The Fate Of Those That Die Before Accountability?

[trim]

I recently reread Eugene England's essay, On Fidelity, Polygamy, and Celestial Marriage, and I was perplexed by this line:

 

I believe it is more likely and certainly more consistent with free agency that children who die and are thus, in the words of Doctrine and Covenants 137:7, “heirs of the celestial kingdom,” are not thus guaranteed exaltation but only guaranteed an opportunity for exaltation-

 

 

I have sat in a number of lessons and discussions that suggested that death before the age of accountability is a free pass to the Celestial Kingdom.  In fact, this assertion came up in my quorum meeting this week.  Brother England's belief sounds reasonable, but it seems to oppose the majority opinion.  

 

Do you know of any sources to support his opinion/interpretation?  

 

 

[thesometimesaint]

I recently reread Eugene England's essay, On Fidelity, Polygamy, and Celestial Marriage, and I was perplexed by this line:

 

 

I have sat in a number of lessons and discussions that suggested that death before the age of accountability is a free pass to the Celestial Kingdom.  In fact, this assertion came up in my quorum meeting this week.  Brother England's belief sounds reasonable, but it seems to oppose the majority opinion.  

 

Do you know of any sources to support his opinion/interpretation?  

 

All due respect to brother England but his opinion is a stretch in LDS Theology.

[ksfisher]

All due respect to brother England but his opinion is a stretch in LDS Theology.

 

But it does make more sense than the current belief that all children who die at 7 years 364 days are automatically exalted.  However, if you live one more day, you may be in trouble.

[Jeanne]

But it does make more sense than the current belief that all children who die at 7 years 364 days are automatically exalted.  However, if you live one more day, you may be in trouble.

Seriously, would God look at children/exaltation this way?  It does sound silly and more than sad. 

[Freedom]

Exaltation and residing in the celestial kingdom are not synonymous. D&C 131:1-4. 

[ksfisher]

Seriously, would God look at children/exaltation this way?  It does sound silly and more than sad. 

 

Just pointing about the silliness of it. 

 

I do believe in the infinite wisdom and love of our Father in Heaven.  I believe that he has prepared a means for all of his children to become heirs of the celestial kingdom, exaltation, and eternal life.  I also believe that we don't fully understand that process at the moment.

[Silhouette]

I have a daughter that died after living only four hours. At the time, I was taught that she would automatically attain exaltation. This has sustained me through some mighty tough times, and I know that she is serving a mission on the other side of the veil. I see no reason to make a change in what I was taught at the time.

Incidentally, the man who taught me this principle is my cousin, who served as the Atlanta temple President, so I reckon he knew what he was talking about.

[JLHPROF]

I believe that ALL of God's children will get an opportunity to be exalted.

But I also believe that there are irrevocable requirements for exaltation - marriage being one of them.

 

So, when speaking of those who die before accountability, I believe rather than being automatically exalted, they will be given the opportunity to claim an eternal companion and the exaltation that goes with it, without all the mortal trials they were too pure to go through.

[thesometimesaint]

But it does make more sense than the current belief that all children who die at 7 years 364 days are automatically exalted.  However, if you live one more day, you may be in trouble.

 

That's stretch too in LDS Theology. We believe in a Age of Accountability, but it is not an absolute age. IE; I'm more accountable for my own actions than any 8 year old. Some 15 year old's are less accountable than some 8 year old's. We each will be judged by what we did with what we knew.

[trim]

Silhouette,

 

I was taught the same thing for as long as I can remember.  The challenge I have with the concept is that it is difficult to believe that every mortal to die before the age of accountability will automatically have God-like character and be exalted.  It seems that there is a need to qualify beyond the metric of how many years one spends in mortality.  I have no problem with the sinlessness of infants or children, but the concept of opportunity versus a guarantee seems more consistent with eternal progression.

 

I know that mortality is only a small slice of the venues of progression, but the terminology of Brother England seems appealing.

[LOSTONE]

Is it not that only those who are held accountable are those who know the truth to which to be held accountable to?

