Hearing from women who have been abused

[MorningStar]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

This is a really important point. I see this teaching my own children about what jokes are appropriate or not. If people aren't taught they will make bad judgments. It's not an issue of intents - I'm sure often harassment (and not just sexual harassment) is intended as good fun. Many people simply aren't taught well, for whatever reason. This is especially true during teenage years when let's be honest few of either sex are typically making good judgments.

Again I think the system is rough for getting people to act charitably. Most men are pretty ignorant of how women feel in these situations. Worse, largely ignorant men are put in the situation where often there's really no good way to get to know women to ask them out. Culture puts almost all the onus of initiating dating on men. Some who have a very high social IQ can do this in non-threatening suave ways. Most don't have that skill and frequently don't have many women in their circle of friends. So guys more or less are incentivized to be in a situation where they have to approach strangers to date. It really sucks for women who, for whatever reason, don't want to be approached. It sucks for men who are getting shot down, often shattering their confidence when they already are far out of their comfort zone. Then you have the very clueless or worse, embittered or angry, who feel like they need to approach strangers leading to lots of unfortunate events. I really wish that socially we had a very different way of dating.

Just remembering the whole dating scene makes me very glad I'm not in it anymore. I'd be shocked if I didn't make some women uncomfortable in my own past. Certainly I can think of things that unintentionally went amiss - most often due to ignorance and incompetence on my part. Further the worst part of it all is that you only get good by practicing. Typically that involves trial and error. Which entails of course women getting stuck with the error part. About the only consolation one can give is that none of this is pleasant for men either. Further, without in the least disparaging the focus on women here since they without doubt suffer the most, men get sexually harassed as well. Indeed there's a weird cultural assumption that women can do to men things that men would be arrested for. I've had my crotch grabbed by women numerous times. A friend in his mid 20's had an older woman (in her 50's) grab him and lick his face. I've even had gay men grab me quite a few times. And when you shoot them down, these women would often get pretty angry. Again, not downplaying the experiences of any woman here. Likewise the social setting we find ourselves in tends to mean men just view such things differently due to less fear and more confidence for various reasons. But just thinking how often it's happened to me, with huge social incentives against women being the aggressor make me appreciate how horrible it must be for the typical woman who experiences all this far more regularly.

I think the most important thing a guy can do is get involved in something.  Anything.  There should be interaction with women before jumping to asking them out.  When guys approach random women in weird places, they come across as someone who doesn't do anything that involves meeting and getting to know women.  Years ago a guy asked me from across the parking lot in the dark if I knew the way to Kmart.  I should have just kept walking, but girls are supposed to be "nice", so I said, "Sorry, no." instead of ignoring him.  That opened the door for him to run over to me.  He said, "Do you want to buy some magazines?"  Told him I wasn't interested and then he said, "When are you taking me out?"  "I'm not."  "I'll take you out then. We'll go to Taco Bell."  "I hate Taco Bell."  I don't know how I finally got away from him, but I was on break from work.  I ran into the Fred Meyer where I saw a teacher from school and begged her to drive me back to work.  I didn't want him to see where I was going.  

He showed up at my work the next day.  I hid in the back while my manager got rid of him.  Weeks later, I was told about a magazine salesman who went into Baskin Robbins and asked a girl out.  She said no and he spat in her face. For a guy to say hi to me in the dark from behind, I will ignore that kind of thing every time now because who knows what he wants?  

Oh, I totally forgot about the ex-pimp/ex-drug dealer who cornered me and my cousin in the back of the bus and wouldn't stop kissing our hands.  I didn't ride the bus again for well over a decade.  

[Avatar4321]

Couple of comments

How much do you think the pornography plague effects this problem in our culture?

I don't think this is about blaming all men as much as it is about making a widespread problem aware to public. Don't take it personally. Especially if you aren't the problem.

[Duncan]

This is one of my Fave shows besides Night Court but I think it highlights the different kinds of men out there, people who do something and people who say something

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Couple of comments

How much do you think the pornography plague effects this problem in our culture?

I don't think this is about blaming all men as much as it is about making a widespread problem aware to public. Don't take it personally. Especially if you aren't the problem.

