Hearing from women who have been abused

[juliann]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

That is very likely.  Not all women, let alone men, will agree on which behaviors are considered sexual harassment and which aren't.  It is only considered sexual harassment if it is "unwelcome".  What makes it welcome can often depend on which guy a woman is being approached by quite honestly, and her mood that day.  Not every woman is unwelcome to sexual solicitation from strangers, for example.  Be they in the form of a gift, an invitation, etc. etc. etc. 

My version of sexual harassment would be this:  If a man persists after a woman has expressed that it is unwelcome and unwanted, only then should it be considered "harassment" (i.e. "aggressive pressure or intimidation").

 

People don't agree on what should be considered a crime in many instances. Stealing is a crime but in personal relationships a child may steal from a parent. Is that a reason to make a bank teller have to say no to a robbery before it can be considered a crime? No woman should be put in a position of having to experience harassment before it can be considered wrong. And it won't stop unless it is considered wrong.

As for men being concerned about false accusations, I would advise them to not put themselves in situations where they would be vulnerable, even if it means feeling limited in dating overtures. As we have seen far too many men don't seem to be able to make the distinction between dating overtures and every woman in the office or on the street. 

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, juliann said:

People don't agree on what should be considered a crime in many instances. Stealing is a crime but in personal relationships a child may steal from a parent. Is that a reason to make a bank teller have to say no to a robbery before it can be considered a crime? No woman should be put in a position of having to experience harassment before it can be considered wrong. And it won't stop unless it is considered wrong.

As for men being concerned about false accusations, I would advise them to not put themselves in situations where they would be vulnerable, even if it means feeling limited in dating overtures. As we have seen far too many men don't seem to be able to make the distinction between dating overtures and every woman in the office or on the street. 

I would comment, but I just posted that I don't want to distract from this thread further.  If you think it is on topic and not a distraction, I would be happy to respond.  I understand what you are saying, but I think my point is a little misunderstood still - that is my fault. 

[Amulek]

16 hours ago, pogi said:

That is very likely.  Not all women, let alone men, will agree on which behaviors are considered sexual harassment and which aren't.  It is only considered sexual harassment if it is "unwelcome".  What makes it welcome can often depend on which guy a woman is being approached by quite honestly, and her mood that day.  Not every woman is unwelcome to sexual solicitation from strangers, for example.  Be they in the form of a gift, an invitation, etc. etc. etc. 

My version of sexual harassment would be this:  If a man persists after a woman has expressed that it is unwelcome and unwanted, only then should it be considered "harassment" (i.e. "aggressive pressure or intimidation").

Think about it, doesn't it seem kind of much to include every sexual advancement that is "unwelcome" under the "harassment" umbrella?  How can the man or the woman clearly make their intentions known that they are interested in potentially pursuing a sexual relationship without being at risk of being accused of sexual harassment if the other party ends up not being interested in that way? 

I tend to agree. If the term "harassment" becomes so broad and far-reaching that it includes simply being approached / hit on in a public place (e.g., Whole Foods, Barnes and Nobel, the Cougareat (is that even still a thing?)), then that strikes me as taking it a bit too far. I can certainly think of situations where something like that could be considered harassment, but I think the 'unwanted attention' characterization is probably going to be a better fit for the vast majority of those cases.

 

 

[juliann]

26 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I tend to agree. If the term "harassment" becomes so broad and far-reaching that it includes simply being approached / hit on in a public place (e.g., Whole Foods, Barnes and Nobel, the Cougareat (is that even still a thing?)), then that strikes me as taking it a bit too far. I can certainly think of situations where something like that could be considered harassment, but I think the 'unwanted attention' characterization is probably going to be a better fit for the vast majority of those cases.

 

 

What in the world do you consider being "hit on" or "approached"? We are talking about being grabbed, touched, stalked, and verbally assaulted. What does that have to do with respectfully approaching someone and then retreating if told no?  There seems to be a real disconnect here regarding the definition of harassment. 

[juliann]

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

I would comment, but I just posted that I don't want to distract from this thread further.  If you think it is on topic and not a distraction, I would be happy to respond.  I understand what you are saying, but I think my point is a little misunderstood still - that is my fault. 

How about taking it here? http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69737-abuse-among-men-as-adults-or-children/

 

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said:

I was going to start a new thread but I guess I can't do that. 

