Abuse among men, as adults or children

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

Only one one person here has commented under his own name and that is John.   I commend his courage.  Anonymity cuts both ways.  I stand for what I think and do it fully under my own name and take the consequences.

Hi...my name is Vickie Duncan. Jeanne was my sister's name.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Jeanne

[The Nehor]

And my name is Slartibartfast but my name is not important.

[Hestia]

Due to mfb's sensitive sensibilities he has been banned from the thread for his own protection.

~mods

[Storm Rider]

Calme, I am not sure there is a single, specific way to deal with negative experiences.  Men and women generally appear to deal with life experiences differently.  I reject the trite generalizations that are today bandied about that men are men, don't cry, and keep everything inside.  Those types of men have been gone for a long, long time.  Men of today obviously have become so in touch with their feminine side that they can wear a dress proudly and without reproach from their fellows.  The stereotypical male is most definitely a small, very small, segment of the male population. 

I suspect that all children experience different forms of sexual growth and experiences. Some are from adults and some are from their peers as children.  Children play doctor, touch one another, and explore their bodies and well as the bodies of other children. Most often, it is benign, simple exploration.  One of the major problems that I find in the world is how far humans grow up so far removed from nature - as in living on farms and ranches.  These agrarian lifestyles were full of opportunities to learn the differences between males and females and where little ones come from because it is constantly in front of them.  They learn to take it in stride without being offended that the bull is mounting the heifer daily or at least trying to.  Today, it would not be surprising to hear some group begin protesting that male animals are not being respectful of the opposite gender and that strides need to be taken to prevent such activity.  They view as evidence of the abuses of a patriarchal society that needs to be put down and destroyed.   

Males dealing with sexual abuse or emotional abuse may be different.  It is not a better way, but it certainly is not a worse way than that of women.  As they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but some of us just are not going to squeak as a matter of being.

Personally, I just cannot imagine sharing my life's experiences with strangers and, most definitely, the world at large.  I suppose we could all push for a completely asexual environment at work, in church, in social groups, clubs, and organizations and everywhere else that males and females have the potential to interact.  What does that look like to you?  Would you want to live in such a world? 

If I could wish for something I would wish that no one was ever abused sexually or emotionally.  However, would I want humans to devolve into asexuality in order to achieve this end?  No, I would not and I don't think anyone else does either.  The problem is that squeaky wheels are squeaking about a whole range of things and a lot of it does not make sense to this old man.  No thinking human, male or female, condones abuse, but it seems to me that some are throwing the baby out with the bath water and it is happening regularly in that circle of squeakers,

I like humans because I see so much good in them.  I see a lot of evil in them too, but that ability to do evil is done by all of humanity regardless of their gender. 

[Calm]

" I am not sure there is a single, specific way to deal with negative experiences."

I hope no one thinks I suggested there was.  People need to be able to tell their own story in their own way if they so desire so we can understand the range of needs.  I have never suggested anyone should feel obligated to share.  I also set up two threads because it became quickly obvious that men and women experience harassment and assault in ways that are significantly enough different that it was better to split the conversation rather than having the combined topic feel like each post was derailing the others.  It is highly likely in my view we could divide up into more threads if we had more participants because of variations in responses.

One of the reasons I want to see how various men deal with negativity is so I better understand my husband's approach and what he needs to heal when wounded (he is a sweet guy, when he gets hurt it is deep).  His way is completely foreign to my own way and quite unlike my father's or brothers'.  (We are fixers, he is a denier.)

"What does that look like to you?  Would you want to live in such a world?"

I have no clue why you are asking me this.  This was a confusing to me comment. If I understand what you are asking, I see no reason to assume a solution involves asexual environments, nor have I seen anyone pushing that as a solution.  Instead, I see a focus on creating a safe world where sexuality can be safely expressed and experienced as desired (though there is extensive debate on what limits there should be).

"Today, it would not be surprising to hear some group begin protesting that male animals are not being respectful of the opposite gender and that strides need to be taken to prevent such activity."

Are you serious?  I don't know how to respond to this comment as I don't see it as probable at all.  I would be completely shocked to hear of such a group that was serious and not a parody.

What is the baby being thrown out with the bath water?

Edited October 21, 2017 by Calm

[Meerkat]

On 10/18/2017 at 4:55 PM, Calm said:

My dad was a problem solver...of everyone else's problem.  He didn't have issues (yeah, he just shaped his world so Mom and others took care of his needs without his recognition as he saw himself ultimately content and independent man).  