I think that porn is a major contributor of sexual assault and harassment.  

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Couple of comments

How much do you think the pornography plague effects this problem in our culture?

I don't think this is about blaming all men as much as it is about making a widespread problem aware to public. Don't take it personally. Especially if you aren't the problem.

It may help remove boundaries.  Certainly does not model appropriate contact skills.

I was watching a romantic thriller last night, Korean.  They have some cultural differences, it is considered highly romantic for a guy to grab a woman by the wrist where the only way she can make him let go is to struggle and twist her arm if his grip is firm.  It is not at all about reciprocity.  Also backing a woman up against the wall and placing arms on both sides, essentially caging her in unless she ducks under...that is seen as romantic and protective.  And you could pay to have a good looking celebrity do it to you and get your picture taken a few years ago.

 Our movies have some of guys using physical force to break through the woman's 'standoffishness', especially older ones.  Of course, she really wants those barriers to come down so she can freely express her sexuality or womanliness in older films, Iow be dominated by A Real Man.  Our movie culture is definitely not helping.  Equality comes across more now in terms of a woman can beat up a guy as well as a guy her rather than learning to respect boundaries.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[pogi]

9 hours ago, juliann said:

Women need men doing what you are doing until all men realize they are going to have to step back and allow women to express themselves openly. 

What you guys are doing by bravely speaking out and sharing your experiences will likely have the most impact in the long run on men.  The more you speak out, the more men will hear you and understand your perspective and the impact of their actions.  Change will slowly come about with a persistent and united voice and message from women. Your voices and your stories are your greatest tools for change in society on this matter. 

Women have been silenced out of fear, threat, intimidation, dismissiveness, false blame, not knowing what to say or do, or who to tell, etc. etc. etc., but all that is slowly starting to change because women are taking the initiative.  When women take the initiative in this matter, change will happen.   To place the burden on men to change first before women feel safe to speak up is simply placing the power in men's hands - in other words, nothing will change, or it will be too slow!

While men are fully culpable for their actions, and while women are not responsible for men's behavior, doing and saying nothing teaches men that they can get away with it. By not making a big deal out of it, teaches men that it is not a big deal to you.  By doing and saying nothing, "your inaction is speaking for you" (as Dr. Phil would say).  I agree that men should just get it, but many obviously don't!

I am proud of all of you for speaking up!  

 

 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

It may help remove boundaries.  Certainly does not model appropriate contact skills.

I was watching a romantic thriller last night, Korean.  They have some cultural differences, it is considered highly romantic for a guy to grab a woman by the wrist where the only way she can make him let go is to struggle and twist her arm if his grip is firm.  It is not at all about reciprocity.  Also backing a woman up against the wall and placing arms on both sides, essentially caging her in unless she ducks under...that is seen as romantic and protective.  And you could pay to have a good looking celebrity do it to you and get your picture taken a few years ago.

 Our movies have some of guys using physical force to break through the woman's 'standoffishness', especially older ones.  Of course, she really wants those barriers to come down so she can freely express her sexuality or womanliness in older films, Iow be dominated by A Real Man.  Our movie culture is definitely not helping.  Equality comes across more of now a woman can beat up a guy as well as a guy her rather than learning to respect boundaries.

I think it also models women as purely sexual objects that exist to satisfy the needs of men.  Young men can't watch that kind of behavior modeled 100s or 1000s of times as their brain's mature and not have it warp their view of women and sex.

[Gray]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Our movies have some of guys using physical force to break through the woman's 'standoffishness', especially older ones.  Of course, she really wants those barriers to come down so she can freely express her sexuality or womanliness in older films, Iow be dominated by A Real Man.  Our movie culture is definitely not helping.  Equality comes across more now in terms of a woman can beat up a guy as well as a guy her rather than learning to respect boundaries.

Oh yeah, a LOT of older movies have "romantic" encounters that look really rapey. Like especially from the '50s-'80s.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Gray

[Nofear]

An interesting article from Scientific American: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

Quote

In 2014, we published a study on the sexual victimization of men, finding that men were much more likely to be victims of sexual abuse than was thought. To understand who was committing the abuse, we next analyzed four surveys conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to glean an overall picture of how frequently women were committing sexual victimization.

