Degrees Within the Celestial Kingdom

[Jeanne]

JLHPROF...sorry I misunderstood..

[Glenn101]

16 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Yo...this is something we agree on!  That being said, why would we need the church/covenants to get into the Kingdom??  I think I know what you are going to say..but to me, I have just as much chance of building and getting into the Kingdom as anyone.  By being honest, charitable and following Christ..I should be able to see His face.  I believe that all those covenants.(Temple and otherwise) are a test of obedience to a church..not the building of a Kingdom of God.

I believe that the church is the (imperfect) representative, the organ of the Kingdom of God here on this earth. Christ started a Church for some reason, and he restored it through Joseph Smith, for some reason. The church is the framework, the guide Christ uses to enable all of the ordinances, etc. that Christ and the Father know are needed for exaltation. Whenever we observe and ordinance, etc, we are following the instructions that Christ has given us through His prophets.

Glenn

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Okay, I'll be a little more direct now. We are the Church and we are the members of the kingdom of God, so when we use all of our time and talents and resources, etc, to build ourselves up, to make our lives better, we are building up the Church and the kingdom of God.

Nothing at all wrong about that. We are not covenanting to use everything we have or can get for strangers or those outside of the Church or the kingdom of God.

As JLHPROF said, and I agree with, the church and the Kingdom of God are not synonymous though I understand they are often treated that way.

I think the covenant is intended as it literally states. Consecrate all that we have or will have to the Church so that they can do what leaders believe will build the kingdom. The argument that we are the church doesn't fly in this situation because we have no role in utilizing the resources contributed to the Church. We don't get to decide how the Church spends its money or resources. We don't even get to know how it was spent after the fact. This is an example of Big C Church overriding the little c church of the people. IMO.

[Jeanne]

Just now, Glenn101 said:

I believe that the church is the (imperfect) representative, the organ of the Kingdom of God here on this earth. Christ started a Church for some reason, and he restored it through Joseph Smith, for some reason. The church is the framework, the guide Christ uses to enable all of the ordinances, etc. that Christ and the Father know are needed for exaltation. Whenever we observe and ordinance, etc, we are following the instructions that Christ has given us through His prophets.

Glenn

There  is just so much symbolism I guess..that doesn't (to me) have much to do with being a loving, caring and Christlike person.  Imagine not having to do all that Temple work for people who already qualify in every way to be a part of building.,,(by example of good works) and existing in the Kingdom of God.  I just can't believe that being married or not ..or symbolism of Temple rites are equivelant or required for exaltation.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

As JLHPROF said, and I agree with, the church and the Kingdom of God are not synonymous though I understand they are often treated that way.

I think the covenant is intended as it literally states. Consecrate all that we have or will have to the Church so that they can do what leaders believe will build the kingdom. The argument that we are the church doesn't fly in this situation because we have no role in utilizing the resources contributed to the Church. We don't get to decide how the Church spends its money or resources. We don't even get to know how it was spent after the fact. This is an example of Big C Church overriding the little c church of the people. IMO.

And I believe you are wrong about that.

As members of the Church and the kingdom of God we decide for ourselves how we will use all that we have and can get, even when we covenant to use all that we have to build up the Church and the kingdom of God.

So we either follow through with that covenant, or we don't, and each step along the way we are deciding for ourselves how to use it and who we want to make decisions for us.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yes. I will allow that.

If the rules for the Final Judgement were up to you I would be terrified.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If the rules for the Final Judgement were up to you I would be terrified.

I've always kind of felt like we will judge ourselves.  It's not like we are going to be able to lie.

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If the rules for the Final Judgement were up to you I would be terrified.

5 minutes is all I have asked for.

But I will still be open to good ideas.

[stemelbow]

Yeah..after skimming this thread I we're as likely to learn that there are three degrees overall as there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. 

[Glenn101]

40 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

There  is just so much symbolism I guess..that doesn't (to me) have much to do with being a loving, caring and Christlike person.  Imagine not having to do all that Temple work for people who already qualify in every way to be a part of building.,,(by example of good works) and existing in the Kingdom of God.  I just can't believe that being married or not ..or symbolism of Temple rites are equivelant or required for exaltation.

Do you still believe in exaltation??? Doing temple work, to me, is one of the greatest examples of doing Christ like work. Caring for people that you do not know and performing ordinances for them that they cannot do for themselves. LDS theology leads me to believe that the majority of the work will be done during the Millennium. So why worry about doing it now??? Because we do care.

Glenn

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Do you still believe in exaltation??? Doing temple work, to me, is one of the greatest examples of doing Christ like work. Caring for people that you do not know and performing ordinances for them that they cannot do for themselves. LDS theology leads me to believe that the majority of the work will be done during the Millennium. So why worry about doing it now??? Because we do care.

