, regardless of the sentiment or message, styles and performance practices change rapidly in the pop world and don't fit well into a hymn book that will have to endure for decades. David Archuleta just performed that with the Ensign Symphony and Chorus in Seattle. I enjoyed playing with him, but in the end, it, like much of our LDS pop faith music, is much a piece with the rest of current Christian pop. Anyone remember Marvin Payne?

It is true that most of what we hear "officially" from the Church in the way of music (for example General Conference and CES) is simply arrangements of previous music. I hope competent LDS composers are given a real opportunity to write music acceptable to wide dissemination. For a long time, musicians in the Church have been under kind of a unspoken cloud of suspicion that given the reins, they would run away with the wagon. There's some basis for that fear. This is not unique to our time or our Church. Musicians can tend to run amok.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Angry at the time was understandable, IMO.

I agree.

Eliza R. Snow (prefaced by W.W. Phelps words too) wrote and published this poem in Times and Seasons within days of the Prophets being murdered (it fits with the words of this song too, IMO):

Quote

 

For never, since the Son of God was slain,

Has blood so noble, flow’d from human vein

As that which now on God for vengeance calls

From “freedom’s ground”—from Carthage’s prison walls.

 

Oh! Illinois! thy soil has drank the blood

Of Prophets martyr’d for the truth of God.

Once lov’d America! what can atone

For the pure blood of innocence, thou’st sown?

Were all thy streams in teary torrents shed

To mourn the fate of those illustrious dead:

How vain the tribute, for the noblest worth

That grac’d thy surface, O degraded Earth!

 

Quote

 

Her [Eliza R. Snow's] words were prefaced by the prophetic passage of vengeance from the Book of Revelation, the same verses used by W.W. Phelps in his Joseph Smith funeral oration two days earlier.  2

Footnote 2:

The August 14 1844  issue of Times and Seasons included a hymn by W. W. Phelps. '"Praise to the Man." dedicated to the memory of Joseph Smith, a hymn with clear reference to blood atonement, which continues to be sung by Latter-Day Saints congregations to this day.

 

With reading more about this, it makes complete sense as to why those words were included in the song now (and also fits with the oath of vengeance, IMO).

Edited June 18, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

Way behind, lol....edited to be ignored.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Calm

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I heard that the committee members hated "Ye Elders of Israel" but that the high leadership of the Church insisted that it remain.

 

Why would anyone hate the best song in the book? I wish we sang it more

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Considering that the website encourages submissions from all cultures and musical styles, including those not traditionally represented in the Church’s music, I suspect we should be preparing ourselves for the unfamiliar. I wonder if Sis Knight might be on the committee... 😎

I would like to see the unfamiliar.

maybe I'll submit the song I wrote.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Avatar4321