Abuse among men, as adults or children

[Calm]

In order to treat a subject brought up in the other thread without getting that one off track (because at this point almost everyone is talking stats and stuff about men, not relaying personal stories though one or two have), I am starting a new thread.  Hopefully if someone has posted a comment in the other thread, they will post it here.  I have asked the mod to move stuff over, but they may not have time so it would be nice to move your own posts and then delete them for the mod.

Here is the post that I see as starting the subtopics from NoFear:

"An interesting article from Scientific American: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

  Quote

In 2014, we published a study on the sexual victimization of men, finding that men were much more likely to be victims of sexual abuse than was thought. To understand who was committing the abuse, we next analyzed four surveys conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to glean an overall picture of how frequently women were committing sexual victimization.

The results were surprising. For example, the CDC’s nationally representative data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators."

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

My response to NoFear:

Men definitely need to get comfortable talking about it, but given how culture is dismissive of such things, portrays men as lucky if they attract attention if the woman is beautiful or comical if she is not, it must be very difficult to be open about.

They probably get less instruction in safety measures as well.

--------

While men are much more likely to be killed by strangers than women, out of ten homicides by spouses back in 95 (so before SSM) 4 out of 10 were men.  That is not an exception.  The stats get confusing because overall men have a much higher homicide rate than women (so it comes out for men at 3% of homicides were by spouses and around 25% iirc for women) and men are likely to be killed by strangers while it is the reverse for women.

https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vi.pdf

 Men cause much more injury and more death, but women cause a substantial percentage of death at least. It is another thread, I just wanted to get the correct stats up.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

Hopefully NoFear adds his video...if not, I will add it later.

Looking forward to hearing how guys feel this problem impacts them and their friends and families as well as hearing everyone's ideas on how changes can be made (this is abuse in general by male or female, as adults or children).

[Duncan]

I'm going to throw this out there but generally speaking men don't talk about problems, we go into our emotional "man cave", which can have disastrous results like completed suicide is more common among men then women, even though women attempt it more often (i've read that I don't have any study to back it up) In the Church, society there is this role that men must play, providers, serve mission, callings. I think the Church, generally speaking, is trying to burst that image by saying we need to be Christ centered and not Church centered. it's okay not to like camping, know anything about basketball and you don't need to be a General Authority or a President of anything to be approved by God

[california boy]

I have been thinking about this after reading the thread about abuse that women seem to endure on a regular basis.  And to be quite honest, I am a bit nervous to bring this up.  It is something I have never told anyone about.  It is also something that didn't particularly traumatized me.  So to bring it up feels like I am devaluing some of the horrific things that women go through.

I bought a brand new sailboat that was made in France.  So I went to France to pick it up.  There was about a week between when the boat was delivered and when I left the port where the delivery took place.  During that week, I would shower at the mens shower room provided by the marina.  It had about 6 private showers with wood doors that closed, but did not lock.  The spring kept them closed. In the mornings, the shower area was pretty crowded with a bunch of guys showering. shaving and going about their morning business.  For some reason the cleaning lady decided that the best time to clean the restroom/shower room was in the morning when it was the most crowded.  I know this might sound strange to many Americans, but in Europe it is quite common for a cleaning lady to clean the restrooms/showers while the men are still using it.  No one seems to mind.  The private areas all have doors on them so most of the time it is no big deal to them.  

The cleaning lady who was in her late 30's maybe early 40's that was there in the mornings for some reason seemed to develop a thing for me.  She would pretend to not notice when I was going into the shower stall, but just about the time I was completely undressed she would open the door, look at me for a minute, then say excuse me in french and shut the door.  The first time she did it, I thought it was an accident.  The second time she did it I thought maybe she didn't see me go in.  When she did it on the third day, I figured out what she was up to.  I quit going to the showers in the morning.

And this is the part that I hesitate to talk about.  Since I am gay, I never thought about it as being sexual.  But she didn't know I was gay and clearly she enjoyed catching me naked.

There have been other times where women have come on to me even when they knew I was gay.  I won't go into what happened, but it is pretty much similar to what some of the women describe in the other thread about unwanted advances, and not stopping when they should have.  Maybe they thought they could turn me straight.  Maybe they saw me as a challenge.