So I would love to hear if there is any safe manly way to get a man who isn't comfortable to open up to do so, because even if he doesn't recognize it, if he is gloomy or fuming inwardly or wanting change but not able to ask for it, the rest of us in the house are feeling the darkness and yet are given no way to response besides waiting it out...which if actual depression could take months or years and not just days or weeks for them to quietly process.  We (the families) want to help and we also want to protect ourselves because honestly when the blowup happens we get hit hard, yet can't engage with the why...but mainly want to help from what I have seen in my own extended families.

What does it feel like from the inside, guys?

Okay--  I recognize some of the descriptions you put out there.  I think a lot of us, men and women, are oblivious to the things we do and say and their impact on people.  We have a wonderful daughter that we leaned on during the years my wife was bedridden with a very difficult illness.  We thought our daughter was sent to our family because she had a gift for organizing, efficiency and getting things done.  When she was 14 she had enough, and let us know we weren't treating her fairly.  She was so effective, she could do in five minutes what it would take a day or two to get the other children to take care of.  We learned, when she dug in her heels, that the rest of the family was getting a free ride on her labor.  Had we realized, we would have acknowledged that fact and either worked out a compensation that would have made it fair, or we would have backed off to where it was fair.  There were other forms of abuse that we were oblivious to.  One was spending too much time in Church callings, not being willing to delegate or take a day off when the family had special needs.  The same daughter once told me "If I had a flat tire by the side of the road, and someone else did too, I believe you would have helped them first."  That's a sad burden to carry.  But it is what it is... a learning experience.  She's an adult now with teenagers of her own.  Hopefully, her experiences growing up have taught her to be a more sensitive Mom.   Actually, I would feel a lot better about it if she could let it go and acknowledge that we had a lot of love in our family, and support for each child.  But forgiveness isn't easy for her, and probably rightfully so.  Some things just take time to sort out.  At that point, we can hopefully learn to accept a sincere apology, and maybe even give one.  That would go a long way toward peace in a relationship, and personal peace, I believe.  She is a faithful and active member of the Church.  But she still occasionally reminds us that growing up in our home was not easy.  Ouch. I wish we had known early on.  But we didn't recognize our failing in that regard until after the fact.

On another topic, today I heard that 1 in 6 children (or something to that effect) would be sexually abused in one way or another during their lifetime.  More than 95 percent of the perpetrators are men, according to the report I heard.  If that is true, that means a lot of the men we come in contact with every day have participated in some activity that another person would consider abuse.  Joseph Smith said "I was left to all kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature."

In light of the recent conversations, I wonder if many during a self centered time in their lives "did not recognize," as you say, that their behavior could be considered offensive to anyone.  I wonder how many men have hurt or offended people unaware, thinking their behavior was welcomed or reciprocal.  

Years ago, I read about President Kimball.  I think he was in a hospital elevator, or maybe he was having his car worked on and someone used profanity.  He responded with a rebuke "Please, don't use that name like that.  You are talking about my Lord."  The result was that the offending party apologized.  He said "I didn't realize that what I was saying was offensive.  I'm sorry."  Hopefully, the conversations we are having will raise all our consciousness to know how we should treat one another.  There are no excuses for rudeness or abuse.  I think if people thought about it, we would be more caring and protective of everyone in this very challenging world.

I hope I'm not too far out there in my comments.  I think it's a conversation that needs to happen somehow.  There needs to be some acknowledgement that wrongs have been done, lives can be lived with fewer regrets if one takes a moment to think before they act.  

Edited October 22, 2017 by Meerkat

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

...

I hope I'm not too far out there in my comments.  I think it's a conversation that needs to happen somehow.  There needs to be some acknowledgement that wrongs have been done, and we can live lives with fewer regrets if we only take a moment to think before we act.  

You are not too far out. I loved what you said.  Good example of where change starts. 

I hope your daughter can forgive you someday soon for both of your sakes. 

[Calm]

Meerkat, I can relate a lot to your daughter's situation.  I was the substitute mother from my younger brother and sister when my mom got sick.  Also when we were sent to live with Grandma who turned out to be an incompetent caregiver, possibly her later dementia had already started because there was some bizarre reactions, potentially dangerous ones.  When we told our parents of her issues and how miserable we were for oh so many reasons, but mainly because we were scared, their reaction was not to come rescue us, but to scold us.  Mom refused to talk on the phone or visit even for Christmas  because it was too emotionally difficult for her, Dad came out and in his clueless way of comforting told us we were there because we weren't good enough to stay home while the house was getting ready to be sold.  We were too much trouble.

