Hearing from women who have been abused

[Calm]

1 minute ago, cacheman said:

It is frightening.  My daughter lives in another town,  so I worry.  Fortunately,  she has coworkers who walk her to her car.  They all keep an eye out for each other.  There have been several instances where police were called and the men permanently banned from the store. 

A student of my husband told him she was dropping out of school due to a stalker who had her class schedule and was waiting for her whenever she got out of class.  What was shocking to me was a woman adviser told her not to contact the police nor campus security to make a complaint and instead just drop out.  My husband suggested she call the police before putting her own life on hold and that he would support her, but she felt more comfortable not complaining, so he let it go.

I am not that socially connected and yet I still hear way too often offline about such abuse.  There are likely tons more stories of abuse I am not hearing.  That even women advisers were pushing victims to not report is very sad to me.  I only hope this was not her usual approach.

[bluebell]

Just now, pogi said:

It is sad that this is even an issue, but it is.  However, I do believe that it is excessive and unhealthy to "treat every man as a predator that means to do us harm".  You are right, that mentality has negative consequences and is unfair and dangerous to the sanity and well-being of women.  There is a better way.  We have to maintain some level of trust in men and humanity or else women will self-sabotage every relationship that they are ever in, living in a state of constant paranoia, incapable of healthy relationships with those of the opposite sex, incapable of trust. 

I recently took part in an active shooter training (required for government workers), I think it was an insightful and useful approach to life in general.  It is a color system for situational awareness.  What you are describing above is condition red, or even black.  I don't recommend that women be in condition red around all men, unless they want stomach ulcers and other health problems from living in chronic anxiety!  What I was suggesting is that women simply avoid condition white around men.  I think that condition yellow and orange are the most appropriate states of awareness most of the time.  

Here is a link for those interested:

https://www.policeone.com/police-trainers/articles/2188253-Coopers-colors-A-simple-system-for-situational-awareness/

I was speaking of a very specific situation:  when women are physically vulnerable and come in contact with males they don't know if they can trust.  

Dr. Phil once said that we don't owe people the benefit of the doubt and that women (and men but to a lesser amount usually) are often victimized because they are conditioned to give people the benefit of the doubt.  It's not good to teach our daughters to trust unproven men unless or until they are harmed by them.  That's not safe.     

In most situations it's reasonable for women to behave neutrally towards men they don't know they can trust, but when a woman is in a vulnerable situation with a man she doesn't know is safe, she needs to be wary and on her guard.

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

It is sad that this is even an issue, but it is.  However, I do believe that it is excessive and unhealthy to "treat every man as a predator that means to do us harm".  You are right, that mentality has negative consequences and is unfair and dangerous to the sanity and well-being of women.  There is a better way.  We have to maintain some level of trust in men and humanity or else women will self-sabotage every relationship that they are ever in, living in a state of constant paranoia, incapable of healthy relationships with those of the opposite sex, incapable of trust. 

I recently took part in an active shooter training (required for government workers), I think it was an insightful and useful approach to life in general.  It is a color system for situational awareness.  What you are describing above is condition red, or even black.  I don't recommend that women be in condition red around all men, unless they want stomach ulcers and other health problems from living in chronic anxiety!  What I was suggesting is that women simply avoid condition white around men.  I think that condition yellow and orange are the most appropriate states of awareness most of the time.  

Here is a link for those interested:

https://www.policeone.com/police-trainers/articles/2188253-Coopers-colors-A-simple-system-for-situational-awareness/

I don't think that is what is being described, we all live our lives either with men or around men we trust. But women live in a constant state of assessment. Most of the men we run into are strangers. You likely have had a few experiences where you have felt concern or fear and quickened your steps but don't live with the everyday necessity. You likely don't fear being out alone after dark or walk to your car with your keys positioned as a weapon. What happens is that we need men to protect us from men because violence is statistically a very male problem. 

[Calm]

Pogi, if orange means immediately leave or otherwise get out of any situation that you feel is not safe or has the potential to be not safe, I would agree that women don't need to be in red all the time.  Red would be reacting to a real threat, such as screaming, hitting, etc. not a potential one.  However, a woman should never be alone with a man she doesn't know well or feels the least uncomfortable with.  If you see that caution as being inappropriately cautious, I will disagree with you.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was speaking of a very specific situation:  when women are physically vulnerable and come in contact with males they don't know if they can trust.  