If a child or other person does not know the truth to which to be held accountable to than how can they be held accountable to begin with?

This is not to imply that one gets a free pass because they are ignorant, but rather to say does the hungry still allowed to go hungry if they have never been aware of or taught how to grow crops or fish or do they still get feed?

[The Nehor]

The gospel of Eugene England is an interesting piece of work but I prefer the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[JAHS]

I have collected a few quotes on this subjct. Speaking of infants Joseph Smith said:

 

" It will never grow [in the grave]; it will still be the child, in the same precise form [when it rises] as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God." (HC 6:316)

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith once said:

“Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56-57.)

 

For some reason that only God knows, these children don't need the test of temptation for their salvation; they only need a body.

 

Joseph Fielding Smith also said:

"We must assume that the Lord knows and arranges beforehand who shall be taken in infancy and who shall remain on earth to undergo whatever tests are needed in their cases." (Joseph Fielding Smith" The Salvation of Little Children," Ensign, April 1977, p. 6.)

 

President Smith also said:

"The Lord will grant unto these children the privilege of all the sealing blessings which pertain to exaltation.

We were all mature spirits before we were born, and the bodies of little children will grow after resurrection to the full stature of the spirit, and all the blessings will be theirs through their obedience the same as if they had lived to maturity and received them on the earth.

The Lord is just and will not deprive any person of a blessing, simply because he died before that blessing can be received. It would be manifestly unfair to deprive a little child of the privilege of receiving all the blessings of exaltation in the world to come simply because it died in infancy." (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2)

 

So the scriptures and prophets tell us they will not be tempted and will be guaranteed eternal life. They will of course have to finish growing to fit their adult spirits and will need to be sealed to an eternal spouse sometime in the future. 

[Rob Osborn]

I recently reread Eugene England's essay, On Fidelity, Polygamy, and Celestial Marriage, and I was perplexed by this line:

 

 

I have sat in a number of lessons and discussions that suggested that death before the age of accountability is a free pass to the Celestial Kingdom.  In fact, this assertion came up in my quorum meeting this week.  Brother England's belief sounds reasonable, but it seems to oppose the majority opinion.  

 

Do you know of any sources to support his opinion/interpretation?

It makes logical sense that children who die before accountability are saved to "paradise" until such time during the millennium that they can be raised up to adulthood and make the necessary choices and ordinances and obedience to those ordinances of the house of God that bring salvation. Everyone must enter into the same path, even Jesus Christ had to be baptized to show obedience and make covenants.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[cinepro]

I recently reread Eugene England's essay, On Fidelity, Polygamy, and Celestial Marriage, and I was perplexed by this line:

 

 

I have sat in a number of lessons and discussions that suggested that death before the age of accountability is a free pass to the Celestial Kingdom.  In fact, this assertion came up in my quorum meeting this week.  Brother England's belief sounds reasonable, but it seems to oppose the majority opinion.  

 

Do you know of any sources to support his opinion/interpretation?  

 

 

This is the pertinent verse:

 

 

 

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

 

D&C 137

 

That's pretty clear as far as it goes, but I guess there might be some wiggle room on what, exactly it means to be "saved in the celestial kingdom". 

 

I suspect this is the meaning most LDS would ascribe to the verse:

 

Finally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life (see Abr. 2:11). This is sometimes referred to as the “fulness of salvation” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 4 vols. [1979–81], 1:242). This salvation requires more than repentance and baptism by appropriate priesthood authority. It also requires the making of sacred covenants, including eternal marriage, in the temples of God, and faithfulness to those covenants by enduring to the end. If we use the word salvation to mean “exaltation,” it is premature for any of us to say that we have been “saved” in mortality. That glorious status can only follow the final judgment of Him who is the Great Judge of the living and the dead.

 

But I would be extremely leery of anyone who suggested that there's a chance that children who die before the age of accountability might not be "saved in the celestial kingdom."

