Hearing from women who have been abused

[CV75]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Men generally do not find female sexual aggressiveness to be threatening. I have bee groped, pinched, etc. quite a few times in my life (often on my mission) and I never felt threatened. Usually it was just a funny story to tell the other companionship in the house when we got home. A few times it felt skeevy and was weird but not really threatening. Usually it was just flattering. I think this is the norm. Again the Onion describes the situation best:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.theonion.com/amp/1012

Now there are cases that are actually abusive or scary (stalking for example) but they are rare.

I guess everybody's different, and context is everything. I was surprised with the rage I felt when in college a female acquaintance (I am male) lustily grabbed my butt in a group setting outside a campus cafeteria, and even more surprised that (and with how well) I dressed her down for it (I was unusually articulate!).

I can't imagine what it is like living in a culture where such treatment is commonplace and not being able to fight back, either physically or verbally.

[Calm]

Off topic

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

What you guys are doing by bravely speaking out and sharing your experiences will likely have the most impact in the long run on men.  The more you speak out, the more men will hear you and understand your perspective and the impact of their actions.  Change will slowly come about with a persistent and united voice and message from women. Your voices and your stories are your greatest tools for change in society on this matter. 

Women have been silenced out of fear, threat, intimidation, dismissiveness, false blame, not knowing what to say or do, or who to tell, etc. etc. etc., but all that is slowly starting to change because women are taking the initiative.  When women take the initiative in this matter, change will happen.   To place the burden on men to change first before women feel safe to speak up is simply placing the power in men's hands - in other words, nothing will change, or it will be too slow!

While men are fully culpable for their actions, and while women are not responsible for men's behavior, doing and saying nothing teaches men that they can get away with it. By not making a big deal out of it, teaches men that it is not a big deal to you.  By doing and saying nothing, "your inaction is speaking for you" (as Dr. Phil would say).  I agree that men should just get it, but many obviously don't!

I am proud of all of you for speaking up!  

 

 

Thanks Pogi! You sound a lot like this guy: http://www.upworthy.com/a-powerful-poignant-post-about-mens-role-in-the-metoo-movement-went-viral?c=ufb1

 

And another story from my life that has come to mind. When I was around 6 or 7 a neighbor teenage boy exposed himself down in his family room, I was playing with his younger sibling. I didn't think much about it since I was so young, but many years later he apologised to me and my sisters for all he had done to us at a mutual neighbor's funeral! He felt so horrible for what he'd done, he was also a peeping tom. We were shocked that he apologised to us at the luncheon following the funeral right out in the open at our table. That took guts and I felt bad for him. 

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am sorry for being a handicapped single person who is unqualified to know anything about gender relations. Please bestow more of your hidden wisdom o grand master of the secret mysteries of marriage I may never be judged worthy to be initiated into.

Who said you don't know anything about gender relations? Just because I have experienced more than you doesn't make you unqualified. But I should apologize for taking umbrage at your accusation of condescension. I am sure you meant well.

Hmmm, I do like the title Grand Master of the Secret Mysteries of Marriage, however.  

[Calm]

Please move all male abuse posts to new thread so we can give each topic it's appropriate treatment.  This one is primarily people sharing their personal stories.  Thank you, 

Me the Opening Poster who helped take it off track

[Rain]

It's surprising what the sharing of stories is doing for me.  I don't have a very good memory.  People will often ask this or that and I can't tell them because I don't remember that much.  This has brought an experience to mind that I just got an understanding of that happened about 40 years ago.  I won't be sharing it. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Rain

[Calm]

Yeah, stuff is popping up for me that I hadn't thought of in years.  It never seemed that much taken one at a time while I was going through it, but if my daughter came home and and told me this stuff, I would be very upset for her.

[pogi]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Or they don't recognize what sexual harassment actually is.  I highly doubt any of the guys who proposed to me or gave me a gift before we knew each other except as fellow students who happened to be in the same room would have considered it harassment even though it was out of the blue with absolutely no reason besides me treating them as human beings for them to say such a thing to me.

That is very likely.  Not all women, let alone men, will agree on which behaviors are considered sexual harassment and which aren't.  It is only considered sexual harassment if it is "unwelcome".  What makes it welcome can often depend on which guy a woman is being approached by quite honestly, and her mood that day.  Not every woman is unwelcome to sexual solicitation from strangers, for example.  Be they in the form of a gift, an invitation, etc. etc. etc. 