 

You have to hit 25 posts before you can start threads in General Discussions or In The News. 

[Stargazer]

46 minutes ago, juliann said:

What in the world do you consider being "hit on" or "approached"? We are talking about being grabbed, touched, stalked, and verbally assaulted. What does that have to do with respectfully approaching someone and then retreating if told no?  There seems to be a real disconnect here regarding the definition of harassment. 

Yes, there is a real disconnect. 

Do you remember the brouhaha over the lady in Seattle who, after a City council meeting, had spoken publicly and complimentarily about the police, and confronted him about it on video -- and went ballistic after she asked him his name and he responded "Hugh Mungus"? She screamed and hollered about his sexual harassment, all the while trying to get him to "admit" that the "humongous" thing was... something.  We live is nutty times, and you have to be very careful what you say, because at any moment some nutjob is going to take your words and twist them completely out of shape while accusing you of heinous crimes.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

What in the world do you consider being "hit on" or "approached"?

You know, regular everyday stuff.

You see an attractive girl at the grocery store (check); she seems to be roughly your age (check); she is wearing BYU apparel and shopping at a store which is within walking distance of BYU approved student housing so she is probably LDS (check); she isn't wearing a wedding ring (check); she isn't dressed in such a manner as to indicate that she may be going to or coming from an activity where it might not be practical to wear a wedding ring, such as the gym [caution learned from previous experience] (check); she appears to show an acceptable level of interest in avocados (check); so...might as well be bold, wander over and strike up a polite conversation. 

 

Quote

We are talking about being grabbed, touched, stalked, and verbally assaulted.

All of which are absolutely horrible. No woman should have to experience any those things. Ever.

And if this side conversation is taking the thread away from that message in any way, I am more than willing to table any further comments.

 

Quote

What does that have to do with respectfully approaching someone and then retreating if told no?  There seems to be a real disconnect here regarding the definition of harassment. 

I think the definition gap isn't so great but I think there may be a perception difference sometimes. For example, earlier in the thread, Blue Dreams made a moving post about how women who have suffered from sexual abuse / mistreatment are traumatized and experience PTSD (or maybe, she said the trauma was like PTSD; I can't remember the exact phrasing). That really made a lot of sense to me. It provides an excellent explanation as to why some people might perceive something as being frightening - even though most people might consider that same thing to be rather innocuous.

The story in the opening post has an example that I think fits into that category: how she fears being alone with her Bishop during her temple interviews. Even though the overwhelming majority of Bishops aren't sexual predators, the percentage of Bishops who might take advantage of a woman isn't necessarily zero, so it is perfectly rational to be aware of that - but for her it isn't just an awareness; it translates into real, life altering fear. And it affects how she sees everything else too. So, during the interview, he isn't just asking her a routine question about garments; no, she thinks she is being singled out for this line of questioning and is being forced to please a man about her underwear choices. 

Similarly, it seems to me that there could be times when even respectfully approaching someone might be considered harassment by someone who has been though this kind of trauma. But should that truly be considered harassment? Does an action have to be objectively harassing in order to be considered harassment or does it merely need to be perceived as being harassing? 

Unfortunately, most of the stories that have been shared have nothing to do with this kind of fringe harassment. It's absolutely heartbreaking to hear about how so many women have been exposed (often repeatedly) to clear violations of their person. It has really been eye opening and has made me realize how blessed some of those closest to me have been to have avoided some of the most egregious examples which have been shared thus far.

 

 

 

[Calm]

"how blessed some of those closest to me have been to have avoided some of the most egregious examples which have been shared thus far"

Not to be a downer, but it is possible they haven't told you of such experiences.  The only thing I told my parents about was the car thing because it was their possession and I was concerned he might have broken it.  There seemed to be no interest in discussing the rest in them and given their tendency to focus on what we could do about our problems, I was not inclined to share stuff I believed they would hold me responsible for (for example, when we get sick, Mom believes it is because we have allowed ourselves to be stressed out by what is going on and Dad was always a 'grit your teeth and endure in silence' kind of guy).

Nor has there ever been a suggestion from my husband that he thinks sexual history should be discussed any more than it was prior to marriage.  Since I haven't felt a need myself to open up about them, he is unaware of this history.  Given how I am obsessively open about feelings and thoughts as well as the experiences I went through were more awkward and potentially dangerous than traumatic, I am probably on the end of the spectrum of high probability for sharing.  That I haven't indicates to me that lots of women (and from what has been said men as well) aren't sharing these experiences with their loved ones.  This is not a condemnation of anyone, most likely most of us just don't want to revisit chapters of our lives we prefer not to think about.

