ksfisher Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I already entered my thoughts on the survey, and suggested “Mary, Did you Know?” I love that song, but I think it will be some time before anyone at the Church Office Building seriously considers it. Too modern? Our ward choir has performed it several times as part of our Christmas program, and I like it in that setting. But I'm not sure that it would sound as good as a hymn sung by the congregation.
HappyJackWagon Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: If God’s name is “Man of Holiness” then all our hymns worship men. We let slip in praise of women in “O My Father”. Though it you also accept that God is a term referring to an exalted couple or plural marriage group then all our hymns are in praise of married human couples. Another way to ostracize us second class citizens. I never realized how devious the Church music people are in promoting their covert pro-marriage agenda....... Oh, I thought Praise to the Man was about Joseph Smith. Am I wrong about that? Or are we really singing praise to Jehovah who communed with Jehovah...? Get's kind of weird, no? Quote “Worshipful” praise to a man? Distort much? And who said it’s a Father’s Day hymn. For that matter, what Father’s Day hymns are there? None that I know of. Not sure how that's a distortion. A religious congregation gets together and sings a song of praise during a worship service and you think its a distortion to call it worshipful praise? For what other purpose would a hymn be sung in Sacrament meeting? Usually it's to praise God but we can't really get upset about the occasional worshipful praise of a man, can we? If I'm not mistaken there are many hymns about "Father". It would seem more appropriate than a hymn about Joseph Smith on Father's day, but I do recognize that was only my experience in my ward and isn't universal. PS- I'll just add that this is only brought up because you brought it up. I didn't want you to be disappointed. 1
ksfisher Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 Just now, HappyJackWagon said: Oh, I thought Praise to the Man was about Joseph Smith. Am I wrong about that? Or are we really singing praise to Jehovah who communed with Jehovah...? Get's kind of weird, no? Not sure how that's a distortion. A religious congregation gets together and sings a song of praise during a worship service and you think its a distortion to call it worshipful praise? For what other purpose would a hymn be sung in Sacrament meeting? Usually it's to praise God but we can't really get upset about the occasional worshipful praise of a man, can we? If I'm not mistaken there are many hymns about "Father". It would seem more appropriate than a hymn about Joseph Smith on Father's day, but I do recognize that was only my experience in my ward and isn't universal. PS- I'll just add that this is only brought up because you brought it up. I didn't want you to be disappointed. In my mind there is a real distinction between praising a man, in this case Joseph Smith, and worshiping the Savior. 4
Duncan Posted June 18, 2018 Author Posted June 18, 2018 32 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Isn't that timely!! Hope it's great. I wonder what mechanism will be put in place to learn any new hymns. Remember the old Sunday school practice hymn? I do remember that! we had it right after sac. mtg. didn't last terribly long!
Avatar4321 Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 I’d like to see more of the hymns of the restoration translated into Spanish
HappyJackWagon Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 39 minutes ago, ksfisher said: In my mind there is a real distinction between praising a man, in this case Joseph Smith, and worshiping the Savior. I agree. There should be a distinction. We should sing praises to God and Jesus, not to man. In our most sacred weekly meeting I'm not sure why we would be focused on a man at all. It's a service dedicated to worshipping God, so why would a man be praised. It's easy to see why some make the mistake of thinking the church worship's Joseph Smith. That would be an easy mistake to make. It's really quite a remarkable thing if you think about it. We gather to worship God and then sing hymns praising Joseph Smith. It's a little weird. I wonder if the Catholics sing songs to praise the Pope, or the Methodists sing to praise John Wesley. I kind of doubt it. 2
RevTestament Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Standard complaining and faultfinding about “Praise to the Man” coming in three ... two ... one .... I praise Joseph Smith regularly on this forum despite his foibles. Other than the two I have already promoted on this forum - Amazing Grace Simple Gifts There are a good number of songs I really like, and which deserve consideration for inclusion. They include: Blessed Assurance To God Be The Glory Great Is Thy Faithfulness Crown Him Lord of All What A Friend We Have In Jesus Joyful, Joyful Oh How I Love Jesus Blest Be The Bind That Ties I Sing The Mighty Power of God Morning Has Broken My Jesus I Love Thee Be Thou My Vision Trust and Obey To God Be The Glory It Is Well With My Soul He Lives I love to Tell the Story Crown Him with Many Crowns O Worship the King - correct verse 1 to from "the ancient of days" to "the bringer of peace" or similar Glorious - by Stephanie Mabey - this is a new song sung by David Archuletta, which I adore. Maybe the composer would let the Church use it, but I think it is worth a one time royalty if she insists on it. It is very amenable to a traditional hymn format. This is great news that the Church is willing to improve our Hymnal. I hope they announce this Church-wide, so that members will have a chance to make suggestions for inclusion. I am sure I will come up with more.