Quote

Unwelcome Behavior is the critical word. Unwelcome does not mean "involuntary." A victim may consent or agree to certain conduct and actively participate in it even though it is offensive and objectionable. Therefore, sexual conduct is unwelcome whenever the person subjected to it considers it unwelcome. Whether the person in fact welcomed a request for a date, sex-oriented comment, or joke depends on all the circumstances. Source: Preventing Sexual Harassment (BNA Communications, Inc.) SDC IP .73 1992 manual

My version of sexual harassment would be this:  If a man persists after a woman has expressed that it is unwelcome and unwanted, only then should it be considered "harassment" (i.e. "aggressive pressure or intimidation").

Think about it, doesn't it seem kind of much to include every sexual advancement that is "unwelcome" under the "harassment" umbrella?  How can the man or the woman clearly make their intentions known that they are interested in potentially pursuing a sexual relationship without being at risk of being accused of sexual harassment if the other party ends up not being interested in that way?

The person who makes the first move will always be at risk of being accused of sexual harassment.  Simply asking "do you want to have sex with me" or "can I touch your breasts" while they are making out could be sexual harassment.  That is why I think it should only be considered harassment for persistent or repeated attempts after it is made known that the behavior or invitation is not wanted or welcome.  

It seems like the general consensus is that the man should not sexually pursue the woman until the woman's wishes are known.  But how can the woman unambiguously make her wishes known without being at risk of potentially sexually harassing the man?  It is a game of hints, clues, body language, signs, etc.  It is social uncertainty.  Some are better at reading it and giving the signs than others.  It is not always obvious.    

I recognize that this might not be a popular post, but I do think that this guy makes a lot of sense to me:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sexual-intelligence/201206/sexual-harassment-or-unwanted-sexual-attention

[Calm]

"  If a man persists after a woman has expressed that it is unwelcome and unwanted, only then should it be considered "harassment" (i.e. "aggressive pressure or intimidation")."

I disagree that this can be globally applied.  I think there are red flag behaviours that should never be done unless the person knows one well.  For example, touching a woman from behind or touching her at all.  Talking to a woman in an isolated place without her seeing you first, except if you feel there is an immediate need for her to know you are there (say she is stopped on the side of a lonely road at night and you want to help, you can go up to her car and stay over an arm's distance and ask her if she is okay and if you can call the police for her or if she would like you to wait in your car until someone shows up).  If she is going to step in a puddle of milk or something, a light tap on the shoulder is one thing, but just to draw attention to yourself...no touching.  If you want to talk to a strange woman, see if she is willing to make eye contact, if she does and keeps looking and smiles, then open a conversation.  

It is not okay to keep touching a woman on the shoulder or anywhere else until she says "stop".  

If a woman says nothing, that is not automatically permission to continue,  she may be too frightened to speak.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Calm

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

That is very likely.  Not all women, let alone men, will agree on which behaviors are considered sexual harassment and which aren't.  It is only considered sexual harassment if it is "unwelcome".  What makes it welcome can often depend on which guy a woman is being approached by quite honestly, and her mood that day.  Not every woman is unwelcome to sexual solicitation from strangers, for example.  Be they in the form of a gift, an invitation, etc. etc. etc. 

My version of sexual harassment would be this:  If a man persists after a woman has expressed that it is unwelcome and unwanted, only then should it be considered "harassment" (i.e. "aggressive pressure or intimidation").

Think about it, doesn't it seem kind of much to include every sexual advancement that is "unwelcome" under the "harassment" umbrella?  How can the man or the woman clearly make their intentions known that they are interested in potentially pursuing a sexual relationship without being at risk of being accused of sexual harassment if the other party ends up not being interested in that way?

The person who makes the first move will always be at risk of being accused of sexual harassment.  Simply asking "do you want to have sex with me" or "can I touch your breasts" while they are making out could be sexual harassment.  That is why I think it should only be considered harassment for persistent or repeated attempts after it is made known that the behavior or invitation is not wanted or welcome.  

It seems like the general consensus is that the man should not sexually pursue the woman until the woman's wishes are known.  But how can the woman unambiguously make her wishes known without being at risk of potentially sexually harassing the man?  It is a game of hints, clues, body language, signs, etc.  It is social uncertainty.  Some are better at reading it and giving the signs than others.  It is not always obvious.    