Edited October 21, 2014 by cinepro

[cinepro]

I also think there's a good chance that "age of accountability" doesn't always equal "exactly 8 years old".  Each person is different, and while the age of 8 seems to be a pretty good rule of thumb for the Church right now, I don't know that there's any eternal principle that makes this apply to every child ever on the planet.    So I wouldn't get too hung up about the different states of children who die at the ages of 7 364/365 and 8 1/365.

[JLHPROF]

This is the pertinent verse:

 

 

 

 

That's pretty clear as far as it goes, but I guess there might be some wiggle room on what, exactly it means to be "saved in the celestial kingdom".

 

I suspect this is the meaning most LDS would ascribe to the verse:

 

 

 

 

But I would be extremely leery of anyone who suggested that there's a chance that children who die before the age of accountability might not be "saved in the celestial kingdom."

 

 

I'm not sure I 100% agree.   I absolutely agree that those who die before the age of accountability (before Baptism grants them entrance into the Celestial Kingdom) will automatically receive salvation (resurrection) in the Celestial Kingdom.

They will be in the exact same position as any baptized 10 year old that would pass away.

 

I don't know that I agree that they automatically receive exaltation - not unless they accept all the laws and ordinances contingent to that condition.  They would have to marry in order to have eternal increase.

I DO believe they will get that chance/choice.  I don't see how they can automatically be exalted without a spouse etc.  But just as with us, I think there may be some who are perfectly happy to stay as ministering angels.

[pogi]

President Joseph Fielding Smith once said:

“Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56-57.)

 

I have always wondered about this principle.  If Satan has no influence over children, how is it that children can knowingly act contrary to their conscience?  Children understand right and wrong and knowingly choose wrong.  The scriptures state that man cannot act without being enticed by the one or the other, so who or what is it that entices (tempts) children to do wrong?  We say that children are innocent because they do not understand right and wrong.  That is not my experience.  They feel guilt when they knowingly do wrong, and have spiritual confirmations when doing good just like the rest of us.

 

The fact is that our tendency to choose between right and wrong is engrained in us long before the age of accountability.  This tendency does not generally change significantly after our formative years.  This makes me wonder than, how actively does Satan really tempt us?  He doesn't seem to need to, because most of the time we are battling our tendencies engrained from our formative years. 

[Jeanne]

Just pointing about the silliness of it. 

 

I do believe in the infinite wisdom and love of our Father in Heaven.  I believe that he has prepared a means for all of his children to become heirs of the celestial kingdom, exaltation, and eternal life.  I also believe that we don't fully understand that process at the moment.

I agree.  We simply don't understand.  I shouldn't make judgements on things I don't understand.  It is hard to separate understanding and just "perception". 

[VideoGameJunkie]

Back in the old days, the infant mortality rate was very high and many young children didn't survive. There are probably billions of children who died and are guaranteed salvation. They probably proved themselves in the pre mortal world and just had to come to this earth to receive a body. Those who are also unaccountable are those with mental disabilities.

[trim]

I was thinking along the same lines.  If some part of our character is developed in the formative years, then even that character would have to be brought into conformance with Celestial law at some point.  It seems that the success rate for that process would be something less than 100%

[Silhouette]

I have a daughter that died after living only four hours. At the time, I was taught that she would automatically attain exaltation. This has sustained me through some mighty tough times, and I know that she is serving a mission on the other side of the veil. I see no reason to make a change in what I was taught at the time.

Incidentally, the man who taught me this principle is my cousin, who served as the Atlanta temple President, so I reckon he knew what he was talking about.

Let me clarify something that I said here. When I said she automatically attained exaltation, I didn't mean that I thought she went there without having to pass through the Spirit World first. I meant that she is waiting in Paradise, but when that wait is over, she will attain exaltation at the same time as everybody else who goes to that degree. I know that she has to be married, etc. in order to get there.

What I didn't know, that someone said here, is that she will have to have her baptism and endowments too at some point. I guess that does make sense, but I always thought that "all they needed was a body" meant literally that. That they didn't need to have these things done because they were beyond the point of needing them done. I don't know where I got that idea...I guess it was me misinterpreting the statement.

