Hearing from women who have been abused

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

With pleasure.  I am disgusted at the content of this thread.

 

You have provided a lot of that content.....

Quote

Black men used to have to be extra careful, based on concerns about them being untrustworthy around (white) women.  That bit of rank prejudice should be in our rearview mirror by now.  

Seriously, stop. You are not going to get away with appropriating black experience to shame women who are learning to speak about their experiences.    

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Rain said:

I participate on a message board that is probably 99.9% female. Yesterday we had a thread with post after post with the reasons they were not posting on facebook - their moms or dads did not know, their best friend's husband was the one who was the harasser, their siblings were still coming to terms with something they all experienced as a children. They didn't want to be asked about it. Sadly, there was probably a lot of stories that were never posted on facebook. 

There were some men who posted #me too and I'm ok with that. I'm glad they could feel support and not feel very alone like I'm sure many do feel. 

If there are men who wish to share personal stories of abuse by male or female here, I as the OPer have no issue with that.

I do have a problem with men telling women how they must tell their story to be acceptable.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Calm

[juliann]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

 

The part I find offensive, and damnably false, is the notion that all men are inchoate rapists.

 

Another strawman.  

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

BD can elaborate on this, but this was on FB,

Maybe that is how we separate the "good men" from the predators. 

I'm sitting here thinking, 'why is this a debate? Why does there have to be a "but" right after "This is horrible"'. Love that men are asking what they can do.

 

[clarkgoble]

58 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i saw an interview the other night and for the life of me I can't recall which Hollywood actress said it, so take this with a 10000000 lbs of salt, but she said that for every pig in hollywood there are decent, men who treat women with respect but those men aren't being talked about because those men aren't raping or molesting or making jokes. It's the bad ones who need to be shined a light on and held accountable for their actions.

Not that this should be about Hollywood, but if there's only a few good guys for every pig that's pretty damning of Hollywood. (And I wouldn't at all be surprised were Hollywood that big a cesspool)

In any case, the problem is, that it's like the old analogy of having a poisoned M&M. If you don't know in advance which one it is then you're going to be in fear of the whole bag. Worse, the worst predators are often on the psychopathy spectrum and are able to fake being "good guys." Even beyond that there are the naive ignorant guys who cross boundaries or may not understand how their actions appear to others. The problem in these discussions are men who worry more about intentions rather than appearances. When making judgments all you have to go on are appearances.That means clueless guys can be deeply frightening for many women. 

[Calm]

Sheesh, Smac...is it so hard to believe that there are women out there who because of abusive histories are terrified of all men as rapists?  Is it impossible for a woman to acknowledge that some women live with that for us irrational fear without you insisting that recognition of that fact means the same thing as believing that fear is reality in each and every case?  Or that all women need to plan their lives as if the next guy they meet might be a rapist because he might be even if the probability is low?

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No, it's not.  It's rank bigotry and misandry.  I reject it.

It's more than unfair.  It's bigotry and misandry.

"Two wrongs do not make a right" is a very well-word cliché.  But it's apt here.

Black men used to have to be extra careful, based on concerns about them being untrustworthy around (white) women.  That bit of rank prejudice should be in our rearview mirror by now.  But nope.  It's alive and well.  And being deployed, in this thread, against all men.  But as you said "No one is saying that's it's fair," so I guess that means it's acceptable.  Or something.

Oh, believe me.  I am learning something in this thread.  There are women in our society - in our LDS society, no less - who are just fine with publicly declaring that all men are inchoate rapists (as you put it, "That's probably a good conclusion to draw"), and then telling them they'll just need to shut up and accept such designations because "{n}o one is saying that it's fair."

Wow.  So not only are men presumptively inchoate rapists, expressing concern about such an appalling thing triggers snotty remarks like this.

What an illuminating thread.

Let's see.  You are publicly accusing men - all men - of being inchoate rapists (as you put it, "That's probably a good conclusion to draw"), and then you come back around and ridicule concerns expressed by a man about being so labeled.

I'm honestly in shock, too.  

You have never met me.  I have never given the slightest indication of being a sexual predator.  But because I am a male, you have publicly declared me to be an inchoate rapist.  That is bigotry and misandry of the first order.

Yes, I think you should feel "guilty" about that.  It is an appalling, shameful thing to say.  It is bearing false witness.  It is a damnable lie and falsehood to brand all of God's sons "inchoate rapists."  But you have done so.  Publicly.

With pleasure.  I am disgusted at the content of this thread.