The results were surprising. For example, the CDC’s nationally representative data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators.

 

[clarkgoble]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

Oh yeah, a LOT of older movies have "romantic" encounters that look really rapey. Like especially from the '50s-'80s.

Yup I watched Blade Runner the other day in preparation for the new film and boy that encounter with Rachel sure wasn't how I remembered it. Watching the Connery Bond films is pretty disturbing too. Go back to the 30's through 50's and wow. And those were the days when sex was supposed to not be as blatant. But what is there is often worse than what we see in the last 20 years in many ways. Worse yet, think about what messages Hollywood was communicating to men about how to approach women and vice versa.

 

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think it also models women as purely sexual objects that exist to satisfy the needs of men.  Young men can't watch that kind of behavior modeled 100s or 1000s of times as their brain's mature and not have it warp their view of women and sex.

I'm not sure Hollywood movies always presents women as purely sexual objects. Although heaven knows that happens. But they sure do affect how people think appropriate behavior is. Not just men either. You have women learning from Hollywood that they have to play hard to get as part of a game. I knew lots of women when I was young who'd internalized that. We have a very warped and arguably destructive culture of dating. Throw alcohol and drugs into the mix and it's a recipe for abuse whether intended or not. While I think the term "rape culture" gets thrown around a bit too freely and ambiguously, there are very real ways in which our society ends up pushing activities that lead to sexual harassment or worse.

 

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

It may help remove boundaries.  Certainly does not model appropriate contact skills.

It changes expectations as well. Although honestly I think the biggest problem for culture is removing the need for interaction. The rate of sexual activity has been dropping. Marriage has been dropping. If you stop and think about how, in my era, it was so bad for both men and women to date it's hardly surprising many don't bother. Now you have women completely justifiably standing up for what are intimidating actions by men. But men in turn really have little idea what to do instead. What was once always outside of ones comfort zone now has even more risks associated with it. Many women, especially in media roles, understandably aren't sympathetic given that the risks are still less than what women were dealing with. However model it from the other perspective. Why would a man for whom approach women is already scary and hard, want to deal with even more issues where if they make a mistake (when most don't know what they're doing) they might get labeled a sexual harasser or worse? Especially when, for non-members, there are somewhat socially acceptable alternatives.

Someone once said it's interesting looking at what conference talks warn about from 20 - 25 years earlier and then seeing what's going on in society. I think we're in a period of strong social upheaval that rivals or may even exceed the 1960's. The unhappy social situation so many are finding themselves in is the consequence for social choices made the prior decades. 

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

I think the most important thing a guy can do is get involved in something.  Anything.  There should be interaction with women before jumping to asking them out.  When guys approach random women in weird places, they come across as someone who doesn't do anything that involves meeting and getting to know women. 

Oh I agree in general. In practice though that's harder said than done. I got married relatively late in my 30's and the difference once I hit my late 20's was staggering. I literally didn't encounter many women at all outside of church. And if you didn't like the women in your ward (say because you're in your late 20's and most of them are 18-23) that pretty well means no social life. There's dating apps of course, but while I only tried them when things were getting started in around 2000, by and large they really sucked. Plus honestly it's the same situation just giving a bit more control to women by forcing them to put themselves "out there" on the dating app. Maybe they're better now but I don't hear a lot of positive things about them.

By and large my choice was to just let women make the first move. They start flirting and I'd flirt back. But being realistic, especially for people in many locations, that's pretty well damning people to a non-existing social life. It also requires you to pretty well be in top physical shape so some women will hit on you in gas stations, gymns and the like. If you're not then you'll be ignored. (Again that's the reality) Don't get me wrong I completely get what you're saying. I just think we ought realize the implications of that especially to the typical average guy. Most women don't make first moves due to how we've all been socialized. Many men don't like women making the first move (again because of socialization). And women who are confident enough to even put themselves out of their comfort zone to make the first move will get to face the same things men face with rejection making it less likely they'll do it again.

As I said, dating sucks at the best of times. Worse is that often by the time you start catching a clue about socially what's going on you've graduated and just aren't meeting people anymore. There's of course work, but hopefully it goes without saying that the dangers there are magnitudes higher.

