Hearing from women who have been abused

[Tacenda]

I've been hooked on watching "The Office", but some things they say on there aren't good at all for not harrassing women. The men or women too I guess, are terrible sometimes. Even things my own husband says I've cracked down on today. Oh well, but I'm glad we're talking about these things. I wish I had told my parents/mom all that I went through with some of it. But women keep so much to themselves, sometimes as if it's our fault or that we are to blame for others actions. Or that we aren't worth worrying over. 

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've been hooked on watching "The Office", but some things they say on there aren't good at all for not harrassing women. The men or women too I guess, are terrible sometimes. Even things my own husband says I've cracked down on today. Oh well, but I'm glad we're talking about these things. I wish I had told my parents/mom all that I went through with some of it. But women keep so much to themselves, sometimes as if it's our fault or that we are to blame for others actions. Or that we aren't worth worrying over. 

You are worth it Tacenda.

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, Senator said:

Do men have a right to express that they can, and are being affected by the clothing choices women and girls make?

They can express it, they just can't assume that it's women and girls who should fix it. I've had several people who were sexually triggered by me in office. The first time it happened the person mentioned my clothing choice. I had a minute where I really thought about changing my outfits on certain days to "make it easier." But when I thought about it, really thought about it....I realized making it easier didn't necessarily help the person struggling to learn to control their sexual desires. That was something they had to learn from themselves. The longer I've gone the more I've realized that when someone feels like the sexual desires and fantasies are running them uncontrollably, it has absolutely nothing to do with me and everything to do with their mental states. They need to grow, work through their hang ups, and change...not me. 

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

No, I can accept that.  What I find problematic is the normalization/rationalization of an inherently irrational belief.

I have a few instances of friends (males) who have had a horrible experiences with girlfriends or wives, and who have then extrapolated that experience into bigoted characterizations of all women (that they all cheat, that they are only interested in taking your money, etc.).  I get that their personal/individual experiences have been horrible, but indulging them in their extrapolated hatred / suspicion / contempt of all women for the actions of one (or few) never crossed my mind.  I cannot comprehend a situation in which I would say something like "Okay, dude, so your recent experience in getting divorced has made you hate and be suspicious of all women everywhere?  Sure!  That's a good and healthy perspective!  Keep at it!  In fact, let's get you together with other men who feel the same way, 'cuz multiplying public expressions of falsehoods about women is cathartic!"

Yes, that is possible.

-Smac

Smac, what I find frustrating about this, isn't even how wrong you are on this. I wish I could make you take my clients with PTSD, anxiety, panic disorders, and depression who've been raped, assualted, coerced, and/or abused. Have you listen to hours and hours and hours of the same dam story over and over again. The patterns are so clear with many of them that I can tell their story for them with little change beyond their face. To have to go and work through the hours and hours and hours and hours more of therapy that it takes to restore the lost parts of their souls. The LONG process it takes for them to learn to trust men again after the 3rd predator in their life has sucked them dry. The painful walk of helping them name what happened to them....to help them know what wasn't their fault (they very rarely jump to blaming the perp. They're more likely to blame themselves). The rage that flows in you as few of these get prosecuted, victim-blaming abounds, and shame is confused as guilt by leaders parents and loved ones...and then using that rage to fight against what seems like fated helplessness due to an ill-equipped, ill-informed, and perp-enabling society. And finally to help the ones stuck in perpetual poor relational decisions get out one hard step at a time.

I wish you could because at that point I would really hope you'd finally hear us women. Hear and understand how absolutely off base your comments are. 

Their is nothing irrational about their fear. Irrational fears are fears for things that are super unlikely to happen. My friend's fear of all dogs harming her...including Pomeranians...that's irrational. The fear of assault, coercion, and harassment aren't. They happen at alarming rates. 1 in 5-6 women (depending the citing) will be raped in their lifetime. 43-44% of women will experience some form of sexual violence in the US (see here). That's an epidemic of serious emotional consequence. Your analogy falls so off base I don't even know where to start.

 

So you may just want to start by listening and really getting to know the breadth and depth of this problem rather than reacting and making unfounded claims/strawmen.

 

With luv,

BD

   

 

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

Right.  Much better to resort to an "all men" mantra.  As in "all men are inchoate rapists," or something.

Not helpful, I think.