-Smac

Where did i say that you were a rapist?  I said that it's probably a good thing to conclude that some women are terrified of you because they think you could be a rapist.  And from that one statement you came up with everything above.  Doesn't that seem just a tad bit irrational to you?  

I think you've succumbed to the 'reductio ad absurdum' fallacy, as you have taken one (reasonable) statement of mine and reduced it to an absurd and impractical conclusion where i've accused you of being a rapist.  And now you've accused me (from that one statement) of being a bigot and told me that I should feel guilty.

All because i said that you should probably conclude that some women are afraid of you.  Oh, the horror.  I can totally (Not. Not at all.  Not even a little bit) see why you are disgusted.

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, juliann said:

You have provided a lot of that content.....

I have said nothing to disparage women.  Either individually or categorically.

In contrast, men, all men, are being characterized categorically in this thread as inchoate rapists.  

4 minutes ago, juliann said:

Seriously, stop. You are not going to get away with appropriating black experience to shame women who are learning to speak about their experiences.    

Funny, I was thinking the same thing of the rank misandry on display, except that those demonstrating it are "get{ting} away with it."

If this thread had participants characterizing all black men as "inchoate rapists," it would be shut down in an instant.  But if the categorical calumny is applied to all men, if all men are characterized as "inchoate rapists," then that's just fine.

So blatant race-based prejudice is bad, but blatant gender-based prejudice is just fine, I guess (as long as the prejudice is directed against men, anyway).

-Smac

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Um, what?  You elsewhere have told me that it is "probably a good conclusion to draw" that "some women are 'terrified' of me because they think of me - and all men - as potential/inchoate rapists."

Again, this conclusion is - in your words - "good."  But now you are calling it a "straw man."

But the title of the thread is about "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused."

The part I find offensive, and damnably false, is the notion that all men are inchoate rapists.

-Smac

I did not realize that you were incapable of understanding the difference between "all men could be rapists" (what I said) and "all men are rapists" (your interpretation of what i said).  

Your interpretation of what i said is a straw man argument.   It's not what i said and it's not a reasonable interpretation of what I said.  It's a completely made up argument that you then spend a lot of time self righteously yet triumphantly tearing down while putting me in my place (for something i didn't say).

[The Nehor]

Fine, maybe you are an inchoate rapist. Now that we have agreement on that can you sulk off and start your own thread about how rough male life is and stop mansplaining and acting as if sexual assault and rape in society is primarily aimed at making you feel bad and that you are the real victim?

[Jeanne]

I love men..they have saved me...their strength, their protection...and their trying to embrace me with humor and love.  But I also know...that I am okay without the special someone...that I am strong, and can protect myself the best I can...and still laugh at life.  Know that I don't lump everyone in all together...but it is a fear and a lack of trust that encompasses me with all that I do not know about an individual...we all need eachother...and yet..we find our greatest strengths in those things we do alone and for ourselves.  There are women with problems...too.  But one who has been abused...by either sex..will have a heavy load and sorry to repair.  The bottom line is....we don't need anyone to tell us that we are beneath..and below...and have to prove above all odds that we exist and deserve to be.

Smac...listen.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I have said nothing to disparage women.  Either individually or categorically.

In contrast, men, all men, are being characterized categorically in this thread as inchoate rapists.  

Funny, I was thinking the same thing of the rank misandry on display, except that those demonstrating it are "get{ting} away with it."

If this thread had participants characterizing all black men as "inchoate rapists," it would be shut down in an instant.  But if the categorical calumny is applied to all men, if all men are characterized as "inchoate rapists," then that's just fine.

So blatant race-based prejudice is bad, but blatant gender-based prejudice is just fine, I guess (as long as the prejudice is directed against men, anyway).

-Smac

It's fair to acknowledge that it's quite possible that some women might find themselves afraid or uncomfortable with you.  not because they are just so mean and prejudiced, but because they've been victimized, perhaps, in some cases in ways you simply can't imagine.  Just as you don't know if any certain woman will be afraid of you, in any given situation, she doesn't know if you are one to be feared or not.  based on the notion that women have had to endure some pretty harsh things at the hands of men in this world, throughout the world's history no less, It's probably fair for women to feel threat even if no threat is coming.  I think you realize this, but aren't acknowledging it because you want to be heard about men being unfairly categorized.  That's really a small potatoes issue compared to a woman being assaulted, don't you think? 

[Amulek]

52 minutes ago, pogi said:

I hear what you are saying, but I do think it is the unfortunate but necessary onus/burden of the woman to protect herself and avoid potentially unsafe situations.  We can (and should) do all that we can to teach men not to assault women (and vise versa), but it is unrealistic to expect it to always work.  There will always be perpetrators.

