Degrees Within the Celestial Kingdom

[HappyJackWagon]

The church often teaches about the 3 degrees of glory. Within the highest glory, the Celestial Kingdom, there are also three subdivisions. It is taught that to achieve the highest level in the highest degree one must enter into celestial marriage. I further recall that the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom will be home to angels and those who will be servants, ie those who did not enter the covenant of celestial marriage. I cannot seem to recall who resides in the middle degree of the Celestial Kingdom. There seems to be very little taught about the 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom but I'd love to hear ideas or see references about it.

D&C 131:1-4

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

From an article by common consent I read this...

Quote

 What if the expression “celestial glory” were not intended as a technical term for the Celestial Kingdom, but in a generic sense, something like “yonder heavens”? In that event, the “three heavens or degrees” would not be subdegrees within the CK, but rather simply the same three degrees of glory spoken of in the Vision of D&C 76.

From D&C 76: 92 96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

Also, from another thread where we have been discussing the teaching the Jackson County, Missouri (Independence) was the location of the Garden of Eden, it has been argued by some that despite a number of different prophets/apostles teaching that in various talks, conference, books, and Ensign articles, that because we don't have anything directly from Joseph (Even though Brigham cites Joseph) that it is an unreliable teaching. But this common consent article raises the same point about the 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom.

Quote

First is the spare attestation of this teaching from the first generation of Mormonism. All we have for it is this one notation in the Clayton journal. As far as we can tell, neither Joseph nor anyone else ever spoke of it again.

The church seems to hang on to the concept of three degrees within the Celestial Kingdom but there really isn't much known or taught about it, beyond the highest level. What do we know about the bottom 2 levels of the Celestial Kingdom?

https://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/18/is-the-celestial-kingdom-divided-into-three-subdegrees/

Edited March 30, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[Gray]

As far as I know, there isn't any information about the bottom two levels. 

[HappyJackWagon]

22 minutes ago, Gray said:

As far as I know, there isn't any information about the bottom two levels. 

I recall reading (but I can't remember where) that fundamentalists teach that various degrees within the CK will be achieved based on the number of plural wives a man has and that exaltation is reserved specifically for men with 7 or more wives.

I'm wondering what value the idea of 3 degrees within the CK holds if no one knows anything about it.

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm wondering what value the idea of 3 degrees within the CK holds if no one knows anything about it.

I think the value comes in knowing that our station in the after-life is not static but that there may be some room for growth and development into godhood.  For example, it can give comfort to those righteous individuals who may not have had the opportunity to marry in this life in knowing that exaltation is still possible if not immediately available in the after life.  

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think the value comes in knowing that our station in the after-life is not static but that there may be some room for growth and development into godhood.  For example, it can give comfort to those righteous individuals who may not have had the opportunity to marry in this life in knowing that exaltation is still possible if not immediately available in the after life.  

How do you reconcile that idea to  D&C 131

D&C 131:1-4

Quote

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

 

[hope_for_things]

56 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The church seems to hang on to the concept of three degrees within the Celestial Kingdom but there really isn't much known or taught about it, beyond the highest level. What do we know about the bottom 2 levels of the Celestial Kingdom?

I don't have any quotes to back this up, just my memory of what I remember being taught in my youth.  I think this is from one of my Seminary classes, but I remember distinctly being taught that there would be progression within the Celestial Kingdom, so if you could make it into one of the bottom two levels, you could eventually progress to the higher levels.  

[Calm]

I think the value is it allows for more than just those sealed in marriage to be one with God.  It also allows for progression imo.  It can be useful for those who see things as all or nothing...it's not.

I personally doubt that such structure will be imposed, that God will approach it simply based on desire to abide by his commandments and be one with him and that this is likely quite varied....a lot depends on when we actually get assigned/judged for the kingdoms.  I don't see it as time dependent, but individually tailored; we get there when we get there.

I have heard the three levels speculated in two different ways, neither supported with scripture or revelation, imo.

Baptism, endowment, marriage sealing

Baptism, monogamous marriage sealing, plural marriage sealing (older, fundamentalist approach)

Both of these would eliminate progression within the kingdom though if marriage is truly something that can only be undergone prior to judgment.  I think this limitation of timing is due to our limited understanding of the ultimate male/female bond.  Either that or (and I think this highly likely) the Celestial Kingdom will be joined with Paradise, people who are preparing for exaltation, having been baptized, but not fully understanding the endowment or sealing and perhaps not yet participating in the last in a couple sense will be side by side with those who have moved to exaltation and beyond.  Whether this means only some are resurrected or all are, but some not yet 'judged' or whatever...it doesn't really matter to me.  The sole need for structure of the afterlife in my view is to visualize that people have a choice besides damnation and one pure state of salvation.  It is a similar approach to "in my father's house, there are many mansions".  There is a place that works in perfection for each and every individual that desires it.

I like Elder Oaks' comment below because he makes it clear we don't know that much about the afterlife.  We have enough knowledge for our needs, for comfort.  A minimal structure is provided for those who are uncomfortable with more organic ideas, but if we start imposing much more on top of it, I think that need can be driven either by fear of uncertainty or judgmentalism (think of Dante's setup).

Oaks:  "I have learned from many letters received since my re-marriage that many who have lost a spouse have questions about the effects of remarriage on family relationships in the eternities to come. There are so many different circumstances involving parents and children, and so little is known about the circumstances of the next life, that it is not possible to give answers to most questions. Some gospel doctrines are revealed only in part. Often, because we do not have these doctrines in their entirety, we cannot tell how they will apply to our individual circumstances.

"What we do know is sufficient for our mortal decisions. We know that we have a loving Heavenly Father and a loving Savior, Jesus Christ. We trust in the efficacy of temple covenants that have been honored by those who entered them. We trust in the divine plan of salvation and its loving Author. We know that the agency (power of choice) God has given us is a fundamental eternal principle, which He will not violate by forcing any of His children into family relationships they do not choose. We trust in God that all of this, including a second marriage in His temple, will, when covenants are honored, result in the greatest possible happiness for all concerned."

[stemelbow]

I thought those two areas were reserved for those who were pretty faithful but never got married.  They become eternal servants to those who make it higher.  I'd probably rather end up in Terrestrial or Telestial. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How do you reconcile that idea to  D&C 131

D&C 131:1-4

 

That would depend on how one defines "increase", it may not mean the same as all forms of progression.  Also, it seems to me to leave open the issue of timing as in at some point he must enter into the New and Everlasting Covenant of marriage, but it doesn't specify when (unless elsewhere in the section).  Until he does so, then progression in that particular area, that form of progression, "increase", will not occur, but others can.

I just don't see God who quite possibly walks through infinite space and time like we walk down to the park, work, school...being as obsessed about deadlines as we mortals are.  As time goes on (if it exists in the way we conceive it), God expands, refines, perfects his perfection, a completely different state of being that humans experience with age and cells degenerating and dying.  It is more like not only is he in the peak physical, mental and emotional fitness of his life, he is also constantly moving towards that moment of peak ability.  The only reason there might be time limits, imo, is our own need, but I think our agency preempts that (God gives us all opportunities for choice, it is not a game show with pressure on to choose and choose now.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I thought those two areas were reserved for those who were pretty faithful but never got married.  They become eternal servants to those who make it higher.  I'd probably rather end up in Terrestrial or Telestial. 

If the term was "companions" or "friends", would you be so eager to settle for different, likely less?

Edited March 30, 2017 by Calm

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 

D&C 131:1-4

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

 

The above seems to be the only revelation on the subject.

And the quote Calm provided from Elder Oaks would seem to put speculation in its proper place.

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

so little is known about the circumstances of the next life, that it is not possible to give answers to most questions. Some gospel doctrines are revealed only in part. Often, because we do not have these doctrines in their entirety, we cannot tell how they will apply to our individual circumstances.

"What we do know is sufficient for our mortal decisions. We know that we have a loving Heavenly Father and a loving Savior, Jesus Christ. We trust in the efficacy of temple covenants that have been honored by those who entered them. We trust in the divine plan of salvation and its loving Author. We know that the agency (power of choice) God has given us is a fundamental eternal principle, which He will not violate by forcing any of His children into family relationships they do not choose. We trust in God that all of this, including a second marriage in His temple, will, when covenants are honored, result in the greatest possible happiness for all concerned."

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by ksfisher

[Meadowchik]

The three kingdoms seem to me to be a little too neatly packaged.  This was always the case for me, since being an adult believer.

The Celestail Kingdom, however, seems somewhat contradictory--with the ministering angels--and vague, with the unembellished middle kingdom.  I can see why someone at BCC would try to winkle out a different meaning of the scriptures on it.

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-122-131/section-131-keys-to-exaltation?lang=eng

"D&C 131:1. What Are the Three Degrees in the Celestial Kingdom?

The Lord has not revealed to the Church who will live in two of the three degrees in the celestial kingdom. Any discussion on this topic is speculation. More has been revealed about the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, or exaltation. That is where the Father would have all of His children live if they keep His commandments. In Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70the Lord outlines the requirements to obtain the highest degree in the celestial kingdom."

[CV75]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The church often teaches about the 3 degrees of glory. Within the highest glory, the Celestial Kingdom, there are also three subdivisions. It is taught that to achieve the highest level in the highest degree one must enter into celestial marriage. I further recall that the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom will be home to angels and those who will be servants, ie those who did not enter the covenant of celestial marriage. I cannot seem to recall who resides in the middle degree of the Celestial Kingdom. There seems to be very little taught about the 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom but I'd love to hear ideas or see references about it.

D&C 131:1-4

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

From an article by common consent I read this...

From D&C 76: 92 96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

Also, from another thread where we have been discussing the teaching the Jackson County, Missouri (Independence) was the location of the Garden of Eden, it has been argued by some that despite a number of different prophets/apostles teaching that in various talks, conference, books, and Ensign articles, that because we don't have anything directly from Joseph (Even though Brigham cites Joseph) that it is an unreliable teaching. But this common consent article raises the same point about the 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom.

The church seems to hang on to the concept of three degrees within the Celestial Kingdom but there really isn't much known or taught about it, beyond the highest level. What do we know about the bottom 2 levels of the Celestial Kingdom?

https://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/18/is-the-celestial-kingdom-divided-into-three-subdegrees/

I think the lesson manuals teach that there are three degrees within the Celestial Kingdom, but I’ve not seen, and don’t know anything more about them other than what is written in D&C 131.

The phrasing of 131:4’s the other (singular) suggests there is only one other place to go than the highest degree. If we are to speak of 131:1 in terms of the “three heavens or degrees” as taught in D&C 76, this would identify the highest from 131:2 as the “Celestial” in D&C 76. The same terms laid out in 131:2 are pertain to the terms of exaltation in D&C 132, so “Celestial” and highest and exaltation would be the same heaven or degree.

This would make the other refer to a heaven or degree of “not-exaltation,” or either of the two other kingdoms from D&C 76 (the Telestial and the Terrestrial). Because of this, I too have thought that the term “celestial kingdom” in D&C 131:1 is a more general concept, leaving D&C 132:16-17 to refer to 131:4, or the same Telestial and the Terrestrial heavens or degrees where the inhabitants “are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. …therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.”

I think the issue on the other thread is not so much lacking a direct quote from Joseph Smith, but that what he is said to have said is not reflected in the scriptures he wrote down on the subject, so when providing good information, a GA should start there. Is Joseph Smith said to have said anything about three sub-divisions within the Celestial Kingdom, or did he write anything else about them other than D&C 76, as he wrote of sub-divisions in the City of Zion and how the plats would expand and fill the world?

[Calm]

Definition of increase is specific to children, not progression:

"Those who comply with the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and endure to the end gain the right to become eternal parents. The Prophet Joseph Smith, as he spoke verses 1–4 to William Clayton, stated: “Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.” (History of the Church, 5:391; see also Smith, Teachings, pp. 300–301.)"

Whether that means children by some form of reproduction/organization or adoption or mentoring/fostering or some other relationship we cannot fathom is open, imo.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

What do we know about the bottom 2 levels of the Celestial Kingdom?

Some aren't married by God's law, no sin but a choice they made to be single, and some haven't been through the mortal experience yet (we lived there before we came here to live our mortal lives)

[hope_for_things]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-122-131/section-131-keys-to-exaltation?lang=eng

"D&C 131:1. What Are the Three Degrees in the Celestial Kingdom?

The Lord has not revealed to the Church who will live in two of the three degrees in the celestial kingdom. Any discussion on this topic is speculation. More has been revealed about the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, or exaltation. That is where the Father would have all of His children live if they keep His commandments. In Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70the Lord outlines the requirements to obtain the highest degree in the celestial kingdom."

Its all speculation all the way down.  Started with JS and continues with us.  

[thesometimesaint]

46 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How do you reconcile that idea to  D&C 131

D&C 131:1-4

 

Because it isn't limited to just  this life.

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Because it isn't limited to just  this life.

So do we ignore this in favor of speculation?

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Edited March 30, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[Ahab]

53 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How do you reconcile that idea to  D&C 131

D&C 131:1-4

 

He can not have an increase WHILE HE IS SINGLE.

To have an increase he must get married.

[pogi]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

How do you reconcile that idea to  D&C 131

D&C 131:1-4

I always interpreted that to mean that someone could marry into a higher degree.  But who knows?  If you can't find a spouse after a thousand year millennium with a perfect body, then there probably isn't much hope for you!

Maybe the progression between degrees is simply to prepare us for godhood for those who are married. 

[thesometimesaint]

No speculation on my part. We do Temple work for our dead, so they have the opportunities they didn't have in this life.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

No speculation on my part. We do Temple work for our dead, so they have the opportunities they didn't have in this life.

Yes and I suspect that during the Millennium we'll be told about couples who met in the spirit world and have agreed to an eternal marriage who need us to seal them together.

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

No speculation on my part. We do Temple work for our dead, so they have the opportunities they didn't have in this life.

Yeah, but according to the Oaks quote, we know "so little about the circumstances of the next life". So we do temple work and we seal people together not really understanding how it will work. The teachings about the 3 degrees in the CK seem based almost entirely on speculation about the very vague versus from the OP. So we do all of that even though there is no explanation in scripture, even though we have the NT scripture in Mark about not marrying or being given in marriage.

I'll also note, that no one in the temple is married for deceased people but rather seal already married couples.

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't have any quotes to back this up, just my memory of what I remember being taught in my youth.  I think this is from one of my Seminary classes, but I remember distinctly being taught that there would be progression within the Celestial Kingdom, so if you could make it into one of the bottom two levels, you could eventually progress to the higher levels.  

I remember a back and forth on this topic growing up. Some saying there is progression in degrees of glory, others no. Based on the doctrines we have there seems to be a point where once given a degree of glory in the celestial Kingdom, there is no more progression of degrees. From my understanding, this will all be based on individual choice.