It's used to suggest that publicly painting all men as inchoate rapists is not healthy.  Or valid.

It's used to slow down an we-have-carte-blanche-to-say-anything-we-like-that-is-horrible-about-men mentality.

So sexual abuse of men is a subordinate concern.  Not on par with sexual abuse of women.  A "deflection."  "Not appropriate."  

Check.

You're probably right.  But this isn't such an event, is it?  The thread is about "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused."

So talking about men who have been abused in this thread is inappropriate because . . .?

Since when is a thread about "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused" necessarily "a discussion about sexual abuse suffered by women?"

That is precisely what you are doing.  In a thread entitled "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused" talking about men being abused is verboten.  It is not a part of the topic that merits attention, and is instead - in your words - merely "a deflection."  It is - in your words - "not appropriate."

Men are supposed to read such things and then not feel "discounted?"  How does that work?

They aren't?  "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused" is necessarily limited to "Hearing Those {WOMEN} Who Have Been Abused?"  Why is that?

Right.  No "discounting the men."  At all.

-Smac

Just stop posting in this discussion. 

This is a case of the sisters needing to talk about what is bothering them, wanting someone to listen, but you, the man, want to fix what's wrong, or want to quibble about your innocence.  You can't. So don't try.

I remember this very well. Sometimes my wife would get fed up with my few regular peccadilloes and launch into the standard generic litany in which she would run up and down the entire list making me aware of everything that was wrong with me and how I didn't listen and didn't care (didn't pick up my socks, etc), sometimes for an hour. During these litanies she would overgeneralize to the moon, about how I always did things that were wrong, and never did things that were right. I learned that she wanted me to listen to her, not argue with her that, really dear, I am not THAT bad, and I don't actually always and never do this and that!  She would eventually run down, I would agree to try to improve myself, and she would be happy that I listened to her. Usually anyway.

The sisters have genuine complaints, and so they are on a generalization rant. It's totally natural! You don't need to trot out the BUT NOT ME response. They actually don't think that YOU ARE A RAPIST!! If they did, then I am pretty sure you'd get banned from the board.

Like Juliann is trying to say, it's not about you, you're not being indicted, so chill, bro.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Just stop posting in this discussion. 

This is a case of the sisters needing to talk about what is bothering them, wanting someone to listen, but you, the man, want to fix what's wrong, or want to quibble about your innocence.  You can't. So don't try.

I remember this very well. Sometimes my wife would get fed up with my few regular peccadilloes and launch into the standard generic litany in which she would run up and down the entire list making me aware of everything that was wrong with me and how I didn't listen and didn't care (didn't pick up my socks, etc), sometimes for an hour. During these litanies she would overgeneralize to the moon, about how I always did things that were wrong, and never did things that were right. I learned that she wanted me to listen to her, not argue with her that, really dear, I am not THAT bad, and I don't actually always and never do this and that!  She would eventually run down, I would agree to try to improve myself, and she would be happy that I listened to her. Usually anyway.

The sisters have genuine complaints, and so they are on a generalization rant. It's totally natural! You don't need to trot out the BUT NOT ME response. They actually don't think that YOU ARE A RAPIST!! If they did, then I am pretty sure you'd get banned from the board.

Like Juliann is trying to say, it's not about you, you're not being indicted, so chill, bro.

I am trying to decide if this would be more or less condescending if you had just placed the blame for their supposed hyperbolic posts on PMS instead of general feminine irrationality. Tough call.

[juliann]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am trying to decide if this would be more or less condescending if you had just placed the blame for their supposed hyperbolic posts on PMS instead of general feminine irrationality. Tough call.

Things can always be worded better but the intent is important, too. I was touched by star's support...and yours. Women need men doing what you are doing until all men realize they are going to have to step back and allow women to express themselves openly. 

[Stargazer]

This is one of those HOT button topics. Six pages already.

This is a topic where I feel quite helpless. There's nothing I can do about all this, because, and you may believe me, I am not part of the problem.  I am even a victim myself, in two different senses. 

So I do relate to the issue.

 

[MorningStar]

I don't fear most men at all.  I don't think most men are perverts, predators, etc.  I believe the ones who are are quite good at victimizing many women.  A lot of my favorite people are men! 

