Hearing from women who have been abused

[pogi]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Here is the problem with that. It places the burden on the women. Much of what has to change is our language...

You are right, that is a problem.  It does place an unfair burden (but not necessarily "the" burden) on women.  But it is a real problem that any amount of education or change in language will not entirely fix (not to say that we should not try).  There will always be sexual predators. There will always be a burden on women that men will probably never fully understand.

To help drive my point, how effective and wise do you think it would be to change our language and place all of the burden on thieves and identity thefts to not steal our information and money?  Do you think it would be wise to not place any burden on the population (victims) to protect their own identity from thieves as much as possible?  Should we stop teaching people to not throw away sensitive information without shredding it first, to use different passwords for different accounts, to use strong passwords, etc. etc. etc.  The reality of this existence is that there is an unjust and unfair burden that all of humanity has to live with if they want protection.  We cannot expect evil to not exist.  To ignore that very real burden (as unfair as it may be) would be reckless. 

[clarkgoble]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

Seriously, every time I drive to my mom's by BYU, I am coming across beautiful young men with well cared for bodies with only shorts on.  Takes a moment to make my brain change gears.  It is bizarre to me that there is little to no recognition around here that women can have lustful thoughts.  Or maybe guys are just aware that women can't act on those impulses in the same way some criminally inclined men can...unless they have a gun.  

Interesting I have noticed more discussion of men's dress. I think there are clear modesty guidelines for men. If we focused on those more then perhaps the equivalent guidelines for women wouldn't seem so problematic. After all guys running around only in shorts seems inappropriate most of the time. Ignore the sexual angle. I just wish we dressed better - but we've kind of lost that since the 70's. (I say wearing shorts at work and a t-shirt)

But I fully agree that not enough attention is paid to women as sexual beings. To the degree anyone in Young Men's and Young Women's treat women just as signifiers to men's lust they've done a great disservice not only to chastity of both men and women but also to what modesty means. When modesty is reduced to only being about lust we've missed something. Yet if someone were to drive a Ferrari to church where many were poor that'd be just as immodest. Likewise someone dressed in a t-shirt for no good reason at church would be acting immodestly. 

That said, I think that while this does happen, I think many if not most wards actually teach young men to control their thoughts and treat young women with respect. I think they teach boys to dress appropriately to and warn them that their actions affect women whether they intend to or not. Culturally we're so focused on intentionality that we miss what the public meaning of actions or dress are. A guy wearing a transparent muscle shirt really isn't being much more modest than a woman wearing a transparent shirt with a bra on underneath. I wish we equated them more regularly.

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, Senator said:

Do men have a right to express that they can, and are being affected by the clothing choices women and girls make?

I think that's a fair question.

I think that men do have the right to express that clothing choices of others affect them (the clothing choices of men certainly affect women, though i have never personally heard that brought up as a reason that men should dress modestly in church), but only in the context of how best to handle those reactions so that they are able to stay in control and continue to make good choices.  

 

 

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, Gray said:

My cousin had an abusive ex-husband, who she divorced. One day he came back to her house and killed her, then himself.

That's horrible.  It's amazing how many of us have personal stories concerning with abusive men and abused women.  It's an epidemic.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

You are right, that is a problem.  It does place an unfair burden (but not necessarily "the" burden) on women.  But it is a real problem that any amount of education or change in language will not entirely fix (not to say that we should not try).  There will always be sexual predators. There will always be a burden on women that men will probably never fully understand.

To help drive my point, how effective and wise do you think it would be to change our language and place all of the burden on thieves and identity thefts to not steal our information and money?  Do you think it would be wise to not place any burden on the population (victims) to protect their own identity from thieves as much as possible?  Should we stop teaching people to not throw away sensitive information without shredding it first, to use different passwords for different accounts, to use strong passwords, etc. etc. etc.  The reality of this existence is that there is an unjust and unfair burden that all of humanity has to live with if they want protection.  We cannot expect evil to not exist.  To ignore that very real burden (as unfair as it may be) would be reckless. 

Pogi, how many people actually are victims of identity theft?