I recognize that this might not be a popular post, but I do think that this guy makes a lot of sense to me:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sexual-intelligence/201206/sexual-harassment-or-unwanted-sexual-attention

Here's my suggestion - Men don't get to tell women how women should define harassment.

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Here's my suggestion - Men don't get to tell women how women should define harassment.

And if women were a hive mind I would let them spell that out but because harassment has legal and employment implications a set of standards is needed that is clear enough that common sense plus that standard can allow people arbitrating harassment to make reasonable decisions as to what does and does not constitute harassment.

I know of crazies of both genders that should definitely not be allowed to define what constitutes harassment. A guy who beat a gay guy for privately asking him out in a non-confrontational and non-coercive way, a paranoid girl who views the most innocuous attempts at conversation as sexual advances, and more.

I do agree with the sentiment behind the comment though because some guys think they get to set the rules....particularly as to what women owe them or that they can force intimate actions or even conversations in the hopes of winning a girl over and that it is her responsibility to stop him.

Of course it is complicated by social cues and all kinds of miscommunications and misreadings. On a completely related note this is one of the reasons I am sick of dating.

Edited October 19, 2017 by The Nehor

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

And if women were a hive mind I would let them spell that out but because harassment has legal and employment implications a set of standards is needed that is clear enough that common sense plus that standard can allow people arbitrating harassment to make reasonable decisions as to what does and does not constitute harassment.

I know of crazies of both genders that should definitely not be allowed to define what constitutes harassment. A guy who beat a gay guy for privately asking him out in a non-confrontational and non-coercive way, a paranoid girl who views the most innocuous attempts at conversation as sexual advances, and more.

I do agree with the sentiment behind the comment though because some guys think they get to set the rules....particularly as to what women owe them or that they can force intimate actions or even conversations in the hopes of winning a girl over and that it is her responsibility to stop him.

Of course it is complicated by social cues and all kinds of miscommunications and misreadings. On a completely related note this is one of the reasons I am sick of dating.

I agree with your general observation about the need for consensus in legal and employment settings, but I think you understood the purpose of my statement; namely, to drive home the point that we (as men) don't get to tell women how to feel about the things men may do that make them uncomfortable, fearful, etc.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I agree with your general observation about the need for consensus in legal and employment settings, but I think you understood the purpose of my statement; namely, to drive home the point that we (as men) don't get to tell women how to feel about the things men may do that make them uncomfortable, fearful, etc.

Definitely.

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Oh I agree in general. In practice though that's harder said than done. I got married relatively late in my 30's and the difference once I hit my late 20's was staggering. I literally didn't encounter many women at all outside of church. And if you didn't like the women in your ward (say because you're in your late 20's and most of them are 18-23) that pretty well means no social life. There's dating apps of course, but while I only tried them when things were getting started in around 2000, by and large they really sucked. Plus honestly it's the same situation just giving a bit more control to women by forcing them to put themselves "out there" on the dating app. Maybe they're better now but I don't hear a lot of positive things about them.

By and large my choice was to just let women make the first move. They start flirting and I'd flirt back. But being realistic, especially for people in many locations, that's pretty well damning people to a non-existing social life. It also requires you to pretty well be in top physical shape so some women will hit on you in gas stations, gymns and the like. If you're not then you'll be ignored. (Again that's the reality) Don't get me wrong I completely get what you're saying. I just think we ought realize the implications of that especially to the typical average guy. Most women don't make first moves due to how we've all been socialized. Many men don't like women making the first move (again because of socialization). And women who are confident enough to even put themselves out of their comfort zone to make the first move will get to face the same things men face with rejection making it less likely they'll do it again.

As I said, dating sucks at the best of times. Worse is that often by the time you start catching a clue about socially what's going on you've graduated and just aren't meeting people anymore. There's of course work, but hopefully it goes without saying that the dangers there are magnitudes higher.

 

 

 

I think its pure luck that I met my wife. Or that she gave me the time of day.

I sometimes think arranged marriages are the way to go. Almost

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Avatar4321 said:

I think its pure luck that I met my wife. Or that she gave me the time of day.

I sometimes think arranged marriages are the way to go. Almost

I think I crossed that line in favor of arranged marriages about a year ago.

Edited October 19, 2017 by The Nehor

[BlueDreams]

5 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Couple of comments

How much do you think the pornography plague effects this problem in our culture?

I don't think this is about blaming all men as much as it is about making a widespread problem aware to public. Don't take it personally. Especially if you aren't the problem.