But last night when I was walking into a pharmacy and it was dark, some guy thought it was a good idea to come up behind me and say hi.  I ignored him and proceeded to walk into the pharmacy.  I walked a few more steps, turned my head, and the man gave me a look as if to say, "Um, hello?  I said hi to you."  I gave him a disinterested look and just kept on moving.  

Too many guys don't understand what it's like to be approached in the dark for a woman or that the whole world isn't a bar for picking up women.  Who goes to a pharmacy to be picked up on?!  No one.  They go there when they feel like crap.  

I have a friend who lives in Seattle and has to walk a lot.  She gets hit on every single day by random men who think she owes them conversation simply because they said something to her.  I was engaged when some moron hit on me in my physical therapist's office.  He said, "Hi!  I'm Darrell....."  I reluctantly shook his hand. "I'm Morningstar."  "Mmmmmm ....... you got soft hands ....."  "Uh huh."  I took my hand away.  He reaches out, grabs for my hand again and says, "I just can't believe how soft they are ....."  He starts to caress my hand with the engagement ring on it.  He doesn't care.  He hands me a business card and says, "This is my home number.  This is my cell.  You give me a call and I'll know it's my sweet Morningstar calling!"  

This just isn't a flattering situation.  It's an invasion of my personal space. It's a guy deciding just by looking at me for a split second that he wants to have his way with me, knowing nothing about me (except for my hands, which were extremely soft back then).  I changed my appt. time so I could avoid him like the plague . I've had much worse situations, but guys like this need to get a clue.  Get involved in community service, a choir, church, something! You can't just be hitting on random women everywhere you go! 

[Stargazer]

54 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am trying to decide if this would be more or less condescending if you had just placed the blame for their supposed hyperbolic posts on PMS instead of general feminine irrationality. Tough call.

I think I would prefer to be accused of condescension by someone who is slightly more qualified than you, begging your pardon. 2/3rds of my life has been spent being married, I have noticed certain things about male/female relationships, and while I don't fall into the trap of thinking that all women are alike (or all men for that matter), women do share some characteristics that they don't generally share with men. They want to be listened to.  They want to know someone believes them and cares about them. You can think I'm being condescending if you want, but ...

 

 

[Rain]

I wish I could give more rep points. 

Nehor, thank you. 

Star, what Juliann commented on - that was sweet.

Morning star. You have me thinking and remembering things.

 As I have stated before on the board, I am obese. I don't constantly tear myself down about it, but I'm realistic. Twice now, in 2 separate states, men strangers have approached me when I am alone on my morning walk, not really caring what I look like, with pretty ratty and stained and painted clothing and sweaty skin and hair. They told me how beautiful I was. One asked if I was married and when I said yes, he said it was too bad because I was that beautiful. 

Now, my husband tells me I am beautiful, but he knows and loves me. He sees who I am. I love it. 

But 2 strangers that immediately talk about my looks when they have caught me alone when I am decidedly not looking beautiful? Yes, that's something different entirely. Now some might say it is because the strangers like big women etc, but I find it too coincidental that the only time men have approached me like that was when I was physically in a vulnerable place where not many people are.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Rain

[MorningStar]

These are the things I have been through.  I never talk to my family about the first.

Molested at age 3 by my 12-year-old cousin. He took me into my brother's room in the basement during a Christmas party and my mom caught him and confronted him.  I spent years having no idea why I lashed out at boys who were interested in me.  I had a boy chase me at recess and he didn't know that I wasn't running for fun - I truly did not want him to touch me. He finally got it when I ran for so long, I started to hyperventilate and cry.  He felt bad.  Another boy hugged me from behind. I elbowed him in the ribs and kicked him in the shin.  Another boy I somehow managed to throw him over my head when he grabbed me from behind at recess.  I think my shortness gave me leverage.  

In about 4th grade, a boy much bigger than me locked a bedroom door while we were playing hide and seek, pinned me to the floor, and laid on top of me.  Fortunately my friend's mom came to the door and told us to get out, but I was very shaken up and didn't know what he was planning on doing.  His mom found out and he got a butt chewing and had to call me and apologize. One of the more awkward moments in my life.  Maybe he didn't have horrible intentions, but it felt horrible. 

I was in 5th grade when my male PE teacher asked me to demonstrate a "tumbling" move with him, which involved me hanging underneath him as he crawled.  I was innocent and felt it was wrong, but didn't understand until later how extremely wrong it was.  My face was between his legs. Years later he left the building furious after being accused of touching two girls inappropriately.