So that raises a question for me. If the children who die before the age of accountability are going to need the same ordinances that adults do, why don't we do their temple work like everybody else's? And if they are eventually going to have to earn their exaltation like everybody else, why is it "an abomination to baptize little children" if they have to have baptism anyway?

Hope this makes sense. Sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to learn and understand a new concept that I've never heard before.

[JLHPROF]

Let me clarify something that I said here. When I said she automatically attained exaltation, I didn't mean that I thought she went there without having to pass through the Spirit World first. I meant that she is waiting in Paradise, but when that wait is over, she will attain exaltation at the same time as everybody else who goes to that degree. I know that she has to be married, etc. in order to get there.

What I didn't know, that someone said here, is that she will have to have her baptism and endowments too at some point. I guess that does make sense, but I always thought that "all they needed was a body" meant literally that. That they didn't need to have these things done because they were beyond the point of needing them done. I don't know where I got that idea...I guess it was me misinterpreting the statement.

So that raises a question for me. If the children who die before the age of accountability are going to need the same ordinances that adults do, why don't we do their temple work like everybody else's? And if they are eventually going to have to earn their exaltation like everybody else, why is it "an abomination to baptize little children" if they have to have baptism anyway?

Hope this makes sense. Sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to learn and understand a new concept that I've never heard before.

 

A couple of thoughts.

 

1. Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed.  All must be saved on the same principles - Joseph Smith TPJS 308

 

2. Children under the age of accountability will need to be baptized for the same reason as Christ - to fulfill all righteousness, not for the remission of sins.

 

3. All who enter the Celestial Kingdom will need their endowments so that the blessings there can be given to them.  They will need all the knowledge and power like anyone else.

 

4.  So why don't we do the work for little children - I can think of two possibilities:

- Perhaps they need the ability to choose and exercise their agency and of course, who would we seal them to in marriage?  Better to wait till the Millennium.

- Alternate possiblity - 

 

President Joseph F. Smith, the sixth President of the Church, reported:“Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: ‘You will have the joy, the pleasure and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.’

.Mary Isabella Horne and Leonora Cannon Taylor each lost a young child in death. Sister Horne recalled that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave the two sisters these words of comfort: “He told us that we should receive those children in the morning of the resurrection just as we laid them down, in purity and innocence, and we should nourish and care for them as their mothers. He said that children would be raised in the resurrection just as they were laid down, and that they would obtain all the intelligence necessary to occupy thrones, principalities and powers. 

 

 

 Perhaps, just as we do, they have to reach a certain stature before they can receive those ordinances

[Silhouette]

I was thinking about baptism and endowments, not sealing... And though I understand that these children will have the right to choose whether to accept the endowments or not, what I'm not getting is the difference between their spirits accepting them, and any other adult spirit waiting in the Spirit World.

Which brings me to another point I have a question about, and I would appreciate your thoughts on this: The idea that there are no child spirits, because people only need a body in this life. That all spirits are adults when in their purely spirit form.

The above was another concept I picked up over the years. I don't remember where I heard it, but it made sense to me. Is this taught as doctrine, or was this just someone's personal idea that sounded plausible?

Thanks so much for your patience and time in helping me understand these things

Edited October 21, 2014 by Silhouette

[JLHPROF]

I was thinking about baptism and endowments, not sealing... And though I understand that these children will have the right to choose whether to accept the endowments or not, what I'm not getting is the difference between their spirits accepting them, and any other adult spirit waiting in the Spirit World.

Which brings me to another point I have a question about, and I would appreciate your thoughts on this: The idea that there are no child spirits, because people only need a body in this life. That all spirits are adults when in their purely spirit form.

The above was another concept I picked up over the years. I don't remember where I heard it, but it made sense to me. Is this taught as doctrine, or was this just someone's personal idea that sounded plausible?

Thanks so much for your patience and time in helping me understand these things

 

Well, as the Joseph F. Smith quote above (and Joseph Smith other places) teach, parents with children who die before adulthood will have the privilege of raising them in the Millennium.  So this means there are absolutely spirits that are children.  I have never seen any teaching to the effect that all spirits are adults.  All spirits will eventually be adults.