But I can't say that I was traumatized by any of these incidents   It was more an annoyance than feeling threatened.  Perhaps that is why the two threads should be kept separate.  While the issue is the same, the trauma is different.  At least for me.  Other men might have a completely different reaction.  Or maybe we live in a world that has different standards.  Because I know that if a man opened the door on a woman showering 3 days in a row, the outcome and trauma  would be quite different 

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

I have been thinking about this after reading the thread about abuse that women seem to endure on a regular basis.  And to be quite honest, I am a bit nervous to bring this up.  It is something I have never told anyone about.  It is also something that didn't particularly traumatized me.  So to bring it up feels like I am devaluing some of the horrific things that women go through.

I bought a brand new sailboat that was made in France.  So I went to France to pick it up.  There was about a week between when the boat was delivered and when I left the port where the delivery took place.  During that week, I would shower at the mens shower room provided by the marina.  It had about 6 private showers with wood doors that closed, but did not lock.  The spring kept them closed. In the mornings, the shower area was pretty crowded with a bunch of guys showering. shaving and going about their morning business.  For some reason the cleaning lady decided that the best time to clean the restroom/shower room was in the morning when it was the most crowded.  I know this might sound strange to many Americans, but in Europe it is quite common for a cleaning lady to clean the restrooms/showers while the men are still using it.  No one seems to mind.  The private areas all have doors on them so most of the time it is no big deal to them.  

The cleaning lady who was in her late 30's maybe early 40's that was there in the mornings for some reason seemed to develop a thing for me.  She would pretend to not notice when I was going into the shower stall, but just about the time I was completely undressed she would open the door, look at me for a minute, then say excuse me in french and shut the door.  The first time she did it, I thought it was an accident.  The second time she did it I thought maybe she didn't see me go in.  When she did it on the third day, I figured out what she was up to.  I quit going to the showers in the morning.

And this is the part that I hesitate to talk about.  Since I am gay, I never thought about it as being sexual.  But she didn't know I was gay and clearly she enjoyed catching me naked.

There have been other times where women have come on to me even when they knew I was gay.  I won't go into what happened, but it is pretty much similar to what some of the women describe in the other thread about unwanted advances, and not stopping when they should have.  Maybe they thought they could turn me straight.  Maybe they saw me as a challenge.

But I can't say that I was traumatized by any of these incidents   It was more an annoyance than feeling threatened.  Perhaps that is why the two threads should be kept separate.  While the issue is the same, the trauma is different.  At least for me.  Other men might have a completely different reaction.  Or maybe we live in a world that has different standards.  Because I know that if a man opened the door on a woman showering 3 days in a row, the outcome and trauma  would be quite different 

not that this is the subject of the thread but you own a new sailboat from France?  Are you a TV celebrity or something? If you're Jim Nabors or Clay Aiken or Neil Patrick Harris......I would die!!!!!!! 

[Calm]

From my POV, the not talking about problems is a huge issue. While my husband's family were all taught 'don't dwell on the negative' to the point the parents ignored anger in their kids (I mean a usually very sweet tempered grown son walking through the house swearing at the top of his lungs, they go quiet until he left the house and then started talking as if the several minutes of cursing never occurred), the women have overcomed that for the most part (probably because of modeling other women).  Unfortunately the guys mostly haven't and so by the time the negative is talked about, it gets expressed as a blowup and terrifies the kids.  Then it gets shutdown again and poohed poohed as nothing, people are overreacting to a fist through the wall or a meltdown in the middle of a store where an ink cartridge was shattered and any concern expressed about something happening again is an insult, so very little progress is made.

My dad was a problem solver...of everyone else's problem.  He didn't have issues (yeah, he just shaped his world so Mom and others took care of his needs without his recognition as he saw himself as the ultimately content and independent man).  I figured out years later he had transferred a lot of his frustrations with Mom onto me, which was in part why he was always trying to 'fix' me his way rather than let me be who I was (his autobiography is pure fantasy when it comes to me).  My brothers take after my dad a lot.  It has worked well for my younger brother so far, not so wellfor my older one for some reason (he may have picked up more from Mom, it can be an uncomfortable mix...they worked well as a couple, complemented each other well, but their needs were very different so having both as some of us do can be difficult to balance).