Glenn

I would love to do things for my ancestors...and yes, I still believe there is exaltation..surprising I know.  But I just don't believe that any Temple ordinances are necessary, Geneology itself is a wonderful thing.  Learning about our ancestors and honoring their sacrifices is a way to care about them.  Pictures..stories..diaries passed down is always a good thing  But I think all that Temple stuff is a waste of time.  If LDS theology is true...then there is time for them during the 1000 years to accept and/or help themselves.  It is up to them.  I don't feel it is my place to baptize or seal without their consent.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Jeanne

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Jeanne said:

I would love to do things for my ancestors...and yes, I still believe there is exaltation..surprising I know.  But I just don't believe that any Temple ordinances are necessary,

Based on what?
I know you believe in Christ.  Do you not believe his teachings on the subjects of salvation and exaltation?

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

There  is just so much symbolism I guess..that doesn't (to me) have much to do with being a loving, caring and Christlike person.  Imagine not having to do all that Temple work for people who already qualify in every way to be a part of building.,,(by example of good works) and existing in the Kingdom of God.  I just can't believe that being married or not ..or symbolism of Temple rites are equivelant or required for exaltation.

I have learned that our Father and our Lord are sticklers for details, wanting everything to be in order and wanting there to be easy ways for anyone who helps them with their work to see whether or not things are in order.

Baptism for example is a visible way for someone to show that they believe in the Lord and are willing to do what he has told them to do.  

And other covenants have a visible aspect as well. Even temple recommends show something about what someone has said they believe and some things they are willing to do.

It's not only for our Father and our Lord to see, but also for others who help them to see. 

Got this? Check. Okay, you're clear to move on.

Satan is not that way. He has an "anything goes" attitude.

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Ahab

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Based on what?
I know you believe in Christ.  Do you not believe his teachings on the subjects of salvation and exaltation?

I do believe in a salvation and exaltation of sorts,I just don't believe that the Temple/ordinances are necessary.  It is up to them anyway.  I might as well be a Jew  in this sense.  It is not my place to do work for them ..unnecessary work...when in their lives and quality of lives they have achieved all that is good..by example and according to their own conscience and knowledge, achieved Christlike behavior.  I thnk that Temple work is just a way of the church demanding an obedience...not to God..but to a church. 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

I do believe in a salvation and exaltation of sorts,I just don't believe that the Temple/ordinances are necessary.  It is up to them anyway.  I might as well be a Jew  in this sense.  It is not my place to do work for them ..unnecessary work...when in their lives and quality of lives they have achieved all that is good..by example and according to their own conscience and knowledge, achieved Christlike behavior.  I thnk that Temple work is just a way of the church demanding an obedience...not to God..but to a church. 

But "Christlike behavior" would imply doing what Christ did.
And Christ did participate in ordinances.

I've never understood reducing Christ's life to the one attribute of charity.  Christ's life was not so non-denominational as we like to think.

In addition to requiring us to follow his commandments He stated:

• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.  (Salvation)
• John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. (Exaltation)
• Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
• John 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
  7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

And I am convinced that many references to the garments of Christ refer not to his clothing, but to the temple garment.
Christ participated in Temple ordinances very similar to the ones restored by Joseph Smith.  That is my opinion.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I have learned that our Father and our Lord are sticklers for details, wanting everything to be in order and wanting there to be easy ways for anyone who helps them with their work to see whether or not things are in order.

Baptism for example is a visible way for someone to show that they believe in the Lord and are willing to do what he has told them to do.  

And other covenants have a visible aspect as well. Even temple recommends show something about what someone has said they believe and some things they are willing to do.

It's not only for our Father and our Lord to see, but also for others who help them to see. 

Got this? Check. Okay, you're clear to move on.

Satan is not that way. He has an "anything goes" attitude.

 

No, the Father and the Son are not sticklers for details.

[Glenn101]

39 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I would love to do things for my ancestors...and yes, I still believe there is exaltation..surprising I know.  But I just don't believe that any Temple ordinances are necessary, Geneology itself is a wonderful thing.  Learning about our ancestors and honoring their sacrifices is a way to care about them.  Pictures..stories..diaries passed down is always a good thing  But I think all that Temple stuff is a waste of time.  If LDS theology is true...then there is time for them during the 1000 years to accept and/or help themselves.  It is up to them.  I don't feel it is my place to baptize or seal without their consent.

Thanks for your response Jeanne. But, in response to the bolded part, just remember that the work in the Millennium will still be for people that we cannot see nor converse with. They will be people who have yet attained a ressurrection. We will have no idea whether they will accept that baptism or any of the other ordinances. We will be doing so because we love them (even though we will not know most of them) and we will be fervently hoping that they will accept those ordinances. That is all that we can do, i.e. give them that chance.

It is more than likely that there will be many who will reject that chance. Agency does not end at mortal death. It is an eternal principle and was operative in the pre-existence, in the Council in Heaven. We will not know, will not be able to foretell who will accept or choose to deny the Gospel. It will be up to the recipients to accept or reject.