RevTestament Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 26 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: I agree. There should be a distinction. We should sing praises to God and Jesus, not to man. In our most sacred weekly meeting I'm not sure why we would be focused on a man at all. It's a service dedicated to worshipping God, so why would a man be praised. It's easy to see why some make the mistake of thinking the church worship's Joseph Smith. That would be an easy mistake to make. It's really quite a remarkable thing if you think about it. We gather to worship God and then sing hymns praising Joseph Smith. It's a little weird. I wonder if the Catholics sing songs to praise the Pope, or the Methodists sing to praise John Wesley. I kind of doubt it. Lest we forget, Yeshua is a man. I worship Him, but do not worship Joseph Smith. Men do things worthy of praise. I have no problem if Adam and Abraham are in songs either. The main problem I have with Praise to the Man is that it is wrong. The words should be changed to read "blest to open the last restoration" in verse one. However, I have no problem in praising Joseph Smith for his accomplishments. He deserves recognition for restoring the gospel.
JAHS Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Standard complaining and faultfinding about “Praise to the Man” coming in three ... two ... one .... I think mostly outsiders and exMormons do most of the complaining. It should stay in. It has one of the few more lively and fun melodies to sing that are in the book. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 49 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: I agree. There should be a distinction. We should sing praises to God and Jesus, not to man. In our most sacred weekly meeting I'm not sure why we would be focused on a man at all. It's a service dedicated to worshipping God, so why would a man be praised. It's easy to see why some make the mistake of thinking the church worship's Joseph Smith. That would be an easy mistake to make. It's really quite a remarkable thing if you think about it. We gather to worship God and then sing hymns praising Joseph Smith. It's a little weird. I wonder if the Catholics sing songs to praise the Pope, or the Methodists sing to praise John Wesley. I kind of doubt it. You should pay attention to the words. They are about Joseph Smith’s communion with Jehovah by which Jehovah accomplished His purposes in the latter days for the salvation and blessing of many, many generations of people. It’s not about worshiping Joseph, and it definitely is not about placing a man above Christ. For any knowledgeable and professing Church member who accepts the prophethood of Joseph Smith, there is no good reason to object to this hymn.
JAHS Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 3 hours ago, mnn727 said: Hopefully they dump the Patriotic songs - they have no business being in a WorldWide Church. According to a new release, “National anthems will not be included in the printed hymnbooks.”
Scott Lloyd Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: Our ward choir has performed it several times as part of our Christmas program, and I like it in that setting. But I'm not sure that it would sound as good as a hymn sung by the congregation. The syncopation (which I love) might make it a bit “pop” sounding for a sacrament service. And a typical congregation doesn’t do well with syncopation. It took some doing on my part to get my ward choir to feel it. Edited June 18, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Standard complaining and faultfinding about “Praise to the Man” coming in three ... two ... one .... Heh. It didn’t take long for <that> prediction to be fulfilled. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 40 minutes ago, JAHS said: I think mostly outsiders and exMormons do most of the complaining. It should stay in. It has one of the few more lively and fun melodies to sing that are in the book. And, alas, professed members who disparage the Prophet Joseph Smith.
SouthernMo Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 Regarding songs about Joseph Smith: Not Joseph Smith, nor any other man atoned for my sins. Jesus Christ atoned for my sins. There are plenty of other great men out there whom I can honor and admire. But, I only worship one man: Jesus Christ. I come to church to worship Christ, not to honor good men. Additionally, I am not sure that “earth” will atone for Joseph Smith’s blood/death (Praise to the Man lyrics). I believe that it is Jesus Christ who will atone for those sins. If we treat our hymns as scripture, they should be true. Also - @Scott Lloyd, how did you know someone would bring it up? A great prediction! I smiled when I first read it.