So I would love to hear if there is any safe manly way to get a man who isn't comfortable to open up to do so, because even if he doesn't recognize it, if he is gloomy or fuming inwardly or wanting change but not able to ask for it, the rest of us in the house are feeling the darkness and yet are given no way to response besides waiting it out...which if actual depression could take months or years and not just days or weeks for them to quietly process.  We (the families) want to help and we also want to protect ourselves because honestly when the blowup happens we get hit hard, yet can't engage with the why...but mainly want to help from what I have seen in my own extended families.

What does it feel like from the inside, guys?

And please tell me if I need to edit my explanation of why I am asking above because it is too poorly attached to your reality.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, california boy said:

I have been thinking about this after reading the thread about abuse that women seem to endure on a regular basis.  And to be quite honest, I am a bit nervous to bring this up.  It is something I have never told anyone about.  It is also something that didn't particularly traumatized me.  So to bring it up feels like I am devaluing some of the horrific things that women go through.

I bought a brand new sailboat that was made in France.  So I went to France to pick it up.  There was about a week between when the boat was delivered and when I left the port where the delivery took place.  During that week, I would shower at the mens shower room provided by the marina.  It had about 6 private showers with wood doors that closed, but did not lock.  The spring kept them closed. In the mornings, the shower area was pretty crowded with a bunch of guys showering. shaving and going about their morning business.  For some reason the cleaning lady decided that the best time to clean the restroom/shower room was in the morning when it was the most crowded.  I know this might sound strange to many Americans, but in Europe it is quite common for a cleaning lady to clean the restrooms/showers while the men are still using it.  No one seems to mind.  The private areas all have doors on them so most of the time it is no big deal to them.  

The cleaning lady who was in her late 30's maybe early 40's that was there in the mornings for some reason seemed to develop a thing for me.  She would pretend to not notice when I was going into the shower stall, but just about the time I was completely undressed she would open the door, look at me for a minute, then say excuse me in french and shut the door.  The first time she did it, I thought it was an accident.  The second time she did it I thought maybe she didn't see me go in.  When she did it on the third day, I figured out what she was up to.  I quit going to the showers in the morning.

And this is the part that I hesitate to talk about.  Since I am gay, I never thought about it as being sexual.  But she didn't know I was gay and clearly she enjoyed catching me naked.

There have been other times where women have come on to me even when they knew I was gay.  I won't go into what happened, but it is pretty much similar to what some of the women describe in the other thread about unwanted advances, and not stopping when they should have.  Maybe they thought they could turn me straight.  Maybe they saw me as a challenge.

But I can't say that I was traumatized by any of these incidents   It was more an annoyance than feeling threatened.  Perhaps that is why the two threads should be kept separate.  While the issue is the same, the trauma is different.  At least for me.  Other men might have a completely different reaction.  Or maybe we live in a world that has different standards.  Because I know that if a man opened the door on a woman showering 3 days in a row, the outcome and trauma  would be quite different 

Thanks for sharing.  It is very important to learn how each of us reacts, including what is likely a broad range.  Not only to understand others, but in order to learn how to better explain our own needs.

My husband came home from Moscow once and told me of a prostitute showing up at his door offering a "nice massage".  He was embarrassed, but not fearful (he actually should have been as she was connected with Mafia who beat up some other men who rejected the women they sent up, his friend was assassinated by the same group over control of the hotel) and now it makes a great story on rare occasions.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

not that this is the subject of the thread but you own a new sailboat from France?  Are you a TV celebrity or something? If you're Jim Nabors or Clay Aiken or Neil Patrick Harris......I would die!!!!!!! 

There is going to shortly be a signup sheet of people who want to visit cb.  I love the idea of sailing (the ocean is heaven come down to earth in my view), my stomach does not...sigh.