Years later when Mom found out Dad said that she was horrified.  She insists they sent us there because she thought we would have lots of fun because Grandma did lots of social things (wishful thinking or lying to herself, she would have known better if she had thought about it or talked to her mom at any length...Grandma was perpetually flustered by our presence).  She has apologized that they made such a bad mistake over and over and over again for the last 40 years, but each time it feels shallow and empty because she makes excuses for not immediately coming to get us nor is there any recognition of what she did by refusing to talk to us was wrong...instead "it was the best I could do" and we have to understand her issues while there is no sense that she understands ours, we have to comfort her because of her fear she failed us ...so she robs us of the right to feel abandoned, making me and I believe at least my older sister feel abandoned all over again.  And honestly when she tells me yet again how sad she was that when I came home the sparkle was gone from my eyes, she misses that so much, I feel like I want to smack her.  Why couldn't she care that much about our feelings when we were begging her to at least come see us?

Now this may be just a problem with communication and Mom means something that she didn't clearly communicate.  Unfortunately by the time I figured out what I really needed to say so it might be clearer what I needed for her to recognize, had dug through the layers of confusion from viewing it as a kid and having some unrealistic views of my mom's choices, Mom had a hard life that I didn't feel I could add to at that time.  Now that her life is easier, she has dementia so it would only cause her unnecessary pain if I said anything, so I have accepted I am going to have to live without the satisfaction of her understanding my POV.

 But I have some advice based on my experience (which is why I have told the story) and that is if you haven't already, ask your daughter what she believes she needs to hear from you in order to place that part of her life in peaceful order.  And how she thinks you all should go about getting there.  It won't work if you approach from how you feel about it, in all probability.  Mom was always so concerned when we talked about it that we understand why she did things, she never asked us about what we wanted to say, what mattered to us.  It became her hardship and her needing comfort, not us.  When Dad found out I hated his autobiography because the me in it was a total fabrication so he didn't have to face his mistakes, his solution was not to ask me what I needed, but to offer to fly up to Canada for an hour and talk in the airport.  Since I still had nightmares surrounding him and airports (he worked for a major airline so when we traveled as little kids and teens, we had to get there early to travel standby, so he would dump us at the gate and then run off to do work and show up right before it felt like the plane would leave and there were other stressful moments that amounted to abandonment), it would be one of the last places I would want to open up in.  Plus an hour, really?  That was the value he put on investing in  mending our relationship?  He saw it as opening a door, him making the first move because he was willing to come up.  I saw it as yet another fitting me into the few spare moments of his life, he couldn't even be bothered to come to my home 20 minutes from the airport to allow me a comfortable, safe place to open up.

Your daughter is likely interpreting your interaction differently than you.  You might need to find out more of how she sees things.

The way you write here I doubt you approach things quite like my dad, but thought I would mention it just in case.  Sometimes we get in habits with our families and don't really think about what we are doing.  We need to ask first what others need before telling them if we are trying to help them.  They may need time to figure it out once they find out they have input into the process.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Calm

[Meerkat]

I think your advice is excellent.   I've thought of it for others.  I don't know why I didn't think of it for myself.  Someone dear to me was surprised by divorce in her happy family at age 14.  Her mother left her father for someone else.  All those many years of seething anger at the interloper, of being ignored by her mother, the years and years of tears in the night (even as an aging adult child,) of never being asked by her mother "How did the divorce affect you?"  "I'm sorry,"  or other healing words, if healing words there may be.

Reading about your situation, I can relate to your dad, who saw himself as an "ultimately content and independent man."  That's how I see myself, and have seen myself through all the vicissitudes of my life.  At the same time, I always felt  compassion and empathy for others, especially if they were outside my own family.  Maybe I felt they (my family members) were an extension of me, and what I felt were my strengths and attitudes.  For whatever reason, I had a blind spot for all of them, for a good long time.  I can tell you it was not out of lack of love or commitment.  I see it as a blind spot caused by being trapped in my own brain and perceptions.  

I asked the woman, whose parents had divorced, if she thought about having a conversation with her mother.  Her response was "She would never hear or believe me.  It would be all about her, how she did her best, how I couldn't know what her life had been like," etc., etc.  "She could never come around to considering what my life had been like because of her choices.  It would be too hurtful for her to imagine."  