No one here is denying that wise parents teach their children to protect themselves.  But there is a difference when it turns out every woman I have talked to about this (except my daughter who has been more or less in social isolation since she was 12) has a story of inappropriate lines being crossed by some men she has encountered.  It is clear that the vast majority of people think identity theft is wrong and they don't participate in it.  It is not so clear that sexual harassment is frowned down upon with more than meaningless gestures given how widespread it is.  (I am not saying only meaningless gestures are being made, there are laws that have grown in protection of women...such as a husband can be jailed for raping his wife these days, just that there is still a lot that needs to be done including judges not publicly telling defendants they are good men that did a wrong thing or news reporting comments about how sad it is that a promising young man's life has been ruined even if he is being blamed for it given how it likely will haunt the young woman's life much more deeply).

[juliann]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

You are right, that is a problem.  It does place an unfair burden (but not necessarily "the" burden) on women.  But it is a real problem that any amount of education or change in language will not entirely fix (not to say that we should not try).  There will always be sexual predators. There will always be a burden on women that men will probably never fully understand.

To help drive my point, how effective and wise do you think it would be to change our language and place all of the burden on thieves and identity thefts to not steal our information and money?  Do you think it would be wise to not place any burden on the population (victims) to protect their own identity from thieves as much as possible?  Should we stop teaching people to not throw away sensitive information without shredding it first, to use different passwords for different accounts, to use strong passwords, etc. etc. etc.  The reality of this existence is that there is an unjust and unfair burden that all of humanity has to live with if they want protection.  We cannot expect evil to not exist.  To ignore that very real burden (as unfair as it may be) would be reckless. 

I agree. But that wasn't my point. My point is that the entire burden can no longer be placed on women to prevent male violence. It has to be placed on males. When it isn't, we get comments about how men will suffer from false accusations when men could just as easily protect themselves against that with the same advice given to women. They just never hear that.

So what I am talking about is parity in the way we approach these topics. Then males are never given the impression that they aren't responsible for their own behavior....or have no need to protect themselves against predatory females (although the chances of them being victimized by false accusations are far, far lower than women being assaulted or harrassed.) And because the underlying message will change, women will be getting the message that they can't control or influence men by engaging in sexual behaviors.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Interesting I have noticed more discussion of men's dress. I think there are clear modesty guidelines for men. If we focused on those more then perhaps the equivalent guidelines for women wouldn't seem so problematic. After all guys running around only in shorts seems inappropriate most of the time. Ignore the sexual angle. I just wish we dressed better - but we've kind of lost that since the 70's. (I say wearing shorts at work and a t-shirt)

But I fully agree that not enough attention is paid to women as sexual beings. To the degree anyone in Young Men's and Young Women's treat women just as signifiers to men's lust they've done a great disservice not only to chastity of both men and women but also to what modesty means. When modesty is reduced to only being about lust we've missed something. Yet if someone were to drive a Ferrari to church where many were poor that'd be just as immodest. Likewise someone dressed in a t-shirt for no good reason at church would be acting immodestly. 

That said, I think that while this does happen, I think many if not most wards actually teach young men to control their thoughts and treat young women with respect. I think they teach boys to dress appropriately to and warn them that their actions affect women whether they intend to or not. Culturally we're so focused on intentionality that we miss what the public meaning of actions or dress are. A guy wearing a transparent muscle shirt really isn't being much more modest than a woman wearing a transparent shirt with a bra on underneath. I wish we equated them more regularly.

Given that a large percentage of the young topless men I see are in BYU shorts (I think the track team or at least classes run over there given many are in packs), they definitely don't equate them on a regular basis here.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I participate on a message board that is probably 99.9% female. Yesterday we had a thread with post after post with the reasons they were not posting on facebook - their moms or dads did not know, their best friend's husband was the one who was the harasser, their siblings were still coming to terms with something they all experienced as a children. They didn't want to be asked about it. Sadly, there was probably a lot of stories that were never posted on facebook. 

There were some men who posted #me too and I'm ok with that. I'm glad they could feel support and not feel very alone like I'm sure many do feel. 