[Jeanne]

Thanks for sharing CB...it is the opening up that is the important part..whether traumatized or not...it left an impression and I sense the"heebie jeebies" from your post.  If you were uncomfortable..it was not right 

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is going to shortly be a signup sheet of people who want to visit cb.  I love the idea of sailing (the ocean is heaven come down to earth in my view), my stomach does not...sigh.

I have not sailed in a long time. I am jealous. Let me know if you need a mostly amateur to help you out some time CB.  

[california boy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to distract from the thread when I brought up where this all happened.  I am not sure how to handle this.  I can see this issue could totally sidetrack this thread.  Yeah, I am a pretty lucky guys.  I guess you can pm me if you want to know more.  

[Duncan]

I can't speak for every guy but you get this diet of what not to do when it comes to the opposite sex. I remember our stake used to have this "Standards Night" and that's where you heard the crushed cake, stomped on banana stuff. We had this meeting about what to expect as teenagers. Did anyone ever figure what "petting" was? like I pet the cat but what's bad about that? no one ever told us! But anyways, when I was 12 we got this "River of Desire" talk and like I remember laughing my head off, like whaaaaaaaaat?????????????? since then I still don't know what it means. You get told what not to do but you don't get what to do and how to talk to women or not be jealous or how to do with feelings. So you bottle up all these feelings and it comes out 60 ways to sunday. So you get awko taco situations like this, that is all too common...

 

[Duncan]

11 minutes ago, california boy said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to distract from the thread when I brought up where this all happened.  I am not sure how to handle this.  I can see this issue could totally sidetrack this thread.  Yeah, I am a pretty lucky guys.  I guess you can pm me if you want to know more.  

oh, we love you!!!!!!! even if you were on Hollywood Squares

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I can't speak for every guy but you get this diet of what not to do when it comes to the opposite sex. I remember our stake used to have this "Standards Night" and that's where you heard the crushed cake, stomped on banana stuff. We had this meeting about what to expect as teenagers. Did anyone ever figure what "petting" was? like I pet the cat but what's bad about that? no one ever told us! But anyways, when I was 12 we got this "River of Desire" talk and like I remember laughing my head off, like whaaaaaaaaat?????????????? since then I still don't know what it means. You get told what not to do but you don't get what to do and how to talk to women or not be jealous or how to do with feelings. So you bottle up all these feelings and it comes out 60 ways to sunday. So you get awko taco situations like this, that is all too common...

 

I remember the old John Bytheway story where he had a nervous bishop asking the youth to submit written questions to avoid embarrassment and he would answer them for everyone. His written comment was that he needed help to know how to get into more situations where breaking the law of chastity was an option.  

Edited October 19, 2017 by The Nehor

[ttribe]

Two prominent incidents in my youth:

1 - an adult male tutor providing me private trumpet lessons when I was about 12 called me at home one night to tell me that I "turned him on." He was asked to never come back and I never saw him again.

2 - an adult male neighbor visited my home one day when I was about 14 to ask questions about our computer; he began rubbing my shoulders as I was showing him a feature of the computer.  I asked him to stop and told him I needed to leave so he would too.  For several weeks, he would knock on the door and I wouldn't answer and he would look in various windows of our home (presumably to find me). My parents were divorced, I lived with my mother only, and it was summer vacation.  Yeah, this situation freaked me out.

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Two prominent incidents in my youth:

1 - an adult male tutor providing me private trumpet lessons when I was about 12 called me at home one night to tell me that I "turned him on." He was asked to never come back and I never saw him again.

2 - an adult male neighbor visited my home one day when I was about 14 to ask questions about our computer; he began rubbing my shoulders as I was showing him a feature of the computer.  I asked him to stop and told him I needed to leave so he would too.  For several weeks, he would knock on the door and I wouldn't answer and he would look in various windows of our home (presumably to find me). My parents were divorced, I lived with my mother only, and it was summer vacation.  Yeah, this situation freaked me out.

Based on everything in this thread and the other thread can we just flood the world again and start over?

Edited October 19, 2017 by The Nehor

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Based on everything in this thread and the other thread can we just flood the world again and start over?

instead of water, let's do Pepsi and take out the mosquitos while we are at it. If I am going to drown Pepsi is not a bad way to go

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

instead of water, let's do Pepsi and take out the mosquitos while we are at it. If I am going to drown Pepsi is not a bad way to go

Too sticky.