[Nofear]

4 hours ago, juliann said:

What in the world do you consider being "hit on" or "approached"? We are talking about being grabbed, touched, stalked, and verbally assaulted. What does that have to do with respectfully approaching someone and then retreating if told no?  There seems to be a real disconnect here regarding the definition of harassment. 

Part of the disconnect may stem from the variance in response that often occurs in society. Doesn't make what you say untrue or incorrect at all. Some use that inconsistency to justify or rationalize inappropriate behavior despite the very incorrect sentiment expressed in the meme below. Indeed, some of the incidents the sisters in this thread have experienced may have been justified partly by this very sentiment.

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

"how blessed some of those closest to me have been to have avoided some of the most egregious examples which have been shared thus far"

Not to be a downer, but it is possible they haven't told you of such experiences.  The only thing I told my parents about was the car thing because it was their possession and I was concerned he might have broken it.  There seemed to be no interest in discussing the rest in them and given their tendency to focus on what we could do about our problems, I was not inclined to share stuff I believed they would hold me responsible for (for example, when we get sick, Mom believes it is because we have allowed ourselves to be stressed out by what is going on and Dad was always a 'grit your teeth and endure in silence' kind of guy).

I know all about that. I have something to post in the other thread, and I've gotten close to posting it several times, but haven't yet found the wherewithall to hit the "Submit Reply" button. Why? It's too close to me. It's TMI.  It's.... something.  It's not as bad as some of the posts in this thread, but it's still ...  something. I don't have a word for it.  Remember how one might have had a spiritual experience too sacred to share. Well, this isn't too sacred, but it's too... something.  Usually I don't have a hard time coming up with a word.  I'm a word-guy. Odd. 

Something my late wife never told to very many people was that she was raped twice when a young woman, once by a man who drugged her, and once forcibly by a man who was considerably stronger than she. And got pregnant each time.  When she was a little girl in bombed-out East Berlin there were perv-men going about exposing themselves to little girls, including her.  Imagine how hard it was for her two oldest sons to know that they were the product of rape? Something that they were never likely to tell anyone, either.

Sometimes the world sucks.

[Ginger Snaps]

5 hours ago, juliann said:

What in the world do you consider being "hit on" or "approached"? We are talking about being grabbed, touched, stalked, and verbally assaulted. What does that have to do with respectfully approaching someone and then retreating if told no?  There seems to be a real disconnect here regarding the definition of harassment. 

Yes. There’s a huge difference between a guy showing respectful interest and striking up a conversation vs harassing comments. 

Example 1:  There is a male employee at my local Walmart who often works the self-checkout which I always use. On more than one occasion, he’s gone “above and beyond” for me, stands and talks to me, etc. Does not touch me or follow me to my car.  Completely respectful and non-creepy.  

Example 2: also at Walmart (I have a big family and a Walmart down the street 😬). I am wearing a skirt and some guy in the parking lot feels the need to comment on the paleness of my legs and tells me I need to get some sun. 

Example 3: Church foyer (I kid you not). Wind blows my skirt up around my waist as I come in from outside. Some jerk sitting there feels the need to comment that my husband is “a lucky man.” 

See the difference? 

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I know all about that. I have something to post in the other thread, and I've gotten close to posting it several times, but haven't yet found the wherewithall to hit the "Submit Reply" button. Why? It's too close to me. It's TMI.  It's.... something.  It's not as bad as some of the posts in this thread, but it's still ...  something. I don't have a word for it.  Remember how one might have had a spiritual experience too sacred to share. Well, this isn't too sacred, but it's too... something.  Usually I don't have a hard time coming up with a word.  I'm a word-guy. Odd. 

Something my late wife never told to very many people was that she was raped twice when a young woman, once by a man who drugged her, and once forcibly by a man who was considerably stronger than she. And got pregnant each time.  When she was a little girl in bombed-out East Berlin there were perv-men going about exposing themselves to little girls, including her.  Imagine how hard it was for her two oldest sons to know that they were the product of rape? Something that they were never likely to tell anyone, either.