 

 

 

[Calm]

on other thread

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

"Watching the Connery Bond films is pretty disturbing too"

Especially knowing the actor was okay with slapping a woman, especially to shut her up. (Barbara Walters interview)

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm not sure Hollywood movies always presents women as purely sexual objects. Although heaven knows that happens. But they sure do affect how people think appropriate behavior is. Not just men either. You have women learning from Hollywood that they have to play hard to get as part of a game. I knew lots of women when I was young who'd internalized that. We have a very warped and arguably destructive culture of dating. Throw alcohol and drugs into the mix and it's a recipe for abuse whether intended or not. While I think the term "rape culture" gets thrown around a bit too freely and ambiguously, there are very real ways in which our society ends up pushing activities that lead to sexual harassment or worse.

 

I don't think they do either.  I was speaking specifically about porn.  Though some hollywood movies certainly come close sometimes to that label, I don't consider an R rated movie to be pornography in general. 

But I agree that Hollywood and it's portrayal of relationships between men and women is part of the problem (probably a large part).  Most romantic comedies, for example, have beloved characters doing things that are rapey or stalker-ish when pursuing their dream guy or girl and the audience is taught to root for them, and that it's o.k. because the guy or girl is a really nice person and the pursued mate should love them, even if they don't realize it yet.

I think that a lot of the inappropriate behavior that we hear about on the dating scene is caused by those kinds of movies.

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've been hooked on watching "The Office", but some things they say on there aren't good at all for not harrassing women. The men or women too I guess, are terrible sometimes.

I could never understand why the writers of that show seemed to think the audience would see Michael Scott as a sympathetic character.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Couple of comments

How much do you think the pornography plague effects this problem in our culture?

I don't think this is about blaming all men as much as it is about making a widespread problem aware to public. Don't take it personally. Especially if you aren't the problem.

There are way too many guys out there who spend more time interacting with porn then they do actual girls/women. This has always been the case with some but it’s availability is warping guys....particularly teens.

[The Nehor]

Also, I apologize to anyone I offended in this thread. I was cranky yesterday.

[Nofear]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Men definitely need to get comfortable talking about it, but given how culture is dismissive of such things, portrays men as lucky if they attract attention if the woman is beautiful or comical if she is not, it must be very difficult to be open about.

They probably get less instruction in safety measures as well.

Indeed so. But the thread's OP is a different purpose (and I don't want my comments to derail the thread). The rape study and the video below is mostly just an FYI to suggest that while there is definitely asymmetry in sexual misconduct between the genders, it might not be quite as disparate as many might first suppose. Though, such a thought does very little to comfort the victims, be they women or men.
 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Nofear

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Indeed so. But the thread's OP is a different purpose. The rape study and the video below is mostly just an FYI to suggest that while there is definitely asymmetry in sexual misconduct between the genders, it might not be quite as disparate as many might first suppose. Though, such a thought does very little to comfort the victims, be they women or men.

 

I think the video proves the opposite, actually.  A man has physical power over a woman. And that is evident in the tape where he dominates the woman, traps her,  and she even says he is hurting her. With the woman, the man remains in control, literally pushing her away or moving away. That is why no one is helping, he isn't in trouble. This is the problem with trying to compare male and female abuse. I'm also quite sure he isn't afraid she will be coming to his house that night to put him in the hospital. There will always be exceptions, of course. The other thing that must be included are the stats for injury. It will be far greater for females. 

That is why these comparisons fall flat, IMO. It doesn't mean assaults on males aren't important, it just is a topic of its own. 

[Calm]

Off topic

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[clarkgoble]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

Men definitely need to get comfortable talking about it, but given how culture is dismissive of such things, portrays men as lucky if they attract attention if the woman is beautiful or comical if she is not, it must be very difficult to be open about.

They probably get less instruction in safety measures as well.

You see that especially with statutory rape where the perception is any underage girl doesn't want attention and any underage male does want it and is lucky. That's starting to change after numerous high profile rape convictions of women. But the social distinction remains.