I volunteer as an advocate in child abuse cases and know the world can be horrible but.....so much just here.

Yuck!

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Too sticky.

I volunteer as an advocate in child abuse cases and know the world can be horrible but.....so much just here.

Yuck!

I got Weird Al and his band a raft so i'll save you a seat you bring the tacos though

Edited October 19, 2017 by Duncan

[Jane_Doe]

I spoke in the other thread about my childhood sexual abuse.  My husband was also abused as a child (yes, the perpetrator was female).  It really hurt his view of people in authority and put a deep (but unspoken) wedge in his family.  On a different note though... he understands me on a level most other people don't.  And I likewise him.  In a way it makes me think of the Savior and how He alone descended below all things to truly understand the hurts we each experience.  

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

not that this is the subject of the thread but you own a new sailboat from France?  Are you a TV celebrity or something? If you're Jim Nabors or Clay Aiken or Neil Patrick Harris......I would die!!!!!!! 

Well he is from California.  

[RevTestament]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Based on everything in this thread and the other thread can we just flood the world again and start over?

Fish, fish, you might get your wish.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Two prominent incidents in my youth:

1 - an adult male tutor providing me private trumpet lessons when I was about 12 called me at home one night to tell me that I "turned him on." He was asked to never come back and I never saw him again.

2 - an adult male neighbor visited my home one day when I was about 14 to ask questions about our computer; he began rubbing my shoulders as I was showing him a feature of the computer.  I asked him to stop and told him I needed to leave so he would too.  For several weeks, he would knock on the door and I wouldn't answer and he would look in various windows of our home (presumably to find me). My parents were divorced, I lived with my mother only, and it was summer vacation.  Yeah, this situation freaked me out.

I'm sorry you went through this ttribe.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I'm not sure the purpose of this thread, but it seems to be, in part, to give other men permission to speak out?

I'm happy to share if that will help. I have experienced unwanted sexual advances literally more times than I can relate. During certain phases of my life, they have been borderline ubiquitous. For example, I did my master's study at a large public university in America (which, like the city where it is located, is famous for being very diverse and 'liberated'), and many of my classes were in the humanities building. Every single male toilet in this building had a sign on the door reminding me that I had the right to use the facilities free of interference or harassment. I didn't like the sound of this, but I didn't understand it either, and I also didn't want to have to run to a completely different building just to relieve myself, so I just started to use the toilets there. Quite quickly, I learnt the reasons behind the signs, and eventually I realised that I would need to avoid drinking water before any of my history or music classes. That didn't always work out as planned, of course, and even a quick trip to the toilet carried about a 50/50 risk.

I also swam laps three times per week at this same uni. I can't count the number of times another student stalked me from the showers and then stood in the visible distance and engaged in a solo sex act.

Many dozens of times I have used a public urinal and had a man do something very similar next to or near me.

On (thankfully only!) two occasions, I have had other men touch my body inappropriately (intentional genital contact).

The only time that I was the object of aggressive sexual behaviour by a female was in the back seat of a taxi, ironically on my way to church. I had met this law student at a guest lecture that I gave, and she pretended to be interested in going to church with me. I tried giving her the address to our chapel, but she faked not being very good with addresses and insisted that she would pick me up in a taxi so I could give the directions to the driver. It was a long drive, and I reached the point where I had to say, 'Do not touch me again, or I will be forced to do something neither of us will like'. She touched me again, and I snapped. (It wasn't anger, but it was certainly a willingness to be physical with a female, which is not something I'm wont to do in any situation.) I ended up pinning her against the car door with both of my feet, and I kept her there till we arrived at the chapel. She then had the nerve after church was over to invite me to go home in another taxi with her. When I declined, she pouted and stamped her foot and acted all hurt in public. Other Church members wondered what I'd done to upset this poor girl. I never told them.

I've never repeated most of these experiences to anyone. I've certainly used what I've experienced, though, to teach others to be wise and wary, maybe most especially when I was serving as Young Men president.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan