Degrees Within the Celestial Kingdom

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Are you speaking of proxy marriages in LDS Temples, perhaps during the Millennium?

Read back to where cinepro seemed bewildered at the idea that there will be singles in the celestial kingdom.

I was talking about how everyone who wants to be married can be.

So apparently some people will just opt out.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know it seems like messengers only come once in a blue moon on our planet.  If there are billions of them going to all the countless planets out there, to the innumerable people going through mortality, then perhaps that means they'll keep busy.  But all of this feels like speculation.  Heaven could be the most boring place in existence for all we know.  We just suppose it is not. 

Sounds like you are in a blue funk, stemebow.  Of course, we can define everything as speculation just out of sheer orneryness.  Doesn't make sense in light of the promises the Lord has made to his Saints:

I Cor 2:9 Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

D&C 76:18 Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.
19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.
20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;
21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

[SeekerB]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I thought those two areas were reserved for those who were pretty faithful but never got married.  They become eternal servants to those who make it higher.  I'd probably rather end up in Terrestrial or Telestial. 

If you think they are servants in the Celestial Kingdom, why would the lower kingdoms not be servants as well?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Read back to where cinepro seemed bewildered at the idea that there will be singles in the celestial kingdom.

I was talking about how everyone who wants to be married can be.

So apparently some people will just opt out.

I understand that some will simply opt out, and that is just fine with me.  What I was asking you is about those who were unable to marry for one reason or another (died before age 8, died before able to marry, no one would accept their proposal, etc.).  Do you see them being paired up with a  mate by proxy?

[Bobbieaware]

11 minutes ago, SeekerB said:

If you think they are servants in the Celestial Kingdom, why would the lower kingdoms not be servants as well?

You're correct. Those in the lower kingdoms will be servants as well.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.(D&C 76)

Edited March 30, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I understand that some will simply opt out, and that is just fine with me.  What I was asking you is about those who were unable to marry for one reason or another (died before age 8, died before able to marry, no one would accept their proposal, etc.).  Do you see them being paired up with a  mate by proxy?

If they are they would be among those who would be married in the celestial kingdom, not those who will not be married in the celestial kingdom.

So, no. The ones still single in the celestial kingdom will apparently have opted out for some reason.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If they are they would be among those who would be married in the celestial kingdom, not those who will not be married in the celestial kingdom.

So, no. The ones still single in the celestial kingdom will apparently have opted out for some reason.

So you reject the notion of proxy marriage for those not able to marry in this life?

[Ahab]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

So you reject the notion of proxy marriage for those not able to marry in this life?

No. I'm sure that some who were not sealed to a spouse in this phase of their mortal life will be sealed in the spirit world by proxy. But apparently only some, and not all, will be sealed to a spouse before their resurrection.

Do you think everyone will be sealed to a spouse by the time they are resurrected? 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

No. I'm sure that some who were not sealed to a spouse in this phase of their mortal life will be sealed in the spirit world by proxy. But apparently only some, and not all, will be sealed to a spouse before their resurrection.

Do you think everyone will be sealed to a spouse by the time they are resurrected? 

I don't know.  I wonder whether there is specific doctrine on the matter.  After all, it is not the fault of those who die under 8 that they were not able to marry, nor is it the fault of every single person that they were never able to marry -- many dying before reaching marriagable age, perhaps killed in war, etc.  Do you know of any sealings by proxy for such people?  If so, how is it justified at the temples?

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

One is for Republicans; the other for Democrats.  Each will believe that they have attained the middle degree of the celestial kingdom, while the other guys were assigned to the lowest. 

I am an unmarried moderate. Can I voluntarily downgrade a kingdom or two to avoid this?

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't know.  I wonder whether there is specific doctrine on the matter.  After all, it is not the fault of those who die under 8 that they were not able to marry, nor is it the fault of every single person that they were never able to marry -- many dying before reaching marriagable age, perhaps killed in war, etc.  Do you know of any sealings by proxy for such people?  If so, how is it justified at the temples?

As I said earlier, we are told that everyone will have the opportunity to receive every blessing, including the blessings associated with a righteous marriage under God's law. Including people who died before they became 8 years old.

And no I don't know of any cases like that, and think the Millennium will be the time when most will get those opportunities if they haven't already by then.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am an unmarried moderate. Can I voluntarily downgrade a kingdom or two to avoid this?