I think it's a bit of a reinforcing cycle. The cultural influences that allow assault or harassment are there with or without porn. It can just bolster the attitude when it is present. I think it's overarching messages about gender, women's sexuality, etc that fuel it.

 

with luv,

BD 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I think its pure luck that I met my wife. Or that she gave me the time of day.

I sometimes think arranged marriages are the way to go. Almost

Yep. My wife initiated first contact on the dating website we were both on. Because she liked my smile.  And then when the time came she initiated the suggestion that we meet for the first time.  It was nice not having to take all the risks!

I think Heavenly Father arranged our marriage.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Yeah, stuff is popping up for me that I hadn't thought of in years.  It never seemed that much taken one at a time while I was going through it, but if my daughter came home and and told me this stuff, I would be very upset for her.

Tonight my son told me that he asked a girl out at an H&M store, he didn't know her at all and she wasn't wearing a ring. Turns out she was married. So I told him to be careful how he aproaches someone, because women may feel harrassed. I told him some of my experiences and told him women encounter a lot of the same thing and may get upset in how he asks her out. During my conversation my husband overheard and said I'd never told him some of the stories. Well that's because sometimes he makes me feel like it's my fault, or I get the vibe that he thinks that way or it may be that I carry guilt over it. 

[Calm]

If you feel comfortable with it, have him read this thread to see how so many active, faithful women have experienced similar things.

[Storm Rider]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Tonight my son told me that he asked a girl out at an H&M store, he didn't know her at all and she wasn't wearing a ring. Turns out she was married. So I told him to be careful how he aproaches someone, because women may feel harrassed. I told him some of my experiences and told him women encounter a lot of the same thing and may get upset in how he asks her out. During my conversation my husband overheard and said I'd never told him some of the stories. Well that's because sometimes he makes me feel like it's my fault, or I get the vibe that he thinks that way or it may be that I carry guilt over it. 

Hello Tacenda - I enjoy the Halloween celebratory picture and thank you for being a source of pleasure.

What I am about to say is only my opinion. Unfortunately, I am a guy, which appears to mean that I am the source of all evil in the world and should have learned long ago to just shut up and not talk while adult females are talking about real issues, but I digress.

Please go back and read your post.  How much of your post has to do with your husband and how much has to do with your feelings, your perceptions, etc.  We have always tried to teach our family that we are responsible for our own feelings and that we should not give away our own responsibility to anyone else.  More importantly, it does not matter what the other person says or does - we are not responsible for their words and actions. We are only responsible for our own.  Further, we will not accept responsibility for the words and actions of others.  That is their burden and not ours. 

We must live our lives being fully responsible and understanding that we are capable of controlling our words and actions. 

Never sell yourself short - you have an immense - as in towering - value. Not only to our Father in Heaven but to individuals you don't even know. We each need to learn to put aside our burdens and rely completely upon our Savior.  God bless you

Edited October 19, 2017 by Storm Rider

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Hello Tacenda - enjoy the Halloween celebratory picture and thank you for being a source of pleasure.

What I am about to say is only my opinion. Unfortunately, I am a guy, which appears to the source of all evil in the world and should have learned long ago to just shut up and not talk while adult females are talking about real issues, but I digress.

Please go back and read your post.  How much of your post has to do with your husband and how much has to do with your feelings, your perceptions, etc.  We have always tried to teach our family that we are responsible for our own feelings and that we will not give away our own responsibility to anyone else.  More importantly, it does not matter what the other person says or does - we are not responsible for their words and actions. We are only responsible for our won.  Further, we will not accept responsibility for the words and actions of others.  That is their burden and not ours. 

We must live our lives being fully responsible and capable of controlling our words and actions. 

Never sell yourself short - you have an immense - as in towering - value. Not only to our Father in Heaven but to individuals you don't even know. We each need to learn to put aside our burdens and rely completely upon our Savior.  God bless you

God bless you back Storm, thanks. 

[Michael Sudworth]

I was going to start a new thread but I guess I can't do that. 