Sometimes the world sucks.

Don't feel pressured to say more.  I get that the time needs to be right to share, I think all of us do from what is being said.

I can't imagine knowing I was the result of rape and possibly reminded my parent of that experience every time they looked at me (hopefully not true, but what kid would be able to not wonder if it was?)

[Rain]

Is this (the meme)  about my experience which I shared? If so it is why I hesitated to share. I was afraid my story wouldn't be good enough to count.

One of the men who told me I was beautiful told me when I was on a walk along the river. At that time of day there was never really anyone around. I'd hear reports of other women being harrased, but I felt safe anyway. Later there was a body found in the river nearby though I never heard what had happened. 

When the first thing a strange man says in a deserted place as he is walking toward you is "Are you married?" it doesn't sit right. When you say, "yes" and he says, " that's too bad because you're so beautiful"  you think he is nuts, but you also pull out your cell phone to talk to your husband because with your back turned when you walk away from him you want the man to know that someone knows where you are. 

Maybe he was just socially inept, but the circumstances were too off to chance that. We often hear there is a reason we fear and to listen to it. Sadly, we also hear, "I had a bad feeling before I was attacked, but there was no logical reason to feel that way."

It REALLY bothers me that my story doesn't count, because there are women who have had similar "off" experiences and will then feel their experience doesn't count and if that experience doesn't count then maybe when they were groped must not count either and maybe when .. Then they don't share their story so they can begin to heal.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Rain

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

Is this about my experience which I shared? If so it is why I hesitated to share. I was afraid my story wouldn't be good enough to count.

One of the men who told me I was beautiful told me when I was on a walk along the river. At that time of day there was never really anyone around. I'd hear reports of other women being harrased, but I felt safe anyway. Later there was a body found in the river nearby though I never heard what had happened. 

When the first thing a strange man says in a deserted place as he is walking toward you is "Are you married?" it doesn't sit right. When you say, "yes" and he says, " that's too bad because you're so beautiful"  you think he is nuts, but you also pull out your cell phone to talk to your husband because with your back turned when you walk away from him you want the man to know that someone knows where you are. 

Maybe he was just socially inept, but the circumstances were too off to chance that. We often hear there is a reason we fear and to listen to it. Sadly, we also hear, "I had a bad feeling before I was attacked, but there was no logical reason to feel that way."

It REALLY bothers me that my story doesn't count, because there are women who have had similar "off" experiences and will then feel their experience doesn't count and if that experience doesn't count then maybe when they were groped must not count either and maybe when .. Then they don't share their story so they can begin to heal.

 

No, your story counts.

"Are you married" and "that's too bad" as opening lines is not awkwardness, it is invasive.  Especially given the location.

If it had been asked after several minutes of friendly conversation in a location where you are not alone, that might be awkwardness.

If you had said "I am not married", what would have been a reasonable response for a total stranger in a deserted area?  There would be no reasonable response.  A male does not initiate a move on a woman who does not know him when there is no one else around.

[Nofear]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

Is this (the meme)  about my experience which I shared? If so it is why I hesitated to share. I was afraid my story wouldn't be good enough to count.

Nope, not at all. My apologies if there was anything that may have implied such. My point is that some men who misbehave may incorrectly justify their misbehavior saying, "since I am hot, she really wants my attention even though she is saying no". I think it is mostly to counter that false rationalization that the meme "No means no" came about (I call it a meme even though the expression predates that term).

Men: Your comments are important but this is a thread for women according to the OP. There is another open thread for men.

 

[Jeanne]

Just wanted to shout out that my daughter's supervisors gave the gentleman the benefit of the doubt..but kept an eye on him.  In their observation they understood my daughter's concerns and he was fired.

IN my heart..I am grateful that she is safe and know that she did the right thing...I am also grateful, however, that this man did not have a family to support.  The world is often sad...we all need help.

[Rain]

On 10/20/2017 at 11:23 AM, Jeanne said:

Just wanted to shout out that my daughter's supervisors gave the gentleman the benefit of the doubt..but kept an eye on him.  In their observation they understood my daughter's concerns and he was fired.

IN my heart..I am grateful that she is safe and know that she did the right thing...I am also grateful, however, that this man did not have a family to support.  The world is often sad...we all need help.

I am glad she is safe too.

Today you are exemplifying "love your enemies". Love your compassion.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Rain