57 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I thnk that Temple work is just a way of the church demanding an obedience...not to God..but to a church

I am curious as to why you feel this way. I hope that you will agree with the JHLPROF quote "ark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." No one makes anyone do Temple work. My last TR nor any of the previous ones have ever asked how many ordinances I had performed vicariously. The work is all for those who cannot do it for themselves. The many people who never even heard of Christ for one. They have to hear to be able to believe, then what???? Still in where without baptism.

Do you think that Paul was preaching a false Doctrine of Baptism for the Dead when he so famously noted "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" Or was he preaching against the doctrine of the Sadducees who did not believe in a physical resurrection?

And then, finally, we are Christ's Church.

 

Glenn

[Glenn101]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, the Father and the Son are not sticklers for details.

Maybe I could have forgone the immersion path and had a Sun Crest Grape poured over my head for my baptism??? 

Glenn

[Ahab]

Just now, The Nehor said:

No, the Father and the Son are not sticklers for details.

Organizing order from chaos and wanting everything in its proper place are tell tale signs of NOT being sticklers for details, ya think?

Sticklers they are. Very big on stickling.

 

[Darren10]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's a philosophical question? Without asking these types of questions it becomes difficult to dig into the how and why of the theology beyond just saying we believe it because X said so. The appeal to authority doesn't satisfy me. I'm trying to understand the theology and the holes therein a little more deeply.

And that's all good. My reply to you is based not only on your asking about God providing lower levels of glory because that would allow more happiness for those who do not want to accept the higher degrees (accept the responsibilities associated with them) but on past comments you have made. What you have asked have already been bantered around and I am pretty sure I have even heard them spoken by church authorities. If so then it is prudent to not accept them as standard or foundational beliefs as per LDS theology but as a speculative peek into the results of the foundational beliefs. Remember that your question came in line of mine saying that God wants exaltation for us all and nothing less and that we should align our will and desires to His. Mormons absolutely believe that happiness is being in God's presence and not being in His presence is Hell. Using this as a foundational belief I conclude that we should all strive for exaltation and nothing less for that is precisely what God strives for us.

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, the Father and the Son are not sticklers for details.

Yeah, that's why we repeat the sacrament prayer if we change even one word.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

As JLHPROF said, and I agree with, the church and the Kingdom of God are not synonymous though I understand they are often treated that way.

I think the covenant is intended as it literally states. Consecrate all that we have or will have to the Church so that they can do what leaders believe will build the kingdom. The argument that we are the church doesn't fly in this situation because we have no role in utilizing the resources contributed to the Church. We don't get to decide how the Church spends its money or resources. We don't even get to know how it was spent after the fact. This is an example of Big C Church overriding the little c church of the people. IMO.

The Church's "new" self-reliance initiative was rolled out well over a year ago, perhaps the first that was not piloted in the USA first. Stakes in the USA should be well underway in  training ward councils and ward specialists at this point. I would recommend participating in the actual courses, as they facilitate great clarity to and understanding of the various doctrines that tie the temporal and spiritual together, Consecration, the building up of Zion (temporally and spiritually) and especially the role of the priesthood keys in transforming temporal endeavors into a spiritually significant step forward for the saints, individually and collectively. The statistics are quite impressive.

https://www.lds.org/topics/pef-self-reliance?lang=eng&old=true

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, Darren10 said:

And that's all good. My reply to you is based not only on your asking about God providing lower levels of glory because that would allow more happiness for those who do not want to accept the higher degrees (accept the responsibilities associated with them) but on past comments you have made. What you have asked have already been bantered around and I am pretty sure I have even heard them spoken by church authorities. If so then it is prudent to not accept them as standard or foundational beliefs as per LDS theology but as a speculative peek into the results of the foundational beliefs. Remember that your question came in line of mine saying that God wants exaltation for us all and nothing less and that we should align our will and desires to His. Mormons absolutely believe that happiness is being in God's presence and not being in His presence is Hell. Using this as a foundational belief I conclude that we should all strive for exaltation and nothing less for that is precisely what God strives for us.

Even so, the lower two levels of the Celestial Kingdom are not exaltation yet still dwell with God. So...perhaps God doesn't desire/require exaltation for all children knowing that some would be happier without it.

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Yeah, that's why we repeat the sacrament prayer if we change even one word.

That's us trying to be sticklers on God's behalf. I don't believe God gave us the prayer word for word. Revelation rarely works that way through Joseph. So we are attributing the human desire for stickleriness to God. We require the prayers to be repeated because it's a cultural norm. Yet sometimes a bishop will allow an imperfect prayer to pass. Does that mean God doesn't honor the sacrament in that congregation? I don't think so.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Even so, the lower two levels of the Celestial Kingdom are not exaltation yet still dwell with God. So...perhaps God doesn't desire/require exaltation for all children knowing that some would be happier without it.

I agree with the first part.  Not so convinced of the second.

I think God would love all his children to be exalted, but he cannot do it if they will not obey the requisite laws.
But yes, exaltation is reserved for the top degree of the Celestial Kingdom.  For the others it is salvation in God's kingdom, but not to rule and reign with Christ.