How many of us are trapped in our own view of things?  Probably most of us.  It takes a real shock to the system, a time of desperate soul searching and fearless taking of personal inventories to pull us out of the box we are in.  For us, it was seeing two of our loved ones become trapped in addiction, and seeing our once happy lives fall apart.  No sleep.  Difficulty managing simple daily duties due to concern for our loved ones.  I went to the family support twelve step meeting first.  My wife was too embarrassed to attend.  After a few months, she did, cautiously.  It was there, we began working on ourselves.  We could see ourselves begin to move from a state of excusing ourselves and blaming our beloved addicts, to a state of considering their perception of things and how our actions and attitudes made them feel like they couldn't open up to us.  We went from private self congratulation, justification and blaming to trying to understand better, and only being concerned about loving, understanding and encouraging our loved ones.  It's not like turning on a light switch.  It takes time-- years to work our way out of that box and into the light.  So I'm not surprised when I hear about a parent who clings to the mantra "I did the best I could" rather than allow their children to express their unhappiness without judging them.   What if we (parents) did cause an offense?  What if they have a point?  Can we be open to It? If so, they may find healing. We may save our relationship.

I'm not so concerned about being right anymore.  Love seems to overcome all that ego.  Our loved ones, who we have been estranged from for nearly four years, are reaching out to us and we to them now, in love and desire to understand.  Yesterday, I spoke with one of them on the phone for about an hour.  It was wonderful.  And I don't care about my privacy anymore.  I'm not embarrassed about any of this.  I wouldn't hesitate to discuss these things, without naming names out of respect for their privacy, in front of the ward if asked.  There is no need for families to suffer in silence, in the dark miserable box of their own misperceptions.  Yet most do.

The divorced mother could not hear what her actions had done.  Her walls of self protection have been built too high and thick, and are impenetrable.  And it's almost too late to broach the subject.  So like you, we just love her and try to be as protective and understanding as we can be.  It's not easy.  It's not perfect.

I like words from Reinhold Niebuhr's poem The Serenity Prayer:

"Living one day at a time; 
enjoying one moment at a time; 
accepting hardships as the pathway to peace; 
taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it; 
trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will; 
that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
forever in the next. 
Amen."

And That's the way I see it.  Thanks again for your wonderful story and counsel Calm.  It was welcome and appreciated.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Meerkat

[Calm]

You are a good guy, Meerkat.

I should also say I believe my mom and dad were great parents.  I look at their parents and marvel at how far they got before it became too far.  And my grandparents were great for their generation.

I wouldn't be discussing them this way except that just because they were loving and wonderful doesn't mean they didn't screw up bigtime here and there and it isn't helpful to pretend everything is rosy when it isn't.

It is horrible learning you hurt someone you loved.  It is not always a reality that a parent who wants to protect and guide can handle, especially if they also have to realize that it wasn't for the noble purposes they told themselves (Dad always said he was protecting Mom), but out of fear of their own pain).

I am sure that in some fashion my kids will come to realize I unnecessarily caused them pain one day, they currently assure me I haven't yet.  I prefer that I learned from my parents' messes how not to do things, at least a little better according to them and not have them be the ones going through what I did while I avoided the major trauma.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Calm

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are a good guy, Meerkat.

I agree.

 

[jkwilliams]

On 10/21/2017 at 1:39 AM, Calm said:

One of the reasons I want to see how various men deal with negativity is so I better understand my husband's approach and what he needs to heal when wounded (he is a sweet guy, when he gets hurt it is deep).  His way is completely foreign to my own way and quite unlike my father's or brothers'.  (We are fixers, he is a denier.)

I can relate to that. It took me 20 years to finally confront my roommate about what happened. We ended up working at the same place for about 5 years, and I never brought it up. It was too painful and embarrassing. And for a long time I wondered if I had any responsibility, if I had somehow given him the idea that the feeling was mutual. Finally a therapist suggested I needed to deal with it, so I tracked him down, and he apologized. It was good to know it wasn’t my fault, that I hadn’t done anything wrong. 

I went back and forth about whether to share my experience. Anyone who knows me knows I tend to overshare, but I decided I needed to say it. I’m sorry it made some people uncomfortable. 

[Rain]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I can relate to that. It took me 20 years to finally confront my roommate about what happened. We ended up working at the same place for about 5 years, and I never brought it up. It was too painful and embarrassing. And for a long time I wondered if I had any responsibility, if I had somehow given him the idea that the feeling was mutual. Finally a therapist suggested I needed to deal with it, so I tracked him down, and he apologized. It was good to know it wasn’t my fault, that I hadn’t done anything wrong. 

I went back and forth about whether to share my experience. Anyone who knows me knows I tend to overshare, but I decided I needed to say it. I’m sorry it made some people uncomfortable. 

I'm glad you shared, if only so others don't feel so alone.