Dr. Phil once said that we don't owe people the benefit of the doubt and that women (and men but to a lesser amount usually) are often victimized because they are conditioned to give people the benefit of the doubt.  It's not good to teach our daughters to trust unproven men unless or until they are harmed by them.  That's not safe.     

In most situations it's reasonable for women to behave neutrally towards men they don't know they can trust, but when a woman is in a vulnerable situation with a man she doesn't know is safe, she needs to be wary and on her guard.

ah yes, I think one characteristic of some men who prey on women is they like to act sweet, and vulnerable in some sense to gain the woman's trust.  This, of course, is not awesome because some men promote themselves as sweet and vulnerable because they really like to be nice to people.  Some other men like to act composed, smart and capable, so the women feel like he has it together and all that.  If there ever is a good illustration of a wolf in sheep's clothing it's the predators out there.  I do think I heard one of the ladies in the Weinstein thing say they trusted him and saw him as "uncle Harvey"; well until she went to his room.  Worse yet, he probably sees himself as a nice guy who made a few mistakes here or there. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

ah yes, I think one characteristic of some men who prey on women is they like to act sweet, and vulnerable in some sense to gain the woman's trust.  This, of course, is not awesome because some men promote themselves as sweet and vulnerable because they really like to be nice to people.  Some other men like to act composed, smart and capable, so the women feel like he has it together and all that.  If there ever is a good illustration of a wolf in sheep's clothing it's the predators out there.  I do think I heard one of the ladies in the Weinstein thing say they trusted him and saw him as "uncle Harvey"; well until she went to his room.  Worse yet, he probably sees himself as a nice guy who made a few mistakes here or there. 

Probably very true.  

[juliann]

17 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I spoke up in ward council about the need to add to the standard chastity lesson the need to discuss sexual assault at a youth standards night. The discussion needs to happen and I think it is time to define inappropriate behavior for young women and young men. One person did express he knew of a young men in legal problems due to inapropriate advances who wished someone had warned him. 

There are young men who are predators in wards. We are not doing them favors by not explaining bluntly the consequences of aggressive, coercive, sexual behaviors. If they inherently know not to be rapists...why do I know so many victims?

I so hope they have stopped having boys talk about girl's modesty. I will never forget that horrid Alex Boye' song (normally like his stuff) with a bunch of them singing how much they "needed" their modesty. How the real message has been completely overlooked all this time bewilders me. Boys have been given the approved message that they can't control themselves without women covering themselves up for them. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, juliann said:

I so hope they have stopped having boys talk about girl's modesty. I will never forget that horrid Alex Boye' song (normally like his stuff) with a bunch of them singing how much they "needed" their modesty. How the real message has been completely overlooked all this time bewilders me. Boys have been given the approved message that they can't control themselves without women covering themselves up for them. 

That kind of a focus also teaches men that they have the right to police women and girls because they are being negatively affected by the clothing choices women and girls make.  With that kind of a background it makes sense that we end up with some men writing demeaning notes to women on LDS campuses declaring how they should be ashamed for wearing regular clothes.

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

I so hope they have stopped having boys talk about girl's modesty. I will never forget that horrid Alex Boye' song (normally like his stuff) with a bunch of them singing how much they "needed" their modesty. How the real message has been completely overlooked all this time bewilders me. Boys have been given the approved message that they can't control themselves without women covering themselves up for them. 

All I can say...I have seen a lot of progress from Priesthood leadership on this front but woman have to speak up and express concerns and also teach against the faulty object lessons. Teach the young women the analogies are not in line with gospel teaching and do not properly teach the atonement. I subbed in a youth sunday school class and the lesson was being given by a youth about chastity. I had just read an article that discussed the nails in the board analogy and how Elder Holland explained--you get a whole new board through the atonement. There are no holes left. I was able to share this and at a standards night that night--that included a poorly thought out object lesson, this young women refuted the object lesson. Because she spoke up, the Priesthood leader teaching realized the harm that the object lesson could inflict and later apologized to the youth. Speak up--be heard--refute past faulty thinking and lessons! Progress can be made! 