Yes. I will allow that.

[Tsuzuki]

The Kingdoms of Glory, and their subdivisions, seem like a pretty obvious reference to the Sephiroth on the Tree of Life, which Joseph Smith was likely studying at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(Kabbalah)

Celestial Kingdom = The Supernal Triad of Kether, Chokmah, and Binah
Terrestrial Kingdom = The Ethical Triad of Chesed, Geburah, and Tiphareth
Telestial Kingdom = The Astral Triad of Netzach, Hod, and Yesod
Mortal Life = Malkuth

Edited March 31, 2017 by Tsuzuki

[HappyJackWagon]

15 hours ago, Darren10 said:

If I get your tone correct, this is an example of how I think you get confused over nothing. Here you are taking speculative ideas, howbeit they may have merit, and placing them on equal status to scripture including modern-day scripture which includes official positions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

It's a philosophical question? Without asking these types of questions it becomes difficult to dig into the how and why of the theology beyond just saying we believe it because X said so. The appeal to authority doesn't satisfy me. I'm trying to understand the theology and the holes therein a little more deeply.

[HappyJackWagon]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

If there is anything in the 5 major covenants of the temple that you aren't already keeping before entering you probably shouldn't be entering.  There are no surprise covenants in the temple.  The same goes for the covenants of the initiatory and sealing.  The same goes for the covenants of secrecy.

No surprises.  You promise nothing in the temple that should come as any kind of surprise.

I partially agree with you. I think our temple prep is woefully inadequate. There is no reason those covenants couldn't be discussed in preparation. So the "official" preparation doesn't do much to prepare the individual for the temple, nor does the temple recommend process unless the leader goes above and beyond the regular interview to explain and prepare the individual.

(We do not covenant in the temple not to discuss the covenants) The most surprising thing in the temple for many is the covenant to consecrate all that you have or will have to the church. Not to God, but the church. God is our witness that we are consecrating to the church instead of the church (members in attendance) witnessing that we consecrate everything to God. That's an important distinction that surprises some people.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I partially agree with you. I think our temple prep is woefully inadequate. There is no reason those covenants couldn't be discussed in preparation. So the "official" preparation doesn't do much to prepare the individual for the temple, nor does the temple recommend process unless the leader goes above and beyond the regular interview to explain and prepare the individual.

(We do not covenant in the temple not to discuss the covenants) The most surprising thing in the temple for many is the covenant to consecrate all that you have or will have to the church. Not to God, but the church. God is our witness that we are consecrating to the church instead of the church (members in attendance) witnessing that we consecrate everything to God. That's an important distinction that surprises some people.

It is important to recognize that we are to consecrate for a specific purpose however.  Our consecrations are to serve a particular goal currently being presided over by the Church.
That goal is where our focus should be, on what we are consecrating FOR.

And I agree with you about our temple prep.  It's virtually non-existent.  Which is why too many members have no idea what the temple means, although I am frequently pleasantly surprised by the many members who do.

Edited March 31, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

(We do not covenant in the temple not to discuss the covenants) The most surprising thing in the temple for many is the covenant to consecrate all that you have or will have to the church. Not to God, but the church. God is our witness that we are consecrating to the church instead of the church (members in attendance) witnessing that we consecrate everything to God. That's an important distinction that surprises some people.

(Yes we can talk about the covenants, just not reveal the signs and tokens...even if others have revealed them)

Anyway, we covenant to use all we have to build up the kingdom of God, using our time and talents and resources, etc, all that we have and all God may give us. Not "to" the Church, but "to build up" the kingdom of God (including the Church).

[HappyJackWagon]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

(Yes we can talk about the covenants, just not reveal the signs and tokens...even if others have revealed them)

Anyway, we covenant to use all we have to build up the kingdom of God, using our time and talents and resources, etc, all that we have and all God may give us. Not "to" the Church, but "to build up" the kingdom of God (including the Church).

Pay attention to the language. We consecrate it to the church so it can presumably build up the kingdom of God. So we give all that we have (or at least be willing to) to the church and then expect the church to build the kingdom of God. It could easily be argued that this means we give all to the church so it can build itself, which is why transparency is important.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Pay attention to the language. We consecrate it to the church so it can presumably build up the kingdom of God. So we give all that we have (or at least be willing to) to the church and then expect the church to build the kingdom of God. It could easily be argued that this means we give all to the church so it can build itself, which is why transparency is important.