Michael Sudworth Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It’s not about worshiping Joseph, and it definitely is not about placing a man above Christ. For any knowledgeable and professing Church member who accepts the prophethood of Joseph Smith, there is no good reason to object to this hymn. I respectfully disagree. I have great love and respect for the Prophet Joseph but this song should not be in the hymnbook. I stopped singing this hymn and have simply remained silent when this hymn is part of a Church program. Why? We have been taught that singing Hymns is an act of worship of God I do not worship any man. Only God. They title of the hymn is "Praise to the Man." Again, I don't praise any man, only God. To me this seems consistent with the teachings of the scriptures and propets There are no other hymns that sing praises to anyone other than God (exepct, of course, any reference to Heavenly Mother). Not one. This hymn contributes to the continued folk beliefs about Jospeh being our judge when we depart this life and reinforces the false deification of the Prophet that occured right after his martyrdom. As @SouthernMo has pointed out, the hymn teaches false doctrine. For these reasons I would fully support removing "Praise to the Man" from Church hymnals. PS -- "We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet" also promotes a type of worship of Church leaders. It shoudl be removed as well. As we all know, these are only men. No hymn should be sung in praise of a man. Edited June 18, 2018 by Michael Sudworth 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Regarding songs about Joseph Smith: Not Joseph Smith, nor any other man atoned for my sins. Jesus Christ atoned for my sins. There are plenty of other great men out there whom I can honor and admire. But, I only worship one man: Jesus Christ. I come to church to worship Christ, not to honor good men. Additionally, I am not sure that “earth” will atone for Joseph Smith’s blood/death (Praise to the Man lyrics). I believe that it is Jesus Christ who will atone for those sins. If we treat our hymns as scripture, they should be true. Also - @Scott Lloyd, how did you know someone would bring it up? A great prediction! I smiled when I first read it. Yes. I worship God and His Son. I will also praise them I don’t worship anyone else. But I praise any number of individuals, including my wife, my children, my high school English teacher for her influence in my life, favorite authors and composers, the list goes on. To be fair, I must acknowledge it was I who brought it up. But it certainly did stir the anthill, right? When you’ve been on these boards as long as I have some things are as predictable as night following day.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said: I respectfully disagree. I have great love and respect for the Prophet Joseph but this song should not be in the hymnbook. I stopped singing this hymn and have simply remained silent when this hymn is part of a Church program. Why? We have been taught that singing Hymns is an act of worship of God I do not worship any man. Only God. They title of the hymn is "Praise to the Man." Again, I don't praise any man, only God. To me this seems consistent with the teachings of the scriptures and propets There are no other hymns that sing praises to anyone other than God (exepct, of course, any reference to Heavenly Mother). Not one. This hymn contributes to the continued folk beliefs about Jospeh being our judge when we depart this life and reinforces the false deification of the Prophet that occured right after his martyrdom. As @SouthernMo has pointed out, the hymn teaches false doctrine. For these reasons I would fully support removing "Praise to the Man" from Church hymnals. Please see my last post which I believe addresses some if not all of these points. And I didn’t read SouthernMo as saying the hymn teaches false doctrine. Maybe I misunderstood, but at any rate, I categorically reject that claim.
Michael Sudworth Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: Please see my last post which I believe addresses some if not all of these points. And I didn’t read SouthernMo as saying the hymn teaches false doctrine. Maybe I misunderstood, but at any rate, I categorically reject that claim. Hi Scott. I understand your PoV, I simply disagree. The false doctrine I am referring to is the idea that the earth will atone for the blood of Joseph. I take this to mean that the earth will pay a price for the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. I find this idea completely unscriptural and unsupported by any official teachings of the Church. Thus, false doctrine. I don't dispute that this view was held by some (many?) early Latter-day Saints after the painful loss of the Prophet, but none of these teachings have been accepted as doctrines of the Church. 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) Considering that the website encourages submissions from all cultures and musical styles, including those not traditionally represented in the Church’s music, I suspect we should be preparing ourselves for the unfamiliar. I wonder if Sis Knight might be on the committee? Maybe Bro Boye or Sis Bonner? Edited June 19, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 2
SouthernMo Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 I voted to have “There is Sunshine in My Soul Today” removed. No false doctrine there, no misplaced worship - just annoyance with the overly chipper lyrics and tune. Its the LDS version of “Its a Small World.”
JAHS Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said: This hymn contributes to the continued folk beliefs about Jospeh being our judge when we depart this life Jesus said: "Ye [the apostles] are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:28-30; see also Matthew 19:28.) Since Joseph Smith was also called as an apostle and prophet (see D&C 21:1), and is the head prophet of this dispensation, would he not also perhaps play a role in the final judgment the same as Peter, James, John, and others? 2
SouthernMo Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: And I didn’t read SouthernMo as saying the hymn teaches false doctrine. Maybe I misunderstood, but at any rate, I categorically reject that claim. I do think that the idea that the earth (whatever that means) having to atone for the sins of the mob who killed our great prophet is false doctrine. Is there a perspective I’m missing?
Scott Lloyd Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said: Hi Scott. I understand your PoV, I simply disagree. The false doctrine I am referring to is the idea that the earth will atone for the blood of Joseph. I take this to mean that the earth will pay a price for the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. I find this idea completely unscriptural and unsupported by any official teachings of the Church. Thus, false doctrine. I don't dispute that this view was held by some (many?) early Latter-day Saints after the painful loss of the Prophet, but none of these teachings have been accepted as doctrines of the Church. 4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I do think that the idea that the earth (whatever that means) having to atone for the sins of the mob who killed our great prophet is false doctrine. Is there a perspective I’m missing? Oh, that. No, that doesn't bother me. I just see it as a flowery, poetic way of saying worldly, unrighteous individuals will be held accountable for murdering the prophet of the Restoration. That rings true to me, in fact.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 18, 2018 Posted June 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: I’d like to see more of the hymns of the restoration translated into Spanish All the hymns in the proposed new hymnbook will be standards across all languages. That's why they're ditching national anthems.
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