Degrees Within the Celestial Kingdom

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

1st level baptized and receive Holy Ghost. Middle level initiatories and temple endowment but not married. Top level and worthy of exaltation sealed to spouse in temple.

What about the children who haven't had their mortal experience yet, like we were before we came here?

Huh?

Huh?

What about them?

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The oddest thing is that this theorizes a group of people (large enough to have a "kingdom" of their own) who have the faith to get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, but even knowing all they know decide "Nope, don't care to get married or make Temple covenants, so I'll just spend eternity in this lower kingdom, thankyouverymuch."

That just seems...odd.

Many have trouble getting married. Not because they don't want to, but because . . . it's increasingly hard to get married (for a number of reasons not having to do with laziness, unworthiness, lack of ambition, etc.). 

It seems like there's at least one Ensign article a month about the plight of single members.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What about the children who haven't had their mortal experience yet, like we were before we came here?

Huh?

Huh?

What about them?

They will have the opportunity to be married. And therefore, have their shot at top-level CK. 

[Ahab]

Just now, rongo said:

They will have the opportunity to be married. And therefore, have their shot at top-level CK. 

You mean after they come back from their mortal experience and have been resurrected?  Mingled with those who have already had their mortal experiences and are already resurrected?

What if some of those children are children of recently resurrected and they won't be coming to this planet, having to wait until another planet is created for them?

Huh?

Huh?

What about them?

[stemelbow]

47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

They are wonderful levels of eternal glory.  However, being an angel ministering to a god doesn't seem so shabby either. I fully expect that such angels take full part in the creation of worlds, and other complex actions.  The word "angel" means "messenger" and seems like an interesting job in a huge universe (multiverse).  None of us will ever get bored, except the Sons of Perdition.

I don't know it seems like messengers only come once in a blue moon on our planet.  If there are billions of them going to all the countless planets out there, to the innumerable people going through mortality, then perhaps that means they'll keep busy.  But all of this feels like speculation.  Heaven could be the most boring place in existence for all we know.  We just suppose it is not. 

[Ahab]

45 minutes ago, rongo said:

Many have trouble getting married. Not because they don't want to, but because . . . it's increasingly hard to get married (for a number of reasons not having to do with laziness, unworthiness, lack of ambition, etc.). 

It seems like there's at least one Ensign article a month about the plight of single members.

Yeah but everyone will eventually have the opportunity to receive every blessing available, and have an eternal companion, or so we have been told.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Ahab

[Ahab]

47 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The oddest thing is that this theorizes a group of people (large enough to have a "kingdom" of their own) who have the faith to get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, but even knowing all they know decide "Nope, don't care to get married or make Temple covenants, so I'll just spend eternity in this lower kingdom, thankyouverymuch."

That just seems...odd.

Although the singles in the celestial kingdom will have a "kingdom of their own" so to speak, I don't think there will be that many of them. It's not as if they would need to be in equal proportions to those who are sealed to a spouse.

I think they will be either be people who were super duper picky and therefore couldn't find anyone to measure up to their idea of a perfect spouse, or they thought they would be better able to serve God better by being single, like eunuchs of a king I suppose.

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Although the singles in the celestial kingdom will have a "kingdom of their own" so to speak, I don't think there will be that many of them. It's not as if they would need to be in equal proportions to those who are sealed to a spouse.

I think they will be either be people who were super duper picky and therefore couldn't find anyone to measure up to their idea of a perfect spouse, or they thought they would be better able to serve God better by being single, like eunuchs of a king I suppose.

An Eternal Singles Ward? Sounds dreadful.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

An Eternal Singles Ward? Sounds dreadful.

Hey, how about being a eunuch?!?

Sounds even worse to me. At least there is some dating in singles wards.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

What about the children who haven't had their mortal experience yet, like we were before we came here?

Huh?

Huh?

What about them?

Not technically in the Celestial Kingdom yet.

Remember, the Celestial Kingdom is on this earth when it is resurrected and the spirit world is likewise on this earth.
Nobody who lived on this earth has inherited their Celestial Kingdom yet.



 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

The oddest thing is that this theorizes a group of people (large enough to have a "kingdom" of their own) who have the faith to get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, but even knowing all they know decide "Nope, don't care to get married or make Temple covenants, so I'll just spend eternity in this lower kingdom, thankyouverymuch."

That just seems...odd.

Not if you consider the laws and responsibilities connected with the covenants.
If people aren't willing to follow them here there is no reason to expect that to change.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

1st level baptized and receive Holy Ghost. Middle level initiatories and temple endowment but not married. Top level and worthy of exaltation sealed to spouse in temple.

That is the most popular current theory.  It makes the most sense.
And more interestingly, what would be the difference in roles for the bottom two classes?

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not technically in the Celestial Kingdom yet.

Remember, the Celestial Kingdom is on this earth when it is resurrected and the spirit world is likewise on this earth.
Nobody who lived on this earth has inherited their Celestial Kingdom yet.

The Celestial kingdom has an infinite number of planets, not just what this one will be when it is eventually created or recreated in the celestial order.  Our Father lives on a celestial order planet right now and we lived on a celestial order planet with him before we came here to experience mortality.

So I was talking about the children who live on the celestial planets their parents live on, before those children come to another planet like we did to experience mortality. These children are in one of the 3 orders or divisions if the celestial kingdom.

And in addition to those children and that order of the celestial kingdom there are those who are like our Father (and Mother) who have already experienced mortality and their resurrection and are now making babies, among other things, as they enjoy eternal life.  These parents are also in one of the 3 orders or divisions if the celestial kingdom, and are distinguishable from their children who haven't experienced mortality yet.