This is not to say that women should be made to feel guilty or responsible/accountable for being a victim; but simply to say that we should do all that we can to be realistic about the threat and prepare our daughters to fend of aggressive men if necessary, and to avoid dangerous situations.  I think that is the reasonable and responsible approach.  

I completely agree. I think the problem is not that we advise women (especially young women) that they need to learn how to protect themselves and avoid potentially unsafe situations - that is imminently good advice, and I believe there would be real, serious costs if we were to never talk about those realities. The problem, I think, is that this kind of advice (e.g., Do X to avoid being victimized) can sometimes be seen as carrying an unstated, implicit message (e.g., You didn't do X, and you were victimized, so you were foolish). 

As such, we have to be careful about how we say such things. The way I usually phrase it when speaking with my daughter is that it is a shame that we have to be wary of such things, but it's prudent to take these risks into account when making decisions. 

In a perfect world, none of this would be a problem. Unfortunately, that isn't the world that we happen to live in.

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I did not realize that you were incapable of understanding the difference between "all men could be rapists" (what I said) and "all men are rapists" (your interpretation of what i said).  

Your interpretation of what i said is a straw man argument.   It's not what i said and it's not a reasonable interpretation of what I said.  It's a completely made up argument that you then spend a lot of time self righteously yet triumphantly tearing down while putting me in my place (for something i didn't say).

But he is so cute when he is angry.

(For those who need an interpreter, this is what women are told when their objections are being dismissed.)

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Fine, maybe you are an inchoate rapist. Now that we have agreement on that can you sulk off and start your own thread about how rough male life is and stop mansplaining and acting as if sexual assault and rape in society is primarily aimed at making you feel bad and that you are the real victim?

Sometimes I get sad that I made the rank of limited person unable to start threads and give a thumbs up to someone. 

[cacheman]

It's heartbreaking,  but not surprising to hear these accounts.  My eighteen year old daughter has told me numerous stories of sexual harassment she's experienced at school and work.  My wife was raped as a young teen in addition to many instances of harassment and inappropriate advances.  These scenarios happen to often and are too often excused, brushed under the table,  or even condoned.  We need to listen and do our part to stop this damaging madness.

 

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sheesh, Smac...is it so hard to believe that there are women out there because of abusive histories are terrified of all men?  

No, I can accept that.  What I find problematic is the normalization/rationalization of an inherently irrational belief.

I have a few instances of friends (males) who have had a horrible experiences with girlfriends or wives, and who have then extrapolated that experience into bigoted characterizations of all women (that they all cheat, that they are only interested in taking your money, etc.).  I get that their personal/individual experiences have been horrible, but indulging them in their extrapolated hatred / suspicion / contempt of all women for the actions of one (or few) never crossed my mind.  I cannot comprehend a situation in which I would say something like "Okay, dude, so your recent experience in getting divorced has made you hate and be suspicious of all women everywhere?  Sure!  That's a good and healthy perspective!  Keep at it!  In fact, let's get you together with other men who feel the same way, 'cuz multiplying public expressions of falsehoods about women is cathartic!"

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is it impossible for a woman to acknowledge that some women live with that irrational fear without you insisting that recognition of that fact means the same thing as believing that fear is reality?

Yes, that is possible.

-Smac

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, cacheman said:

It's heartbreaking,  but not surprising to hear these accounts.  My eighteen year old daughter has told me numerous stories of sexual harassment she's experienced at school and work.  My wife was raped as a young teen in addition to many instances of harassment and inappropriate advances.  These scenarios happen to often and are too often excused, brushed under the table,  or even condoned.  We need to listen and do our part to stop this damaging madness.

 

My daughter, today, is having a meeting with supervisors....there is a man that follows her...everywhere..lunch ..breaks...it is not that he is being overly avert...just creepy..she is scared. 

[cacheman]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

My daughter, today, is having a meeting with supervisors....there is a man that follows her...everywhere..lunch ..breaks...it is not that he is being overly avert...just creepy..she is scared. 

It is frightening.  My daughter lives in another town,  so I worry.  Fortunately,  she has coworkers who walk her to her car.  They all keep an eye out for each other.  There have been several instances where police were called and the men permanently banned from the store. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by cacheman
Spelling

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

Yes, that is possible.

-Smac

Then please allow us to do so without assuming we are normalizing the belief that all men are rapists.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It is very sad that women must treat every man we come in contact with when we are vulnerable as a predator that means to do us harm, but like you said, that is often the only reasonable and responsible approach. 