I was raised in an environment where showing disrespect to women -- of any age -- was unacceptable.  From a very early age my Mother and Father taught and showed me that men who love the Lord honored women. Whenever my dad got home he immediately started cleaning up around the house, changing diapers, helping with dinner, etc...  He would often come home and tell my mom to go take a break and do whatever she wanted to do while he watched the kids. My dad clearly loved my mom and was very aware of the difficulties of being a homemaker and spending the day the day with nutty kids. My mom loved my dad and appreciated the long hours he spent working to provide for the family. In my family my mom and dad certainly served in different "roles", but it was made abundantly clear to us kids that marriage was a true partnership that required kindness, patience, and empathy. As a young man I was taught that this kindness, patience, and empathy didn't start when you walk out of the temple but were an essential part of how men and women should interact at any age. So I was taught over and over and over again that it was my *duty* to honor and respect women.  I know some today would say this is "benevolent sexism" but regardless, the end result was that I did my best to put this into practice. It wasn't that women were on a pedestal.  Well, I guess it would be more accurate to say that to men, women were on a pedestal and for women, men were on a pedestal but I think the core idea was that men and women should recognize each other's value and honor it.

As a young man I was taught that I must have self-control. It was all on me. I was taught to dress modestly. Having self-control over my own raging hormones was part of showing respect. After all, if I was simply lusting after a woman how could I be respectful? This was taught over and over and over again.

I've carried these lessons with me throughout life and have tried to be respectful of my female friends, co-workers, girlfriends, and now, my wife and children. I should also add that I saw similar lessons being taught to my LDS friends and to the best of my knowledge, they too have tried to live up to these standards. My brothers have lived up to these standards and now have beautiful families where respect and kindness is always the goal. Humans fall short but I think it is safe to say that the lessons taught by our mom and dad have resulted in positive relationships and marriages.

Given how I was raised, I have been absolutely horrified by the stories shared by Sisters here over the past few days.  Of course I have known that sexism and sexist and boorish behavior exist. But I had no idea it was so common. I am shocked that our Sisters have had to tolerate this type of behavior from such an early age.

Most of us don't have the power or influence to drive broad cultural changes. But we do have tremendous influence on our own families and the values they hold.  So, I'm curious about other's thoughts and experiences.

* What were you taught as a young LDS person about relationships between men and women?
* What are some concrete things we can teach our young men and women to help combat sexism and sexual harassment?

I am teaching my sons and daughters the same lessons taught to me. But honestly I worry about outside influences on social media, etc... As much as I don't like it, my kids will be exposed to ideas, images, and messages that run counter to the values I am trying to teach. I've actually saved a couple of the stories shared here and will be sharing them with my son. Hopefully this will spark some good conversations.

Thank you to all the Sisters who shared their stories this week.  You are making a difference.

 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Michael Sudworth said:

I was going to start a new thread but I guess I can't do that. 

I was raised in an environment where showing disrespect to women -- of any age -- was unacceptable.  From a very early age my Mother and Father taught and showed me that men who love the Lord honored women. Whenever my dad got home he immediately started cleaning up around the house, changing diapers, helping with dinner, etc...  He would often come home and tell my mom to go take a break and do whatever she wanted to do while he watched the kids. My dad clearly loved my mom and was very aware of the difficulties of being a homemaker and spending the day the day with nutty kids. My mom loved my dad and appreciated the long hours he spent working to provide for the family. In my family my mom and dad certainly served in different "roles", but it was made abundantly clear to us kids that marriage was a true partnership that required kindness, patience, and empathy. As a young man I was taught that this kindness, patience, and empathy didn't start when you walk out of the temple but were an essential part of how men and women should interact at any age. So I was taught over and over and over again that it was my *duty* to honor and respect women.  I know some today would say this is "benevolent sexism" but regardless, the end result was that I did my best to put this into practice. It wasn't that women were on a pedestal.  Well, I guess it would be more accurate to say that to men, women were on a pedestal and for women, men were on a pedestal but I think the core idea was that men and women should recognize each other's value and honor it.

As a young man I was taught that I must have self-control. It was all on me. I was taught to dress modestly. Having self-control over my own raging hormones was part of showing respect. After all, if I was simply lusting after a woman how could I be respectful? This was taught over and over and over again.

I've carried these lessons with me throughout life and have tried to be respectful of my female friends, co-workers, girlfriends, and now, my wife and children. I should also add that I saw similar lessons being taught to my LDS friends and to the best of my knowledge, they too have tried to live up to these standards. My brothers have lived up to these standards and now have beautiful families where respect and kindness is always the goal. Humans fall short but I think it is safe to say that the lessons taught by our mom and dad have resulted in positive relationships and marriages.