6th grade.  I was being examined by a doctor when he basically decided to give me a pelvic exam without explaining, warning, or asking.  I cried all the way home.

7th grade I received an obscene phone call while babysitting.  I'm 99% positive it was the children's father.  I called a friend immediately to pick all of us up because he was never driving me home again. I would recognize that dopey voice anywhere.  Same voice called my home too.

7th grade;  Guy wrote in my yearbook, "Have a nice summer.  Grow bigger t***."   
 

Also 7th grade, I had to sit next to two boys in art class who would tease me about my acne.  One asked, "Have you tried washing your face?"  "Yes."  "Have you tried using soap?"  I said, "It's just from a change in hormones."  He said, "Oh, so you're horny?  Want to borrow my pencil?"

8th grade, some guy whispered to me during class, "Do you masturbate?"

8th grade I was a teacher's assistant for a remedial English class and would take kids into a private room if they missed their spelling test while absent.  Boy quite a bit older then me (he was held back several times) remarked multiple times, "What's that noise you're making?  Are you horny?"  Then he told me he was uncomfortable and needed to "take it out" to adjust.  I kept my eyes fixed on the paper while he went, "Ohhhhh ...... ahhhhhh ...... That's better." I have no idea if he really did it. Doesn't matter.  Same impact.

9th grade. I was playing at a popular park in Seattle with my sister and friends when a bicyclist pulled up and decided to watch us while he masturbated.  The Spirit told me not to look at him, so I didn't.  As soon as we left the structure, my friend exclaimed what he had been doing.

11th grade.   I remembered the day my cousin molested me after my mom asked, "Do you remember ___ doing anything to you?"  I suddenly remembered the angry look on her face and the words I said to her.  This hit me like a ton of bricks in the middle of a final at school.  I realized I could never go over there again.  Never wanted to look at him again.  Had no idea if he stopped the behavior and was tortured by the thought that maybe he was now a grown man hurting people.  We would never have family gatherings with my mom's side again and I was devastated.  I've seen him a handful of times when absolutely necessary and it's really hard to deal with.  Anyway, I was crying so hard, my mom couldn't understand me and she finally took me home.  Never cried so hard for so long ever.  I felt so stupid and betrayed.  Here I had been hanging out at their house for all of those years and been so nice to him, having no clue what he did.  OK, he was 12, but that was plenty old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.  I found out many years later that he got in trouble at school for looking up girls' skirts.  His mom is pretty much crazy and that's why my mom didn't tell her.  When he soiled himself as a child, she would put him in ice water. 

College:  Two guys I dated thought it was OK to put my hand somewhere while we were kissing.  Really?!  Super "romantic".  Super respectful. Groped by other guys.

Still as a young adult:  Nightmarish date with a guy who ended up forcing me to hold his hand and told me, "You don't know it yet, but you have a boyfriend."  

Since I got married, I have dealt with cat calls in various places or derogatory things being yelled at me when I'm taking a walk with my daughter or by myself.  I can't just enjoy a simple walk! 

I know lots of people have had it way worse and I can only imagine the damage.  

 

 

 

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am trying to decide if this would be more or less condescending if you had just placed the blame for their supposed hyperbolic posts on PMS instead of general feminine irrationality. Tough call.

There was that side of it, but the heart was there...and that is his experience through which he is trying to understand what we are going through.  It may not be dead on, but he is trying.

I appreciate you mentioning it.  In another context, if the irrationality was his main focus, I might feel like discussing why I think it wasn't as accurate as it could have been, but he got the main point right...when women need to tell their stories, it is right to listen and let them speak...just as should happen with men.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

This is one of those HOT button topics. Six pages already.

This is a topic where I feel quite helpless. There's nothing I can do about all this, because, and you may believe me, I am not part of the problem.  I am even a victim myself, in two different senses. 

So I do relate to the issue.

 

Being willing to listen, trying to put yourself in a situation where you can relate to how we need to talk about things rather than trying to push the conversation into forms comfortable for yourself and speaking up where you see another who is pushing.  That is a lot already.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[Garden Girl]

This whole situation has... sadly...  been going on for decades... but used to be even worse before the workplace sexual harassment policies were put in place... in the 60's I was in my mid-20's.  In the office lunchroom, I had a male co-worker tell me I had "bedroom eyes."  I was stunned and left immediately... I did report it to our supervisor, and steered clear of him... Many improvements have been made in the work environment, but there's still problems, and the problem as seen from this thread is much wider and deeper.  It's encouraging to see women speaking out here...  I hope such discussion can openly address the various aspects until (sorry) men finally understand what we've faced. 