That is only true if you believe the Church and the Kingdom to be synonymous.  I do not.

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That is only true if you believe the Church and the Kingdom to be synonymous.  I do not.

Neither do I, which is why the covenant to consecrate to the church is surprising for many people. It's precisely because they think they should be consecrating to God, not one church which then decides how to build the "kingdom".

[CV75]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree with most of this but I have no idea what you mean with the part I bolded.

I think D&C 131 (Nauvoo period) is just adding the newly revealed eternal marriage to the list of things in the fulness you mentioned from D&C 76 & 88 (1832 Kirtland).
I agree that the fullness is required for exaltation.  If this section were written just 6 months later it probably would have added the Fulness of Priesthood ordinance in addition to Celestial marriage as a requirement for the top degree.  The prophet hadn't yet received the final ordinance.
 

This is partly why I do not see "celestial kingdom" in S&C 131 to mean "The Celestial Kingdom."

This hearkens back to the OP where it is suggested that the term in 131 is generic to the entire realm of resurrected life (regardless of glory or kingdom), and the term in 76 is specific to exaltation. I guess it depends on when the First Presidency and Twelve began formalizing and standardizing these terms.

[stemelbow]

17 hours ago, Darren10 said:

"Appearances" of angels is perhaps rare, angelic administrating to mankind, however, I think that is far far far more common than their appearances. 

I wonder what that takes in terms of energy for angels.  A wiggle of their magical finger perhaps? 

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That is only true if you believe the Church and the Kingdom to be synonymous.  I do not.

Yo...this is something we agree on!  That being said, why would we need the church/covenants to get into the Kingdom??  I think I know what you are going to say..but to me, I have just as much chance of building and getting into the Kingdom as anyone.  By being honest, charitable and following Christ..I should be able to see His face.  I believe that all those covenants.(Temple and otherwise) are a test of obedience to a church..not the building of a Kingdom of God.

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Pay attention to the language. We consecrate it to the church so it can presumably build up the kingdom of God. So we give all that we have (or at least be willing to) to the church and then expect the church to build the kingdom of God. It could easily be argued that this means we give all to the church so it can build itself, which is why transparency is important.

Okay, I'll be a little more direct now. We are the Church and we are the members of the kingdom of God, so when we use all of our time and talents and resources, etc, to build ourselves up, to make our lives better, we are building up the Church and the kingdom of God.

Nothing at all wrong about that. We are not covenanting to use everything we have or can get for strangers or those outside of the Church or the kingdom of God.

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Yo...this is something we agree on!  That being said, why would we need the church/covenants to get into the Kingdom??  I think I know what you are going to say..but to me, I have just as much chance of building and getting into the Kingdom as anyone.  By being honest, charitable and following Christ..I should be able to see His face.  I believe that all those covenants.(Temple and otherwise) are a test of obedience to a church..not the building of a Kingdom of God.

 

20 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Neither do I, which is why the covenant to consecrate to the church is surprising for many people. It's precisely because they think they should be consecrating to God, not one church which then decides how to build the "kingdom".

Jeanne, you are referring to God's kingdom in the next life.  The requirements for that Kingdom are accepting Christ, repenting, and being baptized.  That's what Christ stated.

"The Kingdom of God" as HJW and I were discussing relating to the temple refers to an organization on the earth that is in my opinion separate and distinct from the LDS Church.  In Joseph Smith's day they called it the "Council of Fifty" and it was to prepare the earth for Christ's political reign during the Millennial period.

The covenant of consecration is to give to the Church so they as the current administrative body representing God on the earth can use your time, talents, and resources to the building of that Kingdom and Zion on the earth in preparation for Christ's return.  It is not to build the Church per se, but to allow the Church the resources to establish Zion.  The Church is not Zion but a separate organization tasked with establishing Zion.

• Wikipedia: The Council of Fifty (also known as the Living Constitution, the Kingdom of God, or its name by revelation, The Kingdom of God and His Laws with the Keys and Power thereof, and Judgment in the Hands of His Servants, Ahman Christ) was a Latter Day Saint organization established by Joseph Smith in 1844 to symbolize and represent a future theocratic or theodemocratic "Kingdom of God" on the earth.[ Smith and his successor Brigham Young hoped to create this Kingdom in preparation for the Millennium and the Second Coming of Jesus.

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by JLHPROF