Given how I was raised, I have been absolutely horrified by the stories shared by Sisters here over the past few days.  Of course I have known that sexism and sexist and boorish behavior exist. But I had no idea it was so common. I am shocked that our Sisters have had to tolerate this type of behavior from such an early age.

Most of us don't have the power or influence to drive broad cultural changes. But we do have tremendous influence on our own families and the values they hold.  So, I'm curious about other's thoughts and experiences.

* What were you taught as a young LDS person about relationships between men and women?
* What are some concrete things we can teach our young men and women to help combat sexism and sexual harassment?

I am teaching my sons and daughters the same lessons taught to me. But honestly I worry about outside influences on social media, etc... As much as I don't like it, my kids will be exposed to ideas, images, and messages that run counter to the values I am trying to teach. I've actually saved a couple of the stories shared here and will be sharing them with my son. Hopefully this will spark some good conversations.

Thank you to all the Sisters who shared their stories this week.  You are making a difference.

 

Wow..thank you for listening...for empathy...understanding...and how it can be. 

[Jeanne]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

"  If a man persists after a woman has expressed that it is unwelcome and unwanted, only then should it be considered "harassment" (i.e. "aggressive pressure or intimidation")."

I disagree that this can be globally applied.  I think there are red flag behaviours that should never be done unless the person knows one well.  For example, touching a woman from behind or touching her at all.  Talking to a woman in an isolated place without her seeing you first, except if you feel there is an immediate need for her to know you are there (say she is stopped on the side of a lonely road at night and you want to help, you can go up to her car and stay over an arm's distance and ask her if she is okay and if you can call the police for her or if she would like you to wait in your car until someone shows up).  If she is going to step in a puddle of milk or something, a light tap on the shoulder is one thing, but just to draw attention to yourself...no touching.  If you want to talk to a strange woman, see if she is willing to make eye contact, if she does and keeps looking and smiles, then open a conversation.  

It is not okay to keep touching a woman on the shoulder or anywhere else until she says "stop".  

If a woman says nothing, that is not automatically permission to continue,  she may be too frightened to speak.

Yeah...it is the"creepy" before an action..hard to explain but I understand what you are saying...a woman is aware that the other person is aware of what he is doing..or touched...it is just creepy.  By the way, , my daughter's meeting with supervisors went fairly well..they listened...took notes and promised to have eyes out....and they would deal with the problem.  Okay....but if this doesn't work..I and my son will step in and authorities notified.

[pogi]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

"  If a man persists after a woman has expressed that it is unwelcome and unwanted, only then should it be considered "harassment" (i.e. "aggressive pressure or intimidation")."

I disagree that this can be globally applied.  I think there are red flag behaviours that should never be done unless the person knows one well.  For example, touching a woman from behind or touching her at all.  Talking to a woman in an isolated place without her seeing you first, except if you feel there is an immediate need for her to know you are there (say she is stopped on the side of a lonely road at night and you want to help, you can go up to her car and stay over an arm's distance and ask her if she is okay and if you can call the police for her or if she would like you to wait in your car until someone shows up).  If she is going to step in a puddle of milk or something, a light tap on the shoulder is one thing, but just to draw attention to yourself...no touching.  If you want to talk to a strange woman, see if she is willing to make eye contact, if she does and keeps looking and smiles, then open a conversation.  

It is not okay to keep touching a woman on the shoulder or anywhere else until she says "stop".  

If a woman says nothing, that is not automatically permission to continue,  she may be too frightened to speak.

16 hours ago, ttribe said:

Here's my suggestion - Men don't get to tell women how women should define harassment.

16 hours ago, ttribe said:

I agree with your general observation about the need for consensus in legal and employment settings, but I think you understood the purpose of my statement; namely, to drive home the point that we (as men) don't get to tell women how to feel about the things men may do that make them uncomfortable, fearful, etc.

Thanks for your thoughts.   I am going to refrain from making any further comments on this matter.  I don't want to distract from a good thing.  Though we may disagree on whether certain behaviors should be considered "sexual harassment" vs. "unwanted sexual attention", I think that we can all agree that these behaviors can make women very uncomfortable, fearful etc.  I am not trying to invalidate those feelings at all, or suggest that such behaviors should be socially acceptable.  That is why your voices are so important!  Whether considered harassment or not, men need to know what situations can make women feel uneasy, unsafe, uncomfortable, fearful, etc. from the perspective of women.  That will make bigger waves of change than any definition of harassment might cause, in my opinion. 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by pogi