GG 

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

You are worth it Tacenda.

Aw, thanks Rain!  

Saw this on FB:

Men, what steps do you take on a daily basis to keep from being sexually assaulted? Then see what women do.

Show of hands. How many of you always have your keys in your hand when walking to your car? 👋

"I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted?

At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'

Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers:

Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

― Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Aw, thanks Rain!  

Saw this on FB:

Men, what steps do you take on a daily basis to keep from being sexually assaulted? Then see what women do.

Show of hands. How many of you always have your keys in your hand when walking to your car? 👋

"I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted?

At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'

Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers:

Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

― Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help

 

You know, in church we talk a lot about chastity, but the topic of consent almost never comes up. Maybe we think teaching chastity is sufficient? But then in that case, perhaps some get the idea that sexual assault isn't worse than consensual premarital activities - a handy excuse for a abuse. Just thinking out loud.

In any case, I have to think part of the solution here would be a concerted effort to teach the importance of consent and respecting personal space, especially to boys. This should start early and be reinforced regularly.

[clarkgoble]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Or they don't recognize what sexual harassment actually is.  I highly doubt any of the guys who proposed to me or gave me a gift before we knew each other except as fellow students who happened to be in the same room would have considered it harassment even though it was out of the blue with absolutely no reason besides me treating them as human beings for them to say such a thing to me.

This is a really important point. I see this teaching my own children about what jokes are appropriate or not. If people aren't taught they will make bad judgments. It's not an issue of intents - I'm sure often harassment (and not just sexual harassment) is intended as good fun. Many people simply aren't taught well, for whatever reason. This is especially true during teenage years when let's be honest few of either sex are typically making good judgments.

7 hours ago, MorningStar said:

But last night when I was walking into a pharmacy and it was dark, some guy thought it was a good idea to come up behind me and say hi.  I ignored him and proceeded to walk into the pharmacy.  I walked a few more steps, turned my head, and the man gave me a look as if to say, "Um, hello?  I said hi to you."  I gave him a disinterested look and just kept on moving.  

Too many guys don't understand what it's like to be approached in the dark for a woman or that the whole world isn't a bar for picking up women.  Who goes to a pharmacy to be picked up on?!  No one.  They go there when they feel like crap.

Again I think the system is rough for getting people to act charitably. Most men are pretty ignorant of how women feel in these situations. Worse, largely ignorant men are put in the situation where often there's really no good way to get to know women to ask them out. Culture puts almost all the onus of initiating dating on men. Some who have a very high social IQ can do this in non-threatening suave ways. Most don't have that skill and frequently don't have many women in their circle of friends. So guys more or less are incentivized to be in a situation where they have to approach strangers to date. It really sucks for women who, for whatever reason, don't want to be approached. It sucks for men who are getting shot down, often shattering their confidence when they already are far out of their comfort zone. Then you have the very clueless or worse, embittered or angry, who feel like they need to approach strangers leading to lots of unfortunate events. I really wish that socially we had a very different way of dating.

Just remembering the whole dating scene makes me very glad I'm not in it anymore. I'd be shocked if I didn't make some women uncomfortable in my own past. Certainly I can think of things that unintentionally went amiss - most often due to ignorance and incompetence on my part. Further the worst part of it all is that you only get good by practicing. Typically that involves trial and error. Which entails of course women getting stuck with the error part. About the only consolation one can give is that none of this is pleasant for men either. Further, without in the least disparaging the focus on women here since they without doubt suffer the most, men get sexually harassed as well. Indeed there's a weird cultural assumption that women can do to men things that men would be arrested for. I've had my crotch grabbed by women numerous times. A friend in his mid 20's had an older woman (in her 50's) grab him and lick his face. I've even had gay men grab me quite a few times. And when you shoot them down, these women would often get pretty angry. Again, not downplaying the experiences of any woman here. Likewise the social setting we find ourselves in tends to mean men just view such things differently due to less fear and more confidence for various reasons. But just thinking how often it's happened to me, with huge social incentives against women being the aggressor make me appreciate how horrible it must be for the typical woman who experiences all this far more regularly.