That kind of mentality has it's own negative consequences though.  It's emotionally difficult to live in that world, for example.  It's mentally painful in many ways and a burden in it's own right.  But, better than being assaulted, like you said.

It is sad that this is even an issue, but it is.  However, I do believe that it is excessive and unhealthy to "treat every man as a predator that means to do us harm".  You are right, that mentality has negative consequences and is unfair and dangerous to the sanity and well-being of women.  There is a better way.  We have to maintain some level of trust in men and humanity or else women will self-sabotage every relationship that they are ever in, living in a state of constant paranoia, incapable of healthy relationships with those of the opposite sex, incapable of trust. 

I recently took part in an active shooter training (required for government workers), I think it was an insightful and useful approach to life in general.  It is a color system for situational awareness.  What you are describing above is condition red, or even black.  I don't recommend that women be in condition red around all men, unless they want stomach ulcers and other health problems from living in chronic anxiety!  What I was suggesting is that women simply avoid condition white around men.  I think that condition yellow and orange are the most appropriate states of awareness most of the time.  

Here is a link for those interested:

https://www.policeone.com/police-trainers/articles/2188253-Coopers-colors-A-simple-system-for-situational-awareness/

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, cacheman said:

It is frightening.  My daughter lives in another town,  so I worry.  Fortunately,  she has coworkers who walk her to her car.  They all keep an eye out for each other.  There have been several instances where police were called and the men permanently banned from the store. 

It is frightening...this guy is an employee...and friends with everyone...her fear is that they won't believe her...my fear too...I so hate this!!

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Science tells us that the male of the species is hardwired to be constantly looking to spread his seed as far and wide as possible . The female is hardwired to send signals to attract males so that she can choose the best possible one to produce offspring . To expect any behavior that would interfere with these biological imperatives will always be a losing battle. Over the last few decades the media have pushed sexuality to new heights. Pick up any magazine, newspaper , internet site etc. and more than likely there are images etc. which promote lust and sexual desire. Do we expect all this influence to be totally rejected by our boys and girls , our men and women ? What power on earth or in heaven is capable of overcoming the natural man/woman ?

Note: this post does not necessarily reflect the views of the poster

the power of Jesus Christ. He can change human nature

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I completely agree. I think the problem is not that we advise women (especially young women) that they need to learn how to protect themselves and avoid potentially unsafe situations - that is imminently good advice, and I believe there would be real, serious costs if we were to never talk about those realities. The problem, I think, is that this kind of advice (e.g., Do X to avoid being victimized) can sometimes be seen as carrying an unstated, implicit message (e.g., You didn't do X, and you were victimized, so you were foolish). 

As such, we have to be careful about how we say such things. The way I usually phrase it when speaking with my daughter is that it is a shame that we have to be wary of such things, but it's prudent to take these risks into account when making decisions. 

In a perfect world, none of this would be a problem. Unfortunately, that isn't the world that we happen to live in.

Here is the problem with that. It places the burden on the women. Much of what has to change is our language, just as it had to change when it came to how the privileged groups could speak about the less privileged. A lot of what we routinely used to say would only produce a horrified gasp now. We have yet to apply that learning curve to women. The way I address this is to add a list of rules for men. The satirical list of how not to rape should show the absurdity of placing the burden of not being raped on the woman rather than the rapist. But where I think it really becomes self-evident is to make a list for men who are afraid of being falsely accused of rape (the standard justification for not taking women victims seriously.) What makes it so obvious is that the rules are just as common sense....so why are they promoted? 

We could make a similar list for how not to be accused of rape that make just as much sense as what women are told. 

1. Don't attend wild parties

2. Don't drink

3. Don't get yourself in a compromising situation with a romantic interest you don't know well or have a buddy close by.

4. Don't wear clothing, walk or talk in a way that is suggestive and could target you as an easy mark.

You get the point. Now we need to ask ourselves why men aren't being told this all their lives to the point it seems almost comical to hear such rules. 

 

[bsjkki]

I spoke up in ward council about the need to add to the standard chastity lesson the need to discuss sexual assault at a youth standards night. The discussion needs to happen and I think it is time to define inappropriate behavior for young women and young men. One person did express he knew of a young men in legal problems due to inapropriate advances who wished someone had warned him. 

There are young men who are predators in wards. We are not doing them favors by not explaining bluntly the consequences of aggressive, coercive, sexual behaviors. If they inherently know not to be rapists...why do I know so many victims?