That was an interesting article. I was especially surprised to see so many men had been violently raped by women. As I mentioned earlier, there's a huge double standard. I can just think of things that have happened to me that would definitely be considered rape or attempted rape if the genders were swapped. I got mad but just blew it off. But it highlights the different socialization and expectations at play. Don't get me wrong, being able to just blow it off is far, far healthier I think. Yet the practices themselves should really be brought out in the light much more.

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I could never understand why the writers of that show seemed to think the audience would see Michael Scott as a sympathetic character.

In the British version he's not. I think what happened is in the US version our cultural focus on intentionality tended to see him as well meaning yet so utterly clueless he was offensive. They also made him fairly upbeat, owing a lot to the actor playing him. Yet the character gets treated horribly in the show, experiencing himself pretty egregious sexual abuse by his former boss for laughs. I was pretty shocked in the later seasons just how horrifically they treated him.

52 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think they do either.  I was speaking specifically about porn.  Though some hollywood movies certainly come close sometimes to that label, I don't consider an R rated movie to be pornography in general. 

Oh, yeah. Sorry for misreading you. I don't have much of an opinion on that although I'd assume not only porn but things like the supermodel phenomena for guys (which I assume is still a thing since they still have the Swimsuit Edition of SI) where it's all about physical appearance and nothing else. I bet most guys still tie sexual attraction to much more than appearance. I don't know if you saw the latest Blade Runner but that topic of objectification is a huge theme. The hero is a replicant, and thus treated just as an object even though clearly he's more than that. His 'girlfriend' is a clearly pornographic oriented hologram that's become much more because of how he treats her. But what I found striking is that the 'objectification' of the programming was much more about behavior and being seen as valuable rather than sex proper. 

[The Nehor]

Men generally do not find female sexual aggressiveness to be threatening. I have bee groped, pinched, etc. quite a few times in my life (often on my mission) and I never felt threatened. Usually it was just a funny story to tell the other companionship in the house when we got home. A few times it felt skeevy and was weird but not really threatening. Usually it was just flattering. I think this is the norm. Again the Onion describes the situation best:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.theonion.com/amp/1012

Now there are cases that are actually abusive or scary (stalking for example) but they are rare.

[Calm]

In other thread

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

". That is why no one is helping, he isn't in trouble."

A black eye is a black eye.  There may be nonphysical reasons the guy is impotent to remove himself from harm.  He could be mentally or emotionally disabled.

What black eye? The woman was merely flailing at him while he moved around. She didn't get in his face.  He never looked overpowered. In the other example, the woman was pinned down, his nose was to her nose, he was aggressively in her space. It felt like a set up, they provide a situation of man being annoyed by an obnoxious woman who can't even throw a punch, he is able to get up and walk around and they use that to make a case that no one stops. Of course they didn't. He could have overpowered her in a minute had he wanted to.  It was ridiculously phony. They should have used the same behaviors that were shown against the woman in the first clip to make any kind of comparison. Probably the most telling is that even then, the larger man would have had to be shown as unable to remove himself or disabled to get anyone's attention. 

[Nofear]

13 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think the video proves the opposite, actually.  A man has physical power over a woman. And that is evident in the tape where he dominates the woman, traps her,  and she even says he is hurting her. With the woman, the man remains in control, literally pushing her away or moving away. That is why no one is helping, he isn't in trouble. This is the problem with trying to compare male and female abuse. I'm also quite sure he isn't afraid she will be coming to his house that night to put him in the hospital. There will always be exceptions, of course. The other thing that must be included are the stats for injury. It will be far greater for females. 

That is why these comparisons fall flat, IMO. It doesn't mean assaults on males aren't important, it just is a topic of its own. 

I agree that there are definitely asymmetries involved and societal mores can be expected to reasonably reflect those. And because of those asymmetries we can't, nor should, make a 1:1 comparison (and some might want to). But, I don't think we should we make a 0:1 comparison either (I'm not suggesting that's what you implied). Still, not the topic of the thread and I don't want to derail it with "but men are victims too" comments. I mostly posted the two items as an fyi that can be there to inform as the interlocutor deems appropriate. I was surprised by the rape statistic. I thought others would be interested to know too (but not enough for a whole thread).