[Amulek]

34 minutes ago, juliann said:

50 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I completely agree. I think the problem is not that we advise women (especially young women) that they need to learn how to protect themselves and avoid potentially unsafe situations - that is imminently good advice, and I believe there would be real, serious costs if we were to never talk about those realities. The problem, I think, is that this kind of advice (e.g., Do X to avoid being victimized) can sometimes be seen as carrying an unstated, implicit message (e.g., You didn't do X, and you were victimized, so you were foolish). 

As such, we have to be careful about how we say such things. The way I usually phrase it when speaking with my daughter is that it is a shame that we have to be wary of such things, but it's prudent to take these risks into account when making decisions. 

In a perfect world, none of this would be a problem. Unfortunately, that isn't the world we happen to live in.

Here is the problem with that. It places the burden on the women. [...]

I know. It’s unfortunate; it’s unfair. I wish the world were different, and I try to do my part to make the world different.

But when it comes to my daughter, I won’t allow my ideas about how the world should be to interfere with teaching her how to navigate the world as it exists today.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I know. It’s unfortunate; it’s unfair. I wish the world were different, and I try to do my part to make the world different.

But when it comes to my daughter, I won’t allow my ideas about how the world should be to interfere with teaching her how to navigate the world as it exists today.

If it is approached as we (men and women) learn to lock our doors, close curtains, put up alarms so that criminals don't think it is safe to attack us, I am okay with teaching such measures.  If it becomes 'you need to help the males control their thoughts', I have problems with it.

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

And "all men" need to stop thinking that being a good guy in your own life bubble  is enough anymore. The only reason these predators get away with this is because they aren't being stopped or shamed by good men. I am not giving the female Hollywood A listers who had the power and prestige to nail some of these Hollywood guys a pass....they chose to wait until other women spoke up and even then hemmed and hawed that they didn't know what everyone else was saying was an open secret. 

It would be a different world if every good man swarmed the cat callers, or showed disgust at every demeaning sexist comment at work. What I see, however, is what I see on this board. Good men who refuse to even listen to what a growing number of women on this board are telling them. Or even allowing women to have a discussion without demanding that they be seen as the victim if their male supremacist ideas aren't adopted. The world has changed and is changing even more. It isn't just the women who have to adapt anymore. 

 

 

1 hour ago, juliann said:

And "all men" need to stop thinking that being a good guy in your own life bubble  is enough anymore. The only reason these predators get away with this is because they aren't being stopped or shamed by good men. I am not giving the female Hollywood A listers who had the power and prestige to nail some of these Hollywood guys a pass....they chose to wait until other women spoke up and even then hemmed and hawed that they didn't know what everyone else was saying was an open secret. 

It would be a different world if every good man swarmed the cat callers, or showed disgust at every demeaning sexist comment at work. What I see, however, is what I see on this board. Good men who refuse to even listen to what a growing number of women on this board are telling them. Or even allowing women to have a discussion without demanding that they be seen as the victim if their male supremacist ideas aren't adopted. The world has changed and is changing even more. It isn't just the women who have to adapt anymore. 

 

would whittling around them with large knives be effective?

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Avatar4321 said:

 

would whittling around them with large knives be effective?

Wouldn't hurt to try  

[Senator]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That kind of a focus also teaches men that they have the right to police women and girls because they are being negatively affected by the clothing choices women and girls make.  With that kind of a background it makes sense that we end up with some men writing demeaning notes to women on LDS campuses declaring how they should be ashamed for wearing regular clothes.

Do men have a right to express that they can, and are being affected by the clothing choices women and girls make?

[Gray]

My cousin had an abusive ex-husband, who she divorced. One day he came back to her house and killed her, then himself.

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

 

would whittling around them with large knives be effective?

Words are often more effective than knives. Some of the things said to or about women on this little forum are appalling. When women object, the perps argue. They are much more likely to take a step back if men who take women at their word when it comes to the female experience were providing the checks and balances. 