I wish I'd thought that far. I kinda forgot that I've never told my mom some of this and she flew off the handle for a moment. Talking to her also reminded me other forms of sexual harassment as a young teen I kind forgot about. I realized I had quite a bit of it, but I just shoveled it away. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

That's horrible.  It's amazing how many of us have personal stories concerning with abusive men and abused women.  It's an epidemic.

I know of two families that a wife was killed by her husband, one was the sister of a friend in Canada.  He took her into the woods and insisted they stay there until he got a revelation or they were translated, can't remember which.  She died while he waited.  However, he walked out when he got too hungry.  Got caught for manslaughter iirc when her body was later discovered.  I know of another recently where the boyfriend killed himself on the front lawn of his ex's to show everyone how wrong she was to leave him.  Nice for the kids to see.  I think I prefer it when my husband is not in leadership positions so he wouldn't hear about this stuff.  I have three close family members who have been raped as children, including two who were told they were liars by the parent responsible (he did not abuse, but created the climate).  Several more not so close relatives.

We have taken in kids abused by parents.  Can't do that anymore because of our own health problems.  So many need help, it can break you.  I was grateful to leave Canada because of one situation I was helpless to help and could only watch him self destruct.  Also feel awful I feel that way.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[juliann]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's horrible.  It's amazing how many of us have personal stories concerning with abusive men and abused women.  It's an epidemic.

What has been beyond amazing is how many don't realize what happened to them is abuse! It took me until adulthood to realize I had been the victim of honest to goodness molestation. I just assumed that since it wasn't rape, it didn't count.  He was dead before I figured it out, otherwise I would have been at his doorstep. 

That is the really sick thing about this....women have been conditioned to either accept these behaviors as a matter of course or to question themselves. 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

What has been beyond amazing is how many don't realize what happened to them is abuse! It took me until adulthood to realize I had been the victim of honest to goodness molestation. I just assumed that since it wasn't rape, it didn't count.  He was dead before I figured it out, otherwise I would have been at his doorstep. 

That is the really sick thing about this....women have been conditioned to either accept these behaviors as a matter of course or to question themselves. 

Took me five years after marriage to suddenly realized a guy I dated and kissed had been essentially using me as a porn magazine.  Being clueless, I had assumed and accepted a harmless explanation for his odd behaviour.  Took me another 10, 15 years to decide he wasn't just harming himself, but he was abusing me by lying about what was going on.  He had taken away my choice. I still burn with shame that I 'allowed' it to happen even though the only thing I did wrong was trust him and nothing happened to me directly.  I had self control and never crossed the line, so of course he must have or so I thought and he encouraged me to think.  I can understand why some people think it is wisest for practically the first kiss be the one across the altar.  I am grateful my husband had his rules he enforced upon himself even though I thought him silly at the time.  He was much wiser than I even if I had grown up in San Fran and he had grown up in Orem.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I was speaking of a very specific situation:  when women are physically vulnerable and come in contact with males they don't know if they can trust.  

Dr. Phil once said that we don't owe people the benefit of the doubt and that women (and men but to a lesser amount usually) are often victimized because they are conditioned to give people the benefit of the doubt.  It's not good to teach our daughters to trust unproven men unless or until they are harmed by them.  That's not safe.     

In most situations it's reasonable for women to behave neutrally towards men they don't know they can trust, but when a woman is in a vulnerable situation with a man she doesn't know is safe, she needs to be wary and on her guard.

I guess I misunderstood you then, and I agree with what you say here.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Double yes.  I had a guy in high school that was very very forward in his advances.  He was constantly at me, but in a way where I guess we could be considered friends because he never touched me or verbally crossed the line in my presence.

But I learned last year that this same guy would say horrible disgusting things about me in the boys locker room (such a cliche) and the few guys in there with him that actually were my friends (from church) barely did anything to stop him.  One guy (who i considered a good friend) warned me off of him when he eventually asked me out (and i'm grateful for that) but he never confronted the guy or made him stop talking about me or anything like that.  

I just recently learned all of that and it was surprisingly difficult to process.  It felt like a betrayal even all these years later and it made me question every guy i ever thought I was friends with.  Women are in a precarious situation in this society and when you think that a 'good guy' has your back and it turns out he didn't, it hurts.