Edited October 18, 2017 by clarkgoble

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, MorningStar said:

These are the things I have been through.  I never talk to my family about the first.

Molested at age 3 by my 12-year-old cousin. He took me into my brother's room in the basement during a Christmas party and my mom caught him and confronted him.  I spent years having no idea why I lashed out at boys who were interested in me.  I had a boy chase me at recess and he didn't know that I wasn't running for fun - I truly did not want him to touch me. He finally got it when I ran for so long, I started to hyperventilate and cry.  He felt bad.  Another boy hugged me from behind. I elbowed him in the ribs and kicked him in the shin.  Another boy I somehow managed to throw him over my head when he grabbed me from behind at recess.  I think my shortness gave me leverage.  

In about 4th grade, a boy much bigger than me locked a bedroom door while we were playing hide and seek, pinned me to the floor, and laid on top of me.  Fortunately my friend's mom came to the door and told us to get out, but I was very shaken up and didn't know what he was planning on doing.  His mom found out and he got a butt chewing and had to call me and apologize. One of the more awkward moments in my life.  Maybe he didn't have horrible intentions, but it felt horrible. 

I was in 5th grade when my male PE teacher asked me to demonstrate a "tumbling" move with him, which involved me hanging underneath him as he crawled.  I was innocent and felt it was wrong, but didn't understand until later how extremely wrong it was.  My face was between his legs. Years later he left the building furious after being accused of touching two girls inappropriately.

6th grade.  I was being examined by a doctor when he basically decided to give me a pelvic exam without explaining, warning, or asking.  I cried all the way home.

7th grade I received an obscene phone call while babysitting.  I'm 99% positive it was the children's father.  I called a friend immediately to pick all of us up because he was never driving me home again. I would recognize that dopey voice anywhere.  Same voice called my home too.

7th grade;  Guy wrote in my yearbook, "Have a nice summer.  Grow bigger t***."   
 

Also 7th grade, I had to sit next to two boys in art class who would tease me about my acne.  One asked, "Have you tried washing your face?"  "Yes."  "Have you tried using soap?"  I said, "It's just from a change in hormones."  He said, "Oh, so you're horny?  Want to borrow my pencil?"

8th grade, some guy whispered to me during class, "Do you masturbate?"

8th grade I was a teacher's assistant for a remedial English class and would take kids into a private room if they missed their spelling test while absent.  Boy quite a bit older then me (he was held back several times) remarked multiple times, "What's that noise you're making?  Are you horny?"  Then he told me he was uncomfortable and needed to "take it out" to adjust.  I kept my eyes fixed on the paper while he went, "Ohhhhh ...... ahhhhhh ...... That's better." I have no idea if he really did it. Doesn't matter.  Same impact.

9th grade. I was playing at a popular park in Seattle with my sister and friends when a bicyclist pulled up and decided to watch us while he masturbated.  The Spirit told me not to look at him, so I didn't.  As soon as we left the structure, my friend exclaimed what he had been doing.

11th grade.   I remembered the day my cousin molested me after my mom asked, "Do you remember ___ doing anything to you?"  I suddenly remembered the angry look on her face and the words I said to her.  This hit me like a ton of bricks in the middle of a final at school.  I realized I could never go over there again.  Never wanted to look at him again.  Had no idea if he stopped the behavior and was tortured by the thought that maybe he was now a grown man hurting people.  We would never have family gatherings with my mom's side again and I was devastated.  I've seen him a handful of times when absolutely necessary and it's really hard to deal with.  Anyway, I was crying so hard, my mom couldn't understand me and she finally took me home.  Never cried so hard for so long ever.  I felt so stupid and betrayed.  Here I had been hanging out at their house for all of those years and been so nice to him, having no clue what he did.  OK, he was 12, but that was plenty old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.  I found out many years later that he got in trouble at school for looking up girls' skirts.  His mom is pretty much crazy and that's why my mom didn't tell her.  When he soiled himself as a child, she would put him in ice water. 

College:  Two guys I dated thought it was OK to put my hand somewhere while we were kissing.  Really?!  Super "romantic".  Super respectful. Groped by other guys.

Still as a young adult:  Nightmarish date with a guy who ended up forcing me to hold his hand and told me, "You don't know it yet, but you have a boyfriend."  