[The Nehor]

The problem is that the idea that modesty helps others control themselves and is kind and helpful to others (true) somehow translates to far too many that failure to do so indicates culpability. The moral equivalent of justifying a victim deserves some of the blame when they are physically beaten because they did not say please and thank you.

Such a sad cultural state we are in.  

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by The Nehor

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Senator said:

Do men have a right to express that they can, and are being affected by the clothing choices women and girls make?

If they know the woman sufficiently, they can share that they have a personal issue as opposed to it being the woman's problem..  I have an acquaintance who shared with the group we were talking with that he was gay and that he had a problem pictures of topless guys that were currently being passed around (iirc, the conversation was sports oriented and some shirts/skin games were being shown).  No one would have ever considered showing topless women.  He expressed his understanding that people had no reason before then to anticipate his need not to have such pictures if he was to stay on the list, but he was choosing to share with us instead of quietly leaving.  I think something similar would work with a woman one was already friends with.

If they don't know the woman, it will come across most likely as a blaming situation.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Senator said:

Do men have a right to express that they can, and are being affected by the clothing choices women and girls make?

In the right forum and in the right context avoiding specific complaints about specific people? Sure, that might be okay.

Writing an anonymous creepy note to a woman about how horny her clothing choices make you and trying to clothe your complaint in pseudoholiness with a facile religious judgement thrown in is not an appropriate way.

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Senator said:

Do men have a right to express that they can, and are being affected by the clothing choices women and girls make?

Of course. But you should always include the fact that women are affected by the clothing choices of boys and men. They are, they are just expected to handle it on their own. That is the only difference so the question needs to be why the idea that men can't be expected to control their urges has persisted into the modern age. 

The problem isn't the admission, it is what underlies it. I'm affected by bad language but so what? The world isn't going to change for me, all I can do is move away from people and choose what movies and music I use. Most of all, I don't use my reaction as an excuse to physically invade the speakers' space. I just deal with it. Not a perfect analogy but....

 

[juliann]

10 minutes ago, Gray said:

My cousin had an abusive ex-husband, who she divorced. One day he came back to her house and killed her, then himself.

Oh my gosh. That must be so hard for you.

[The Nehor]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

If it is approached as we (men and women) learn to lock our doors, close curtains, put up alarms so that criminals don't think it is safe to attack us, I am okay with teaching such measures.  If it becomes 'you need to help the males control their thoughts', I have problems with it.

Also, this is the kind of conversation you have with your kids or a naive friend before an assault happens in a spirit of genuine concern and worrying about their safety. Yet inevitably creeps show up in articles or discussions or even in person after an assault or rape and starts talking about how it could have been prevented which is why it comes across as blaming the victim (because it is). NOT THE TIME!

Edited October 17, 2017 by The Nehor

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Of course. But you should always include the fact that women are affected by the clothing choices of boys and men. They are, they are just expected to handle it on their own. That is the only difference so the question needs to be why the idea that men can't be expected to control their urges has persisted into the modern age. 

The problem isn't the admission, it is what underlies it. I'm affected by bad language but so what? The world isn't going to change for me, all I can do is move away from people and choose what movies and music I use. Most of all, I don't use my reaction as an excuse to physically invade the speakers' space. I just deal with it. Not a perfect analogy but....

 

Seriously, every time I drive to my mom's by BYU, I am coming across beautiful young men with well cared for bodies with only shorts on.  Takes a moment to make my brain change gears.  It is bizarre to me that there is little to no recognition around here that women can have lustful thoughts.  Or maybe guys are just aware that women can't act on those impulses in the same way some criminally inclined men can...unless they have a gun.  

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Seriously, every time I drive to my mom's by BYU, I am coming across beautiful young men with well cared for bodies with only shorts on.  Takes a moment to make my brain change gears.  It is bizarre to me that there is little to no recognition around here that women can have lustful thoughts.  Or maybe guys are just aware that women can't act on those impulses in the same way some criminally inclined men can...unless they have a gun.  

It is interesting that we can openly talk about how appealing uniforms are to women without ever thinking we need to tell men to stop wearing them.

[Gray]

23 minutes ago, juliann said:

Oh my gosh. That must be so hard for you.

I didn't know her, but I still cried for her. I am good friends with her sister, and she was absolutely devastated - I can't imagine.