Like Trump has saied, "it's only locker room talk". 

When I was in 5th grade a group of girls went to "old man Newton's" for candy. He was a prominant man at one time and LDS. We thought he was just being nice, turns out he tried to feel up girls legs and then exposed himself. I ran out of the house, and told him I was a boy, I had short hair. I'm thinking he had dementia now. But that made a huge impact on me to this day. 

When I lived in a trailer court with 4 young children my daughter who was three was touched inappropriately by her friend's dad, she told me even at that young age. I never would have thought this would happen. And in the same trailer court another older man tried stuff on the girls when they got off the bus from school, he'd have them reach in his pocket for candy. 

Two of my best friends were molested by step dads. I had a boss that tried to fondle me one night after work. My own sister in law was molested by her biological father. It's rampet, they say 1 out of 3 women have been sexually abused. I don't think it's too far off the mark. 

The big campaign of "Me Too" is on FB and I'm appauled by it all. Seeing young women commenting is the hardest for me because you'd think that in this day and age things would have gotten better. I guess not.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

The big campaign of "Me Too" is on FB and I'm appauled by it all. Seeing young women commenting is the hardest for me because you'd think that in this day and age things would have gotten better. I guess not.

We are learning to talk about it.  That is better.

And all violent crimes, including rapes, have been dropping for awhile though I haven't seen the most recent stats.

Wiki has from 2015, but also reports that some police departments are under reporting to claim success with violent crimes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

My cousin had an abusive ex-husband, who she divorced. One day he came back to her house and killed her, then himself.

Wow..can't imagine trying to wrap my head around and coming to grips with something like this.  Sad.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

We are learning to talk about it.  That is better.

I agree! 

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Pogi, if orange means immediately leave or otherwise get out of any situation that you feel is not safe or has the potential to be not safe, I would agree that women don't need to be in red all the time.  Red would be reacting to a real threat, such as screaming, hitting, etc. not a potential one. 

Right, and that is where the miscommunication happened.  If bluebell would have said that we should view every man as a "potential" predator I would have agreed.  But she left out the word "potential" (maybe on accident, I don't know), which would place women in condition red, when they should be in orange in a potentially vulnerable situation.  Condition red, for clarification, is not responding by pulling the trigger (screaming, hitting, etc.) but it places your finger on the trigger.  "Red changes your focus from a potential threat to a potential target."

Quote

However, a woman should never be alone with a man she doesn't know well or feels the least uncomfortable with.  If you see that caution as being inappropriately cautious, I will disagree with you.

 

No, I agree.  The message that I heard (wether I misunderstood or not) was that we shouldn't place any burden on the women to protect herself, that men should have all the burden to protect women from other men.  

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Like Trump has saied, "it's only locker room talk". 

When I was in 5th grade a group of girls went to "old man Newton's" for candy. He was a prominant man at one time and LDS. We thought he was just being nice, turns out he tried to feel up girls legs and then exposed himself. I ran out of the house, and told him I was a boy, I had short hair. I'm thinking he had dementia now. But that made a huge impact on me to this day. 

When I lived in a trailer court with 4 young children my daughter who was three was touched inappropriately by her friend's dad, she told me even at that young age. I never would have thought this would happen. And in the same trailer court another older man tried stuff on the girls when they got off the bus from school, he'd have them reach in his pocket for candy. 

Two of my best friends were molested by step dads. I had a boss that tried to fondle me one night after work. My own sister in law was molested by her biological father. It's rampet, they say 1 out of 3 women have been sexually abused. I don't think it's too far off the mark. 

The big campaign of "Me Too" is on FB and I'm appauled by it all. Seeing young women commenting is the hardest for me because you'd think that in this day and age things would have gotten better. I guess not.

Wow...it seems to be all around us....women on this board have known and/or been acquainted on here for years....and yet...we are somewhat hiding in some unified silence...I am glad we are talking about this.  I kow that it has affected a lot of young boys/men here too.  This just isn't a church thing. it isn't an isolated male./female thing...it is a people thing that affects every corner of our world.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

My daughter, today, is having a meeting with supervisors....there is a man that follows her...everywhere..lunch ..breaks...it is not that he is being overly avert...just creepy..she is scared. 

This experience by your daughter brought another experience from my single days up. Somehow a man got my info from someone at my work or it was posted on the side somewhere by a cashier's station at a store. I came home from a date and there was a ladder that was leaning against my window. He'd been a peeping in my window and when he saw us pulling up apparently took off, I think it was him that would call me everyday and say horrible things until I called the police and the phone company. But it's no wonder I'm very insecure sometimes.

I've had harrasment from men I know such as my friend's step dad, who was a policeman, came up to me when I was a teller and said "you look good in bed, I mean red", I was wearing red. I was young and I just laughed it off, but never forgot it and how it made me feel. Wish someone had warned me of what was crossing the line back then.

Also, a few years ago my oldest daughter cleaned office buildings and a man came into the restroom while she was cleaning and assaulted her but luckily she got away. I have so many stories that I've heard from others too.

I'm sorry that your daughter is going through this, glad she is speaking with her supervisor, I hope that person takes it very seriously.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Pogi, how many people actually are victims of identity theft?

More than half of Americans now, thanks to Equifax!  They got my info and now I have the unfair burden of taking the precaution of locking my credit, which I still need to do.   Just last week (no joke) my credit card was used at 2 different Walmarts on $90 purchases that I never made.  My credit card company contacted me because they looked suspicious to them (not sure why they thought they were suspicious because they were Walmarts that I shop at), but they reimbursed me for the transactions.  I haven't seen the report of their investigation yet, but I suspect that my card was skimmed at a gas station.  It is a HUGE problem in Utah right now.  As if I wasn't feeling vulnerable enough, I just read this news article yesterday morning!  Now I have the burden to take more measures to protect myself.  These are only 3 scenarios of possible identity theft.  That is only a drop in the bucket.  The reality is that more Americans have their identity stolen than there are victims of sexual assault.  More than 1 in 2. 

2 hours ago, Calm said:

No one here is denying that wise parents teach their children to protect themselves.  But there is a difference when it turns out every woman I have talked to about this (except my daughter who has been more or less in social isolation since she was 12) has a story of inappropriate lines being crossed by some men she has encountered.  It is clear that the vast majority of people think identity theft is wrong and they don't participate in it.  It is not so clear that sexual harassment is frowned down upon with more than meaningless gestures given how widespread it is.  (I am not saying only meaningless gestures are being made, there are laws that have grown in protection of women...such as a husband can be jailed for raping his wife these days, just that there is still a lot that needs to be done including judges not publicly telling defendants they are good men that did a wrong thing or news reporting comments about how sad it is that a promising young man's life has been ruined even if he is being blamed for it given how it likely will haunt the young woman's life much more deeply).

Then I guess I misunderstood.

However, from purely anecdotal evidence, I have heard the message "sexual harassment/assault is wrong" far, far, far more in my life time than I have heard the message "identity theft is wrong".  I hear it at least annually at work, throughout school, church, parents, media, etc - hundreds of times in my life-time.  So, I don't think the problem is that boys don't get that it is frowned upon, for the most part.  The bigger problem is that many simply don't care for various and complicated reasons. 

I agree that more needs to be done and that harmful messages need to stop!

[The Nehor]

Okay, well, this is horrifying.

I have a friend I work out with in self defense and fitness classes. When we try escape techniques she always insists I not go easy on her so she knows she can escape if someone is really trying. Now I am just hoping there is not a story there.  

[pogi]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

I agree. But that wasn't my point. My point is that the entire burden can no longer be placed on women to prevent male violence. It has to be placed on males. 

I think we are completely misunderstanding each other than. Because that wasn't my point either.  I (and I assume Amulek) am not saying that all the burden should be placed on women, and if you are not saying that all the burden should be placed on men, then we are agreed.  This is the burden of all of humanity!

2 hours ago, juliann said:

And because the underlying message will change, women will be getting the message that they can't control or influence men by engaging in sexual behaviors.

Can you explain what you mean by that?  Thanks!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

More than half of Americans now, thanks to Equifax!  They got my info and now I have the unfair burden of taking the precaution of locking my credit, which I still need to do.   Just last week (no joke) my credit card was used at 2 different Walmarts on $90 purchases that I never made.  My credit card company contacted me because they looked suspicious to them (not sure why they thought they were suspicious because they were Walmarts that I shop at), but they reimbursed me for the transactions.  I haven't seen the report of their investigation yet, but I suspect that my card was skimmed at a gas station.  It is a HUGE problem in Utah right now.  As if I wasn't feeling vulnerable enough, I just read this news article yesterday morning!  Now I have the burden to take more measures to protect myself.  These are only 3 scenarios of possible identity theft.  That is only a drop in the bucket.  The reality is that more Americans have their identity stolen than there are victims of sexual assault.  More than 1 in 2. 

Then I guess I misunderstood.

However, from purely anecdotal evidence, I have heard the message "sexual harassment/assault is wrong" far, far, far more in my life time than I have heard the message "identity theft is wrong".  I hear it at least annually at work, throughout school, church, parents, media, etc - hundreds of times in my life-time.  So, I don't think the problem is that boys don't get that it is frowned upon, for the most part.  The bigger problem is that many simply don't care for various and complicated reasons. 

I agree that more needs to be done and that harmful messages need to stop!

Or they don't recognize what sexual harassment actually is.  I highly doubt any of the guys who proposed to me or gave me a gift before we knew each other except as fellow students who happened to be in the same room would have considered it harassment even though it was out of the blue with absolutely no reason besides me treating them as human beings for them to say such a thing to me.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This experience by your daughter brought another experience from my single days up. Somehow a man got my info from someone at my work or it was posted on the side somewhere by a cashier's station at a store. I came home from a date and there was a ladder that was leaning against my window. He'd been a peeping in my window and when he saw us pulling up apparently took off, I think it was him that would call me everyday and say horrible things until I called the police and the phone company. But it's no wonder I'm very insecure sometimes.

I've had harrasment from men I know such as my friend's step dad, who was a policeman, came up to me when I was a teller and said "you look good in bed, I mean red", I was wearing red. I was young and I just laughed it off, but never forgot it and how it made me feel. Wish someone had warned me of what was crossing the line back then.

Also, a few years ago my oldest daughter cleaned office buildings and a man came into the restroom while she was cleaning and assaulted her but luckily she got away. I have so many stories that I've heard from others too.

I'm sorry that your daughter is going through this, glad she is speaking with her supervisor, I hope that person takes it very seriously.

This reminded me about the disgusting prank phone calls I would sometimes get when I was a teenager (before caller ID). The real sick thing was that I grew up in a small town and so the guys calling me were guys I knew and interacted with. I just never knew which ones they were so I couldn’t stay away from them in person. 

So horrible women have to put up with this crap. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by bluebell

[Rain]

 

 

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Like Trump has saied, "it's only locker room talk". 

When I was in 5th grade a group of girls went to "old man Newton's" for candy. He was a prominant man at one time and LDS. We thought he was just being nice, turns out he tried to feel up girls legs and then exposed himself. I ran out of the house, and told him I was a boy, I had short hair. I'm thinking he had dementia now. But that made a huge impact on me to this day. 

When I lived in a trailer court with 4 young children my daughter who was three was touched inappropriately by her friend's dad, she told me even at that young age. I never would have thought this would happen. And in the same trailer court another older man tried stuff on the girls when they got off the bus from school, he'd have them reach in his pocket for candy. 

Two of my best friends were molested by step dads. I had a boss that tried to fondle me one night after work. My own sister in law was molested by her biological father. It's rampet, they say 1 out of 3 women have been sexually abused. I don't think it's too far off the mark. 

The big campaign of "Me Too" is on FB and I'm appauled by it all. Seeing young women commenting is the hardest for me because you'd think that in this day and age things would have gotten better. I guess not.

I think some knowledge has gotten better, but we've become hyper-sexual as a society so I think that pushes back against the knowledge. I'm glad you brought that point up because I think you are right -  things really should better.