Since I got married, I have dealt with cat calls in various places or derogatory things being yelled at me when I'm taking a walk with my daughter or by myself.  I can't just enjoy a simple walk! 

I know lots of people have had it way worse and I can only imagine the damage.  

 

 

 

 

I had forgotten about the sexual things that some guy wrote in my yearbook in middle school, and the sick sexual things some would whisper during class, until you shared your experiences.   It's horrible that girls have to deal with that in school.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Aw, thanks Rain!  

Saw this on FB:

Men, what steps do you take on a daily basis to keep from being sexually assaulted? Then see what women do.

Show of hands. How many of you always have your keys in your hand when walking to your car? 👋

"I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted?

At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'

Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers:

Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

― Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help

Excellent example of how this topic impacts women on a daily basis.  

[clarkgoble]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

Given that a large percentage of the young topless men I see are in BYU shorts (I think the track team or at least classes run over there given many are in packs), they definitely don't equate them on a regular basis here.

I think gym or related things are different - just as dress for women in such circumstances are different. But speaking only for myself doing that everywhere is completely inappropriate. But obviously since I see the same thing around Provo not everyone agrees. So I'm definitely not saying it's not a problem.

Of course I also remember back when I was at BYU the most immodest swimsuits (IMO) were those offered by BYU for rental. They didn't exactly leave a lot to the imagination for either men or women due to their rather threadbare wear. Worse, you had to wear the BYU approved suits. I knew lots of people who put clothing over the BYU suits. (No idea if that's still an issue -- I hope not)

Edited October 18, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Calm]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

 

Again I think the system is rough for getting people to act charitably. Most men are pretty ignorant of how women feel in these situations. Worse, men are put in the situation where often there's really no good way to get to know women to ask them out....

Further, without in the least disparaging the focus on women here since they without doubt suffer the most, men get sexually harassed as well. Indeed there's a weird cultural assumption that women can do to men things that men would be arrested for. I've had my crotch grabbed by women numerous times. A friend in his mid 20's had an older woman (in her 50's) grab him and lick his face. I've even had gay men grab me quite a few times. And when you shoot them down, these women would often get pretty angry. Again, not downplaying the experiences of any woman here. Likewise the social setting we find ourselves in tends to mean men just view such things differently due to less fear and more confidence for various reasons.

It is not downplaying women's experience to point out equivalent abuse men get.  Crotch grabbing is equivalent to breast grabbing, imo.  Both are assaults on private aspects of our bodies and both can be quite painful.  The only difference is a woman isn't likely to be able to do much more if the man is willing to fight back. However I can see men in shock doing nothing and even out of fear participating if the woman threatens to call rape on him if there are no witnesses.

I see education as essential to remove the less safe (as opposed to awkward) inappropriateness.  If it can also help with awkwardness such as inappropriate gift giving or asking someone no more than an minor acquaintance out on a singles date, bonus, but the talking to women or men in strange places without seeing if they are interested in making at least eye contact before saying anything would be better if that could be taught rather than figured out by trial and error.

I have no personal experience with what is offered for this in the workplace or in schools.  My son never mentioned it at his school.  Nor has anyone else.  

There was a definite lack of awareness of such at BYU in the late 70s.  BYU branch leaders often placed us in FHE groups without our consent/feedback or any instruction on how to treat others save that one needed to attend.  I was only asked about preferences by the EQP and no one else my freshman summer term. He, as far as I could tell, was a very decent young man and actually assigned me and my roommate to his own group after I shared how homesick my only member convert roommate was.  That was the best setup I experienced.  One other was comfortable enough, if not enjoyable.  Two were 'off', feeling unsafe with guys who didn't respect personal space...they were our brothers after all, har, har.... and made me hate Monday night. 

These assigned strangers were the guys we were supposed to depend on for our safety.  I was almost always assigned apartments with awkward guys who were obviously more interested in finding dates than being friends.  One of the inappropriate proposals came from my sophomore group, the whole group gave me and my roommates the creeps, but we were not allowed to change...and attendance was tied to worthiness.  Another non consensual activity where no feedback from the general group was sought was one branch dance where they assigned the men to pick up the girls without even telling the girls who they were going with so they would be forced to refuse to go at the door when the guy showed up with flowers and having them go as singles, not in a group.  First and last dance was supposed to be with your 'date', the last was a slow one.  My guy never came, which was both very humiliating and very relieving...I went with an engaged roommate who went late due to work and had lots of fun being with guys I already knew in a group setting, but if he had, I would have been alone in the whole apartment complex as far as I could tell, with a total stranger, alone in his car, and no one to witness who it was who really picked me up.  I didn't even know where the dance was as I was not familiar with the area since I didn't have a car, he could have taken me anywhere.  All he had to do was deny ever picking me up.

Hopefully those types of activities are forbidden these days and they don't force students to pair off before they know who they are being alone with.

 I would be interested to hear some stories of sensitivity training/education if it is happening and how it is done in the real world.  I only have only media culture to judge from and that has made sensitivity training one big joke.  I don't think I have seen one tv show or movie where it is portrayed as a positive, intelligent experience.  Instead it is portrayed as power politics rather than needed education, punishment that is to be escaped from, zoned out of, used to make inappropriate jokes to show how cool and untouchable one is, etc.  Teachers are uptight, sexually inexperienced or repressed and more concerned with their own dignity and are usually incompetent. Unfortunately this often means that what is taught is portrayed as unrealistic, rigid, misanthropic, a way for the appropriately weak to get power over the more alpha males, of no value whatsoever for 'real' people in the 'real' world.  

I would be interested to find out how many in the workplace where it is mandated take it seriously or where voluntary, actually volunteer for educational reasons and if their expectations and involvement has been impacted by such portrayals.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I think gym or related things are different - just as dress for women in such circumstances are different. But speaking only for myself doing that everywhere is completely inappropriate. But obviously since I see the same thing around Provo not everyone agrees. So I'm definitely not saying it's not a problem.

Of course I also remember back when I was at BYU the most immodest swimsuits (IMO) were those offered by BYU for rental. They didn't exactly leave a lot to the imagination for either men or women due to their rather threadbare wear. Worse, you had to wear the BYU approved suits. I knew lots of people who put clothing over the BYU suits. (No idea if that's still an issue -- I hope not)

Context is definitely important.  My thoughts often go to "track team" rather than "topless guy" when I see groups and by the time it is ready to shift to the individual, I am in control and can choose how to react.  I am not someone who finds guys in swimsuits an issue if they are at the pool.  It is unpredicted moments where my mind is wandering.  

I wonder about studies measuring women's interest based on the eye response...tracking, widening of the pupil, heartbeat.  Been too long since I did any serious research into that (clinical psych classes probably 40 years ago, hope the science is better by now).

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is not downplaying women's experience to point out equivalent abuse men get.  Crotch grabbing is equivalent to breast grabbing, imo.  Both are assaults on private aspects of our bodies and both can be quite painful.  The only difference is a woman isn't likely to be able to do much more if the man is willing to fight back. However I can see men in shock doing nothing and even out of fear participating if the woman threatens to call rape on him if there are no witnesses.

Women have touched me inappropriately on a number of occasions and have said a number of salacious things I did not like or appreciate.  But, I realize the big difference is, the woman who grabbed my crotch was not in a position to pick me up and toss me in her car, throw me to the ground and undress me, nor pose much of a physical threat at all barring she had a concealed weapon.  I pushed her hand away and walked away without fear or much concern at all.  Later I figured she was probably a victim of sexual assault, perhaps many times over.  I was more sad than offended when that thought hit me. 

There's definitely a big difference. 

 

[Avatar4321]

18 hours ago, juliann said:

But he is so cute when he is angry.

(For those who need an interpreter, this is what women are told when their objections are being dismissed.)

my wife actually is absolutely beautiful when she is angry. Especially when that anger is not directed toward me. Cause she does amazing things when she is fighting foe what she loves.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I think I would prefer to be accused of condescension by someone who is slightly more qualified than you, begging your pardon. 2/3rds of my life has been spent being married, I have noticed certain things about male/female relationships, and while I don't fall into the trap of thinking that all women are alike (or all men for that matter), women do share some characteristics that they don't generally share with men. They want to be listened to.  They want to know someone believes them and cares about them. You can think I'm being condescending if you want, but ...

 

 

I am sorry for being a handicapped single person who is unqualified to know anything about gender relations. Please bestow more of your hidden wisdom o grand master of the secret mysteries of marriage I may never be judged worthy to be initiated into.