And then there are those who are still single who have already been resurrected, yet a 3rd order of people who can be distinguished from the other 2 groups or orders in the celestial kingdom.  

3 distinct groups, all in the celestial kingdom orders of heaven.

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The Celestial kingdom has an infinite number of planets, not just what this one will be when it is eventually created or recreated in the celestial order.  Our Father lives on a celestial order planet right now and we lived on a celestial order planet with him before we came here to experience mortality.

So I was talking about the children who live on the celestial planets their parents live on, before those children come to another planet like we did to experience mortality. These children are in one of the 3 orders or divisions if the celestial kingdom.

And in addition to those children and that order of the celestial kingdom there are those who are like our Father (and Mother) who have already experienced mortality and their resurrection and are now making babies, among other things, as they enjoy eternal life.  These parents are also in one of the 3 orders or divisions if the celestial kingdom, and are distinguishable from their children who haven't experienced mortality yet.

And then there are those who are still single who have already been resurrected, yet a 3rd order of people who can be distinguished from the other 2 groups or orders in the celestial kingdom.

3 distinct groups, all in the celestial kingdom orders of heaven.

Speaking of a Celestial order is not the same thing as speaking of our future Celestial Kingdom which is what D&C 131 is referring to with its three levels.

Yes, there are many Celestial level spheres out there.  But within OUR future Celestial KIngdom there will be 3 (at least) sub-levels. 
Perhaps one of them may be for future pre-mortal spirits.  After all, our spirit children will need some place to reside until an earth is created for them.

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is an interesting idea. Does God really want us all to have the highest degree in the highest kingdom and nothing else? Or does he recognize that as different beings some of us will be happier with different levels of glory? Or maybe it will take some people more time to adjust and prepare for higher degrees which makes me think God wants us to seek and achieve what will make us the most happy eternally. That may not be exactly the same thing for everyone. Just a thought.

If I get your tone correct, this is an example of how I think you get confused over nothing. Here you are taking speculative ideas, howbeit they may have merit, and placing them on equal status to scripture including modern-day scripture which includes official positions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

Some results in searching "exaltation" in the online Topical Guide (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg?lang=eng&letter=e)

1) "11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." (Psalms 16)

2)  "4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—" (Alma 41)

3) "28 And I know that he will raise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in glory; yea, and I will praise him forever, for he has brought our fathers out of Egypt, and he has swallowed up the Egyptians in the Red Sea; and he led them by his power into the promised land; yea, and he has delivered them out of bondage and captivity from time to time." (Alma 36)

4) "43 But, behold, I, the Lord, will hasten the city in its time, and will crown the faithful with joy and with rejoicing." (D&C 52)

5) "19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;" (D&C 88)

6) "107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him." (D&C 88)

7) "56 And he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent; and the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory; 57 And as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remainder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day." (Moses 7)

Note that joy is described with being in God's presence and failure to do so is "darkness" and "hell". There is only one level of salvation to achieve these results and that's exaltation. God's work and glory is exaltation. It's perfectly fine to ponder on happiness in other degrees of glory but the tone in your post is tat you seem content with seeking something less than the highest degree of salvation. Yes, ultimately I think one who does not want to keep God's commandments will be happier in a lesser degree of glory but to think of that as desirable when God's prophets describe it as "hell" is contrary to what you should do. That is to seek God's kingdom and all the happiness which comes through achieving the highest degree of glory. The choice is individual in nature but despite what people choose to be content with it does not mean that is what they should be content with. 

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

An Eternal Singles Ward? Sounds dreadful.

I know, right?!?!?! Can you imagine trying to be they Bishop of that ward? 

Edited March 30, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know it seems like messengers only come once in a blue moon on our planet.  If there are billions of them going to all the countless planets out there, to the innumerable people going through mortality, then perhaps that means they'll keep busy.  But all of this feels like speculation.  Heaven could be the most boring place in existence for all we know.  We just suppose it is not. 

"Appearances" of angels is perhaps rare, angelic administrating to mankind, however, I think that is far far far more common than their appearances. 

[cinepro]

46 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not if you consider the laws and responsibilities connected with the covenants.
If people aren't willing to follow them here there is no reason to expect that to change.

From what I've seen of the people here on Earth who go through the Temple, "considering the laws and responsibilities" isn't really a pre-requisite. 

Heck, we're not even allowed to know what they are until the moment they are presented for us to make the covenant in front of a room full of people, so they should just do that and they could probably have a similarly high success rate with people making the covenants.

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Interesting admission from you, there.

In another thread I talk a bit about how eternal life is the kind of life our Father has and is also the best life possible for all of us. And in the Church we focus on teaching how to attain that kind of life while describing what that kind of life involves.

It might still be kind of interesting to know how other people will live an inferior life and why they wouldn't want the best life that is possible, though.  Not because we might be tempted to live an inferior life but to find out why an inferior life would be appealing to someone.

We know inferior lives aren't all bad, with some good things about most of them, they're just not the best kind of life we can possibly have.

 

Correct. It's because an inferior life is "not so bad" that many I think would seek it. Me personally, I don't think I would or feel I should if it meant thwarting my exaltation but if I thought I could work through the inferiority in the afterlife in order to achieve exaltation then I don't think I'd desire to work so hard, or, better put, think and feel I should work so hard, in the here and now to achieve exaltation. 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, cinepro said:

From what I've seen of the people here on Earth who go through the Temple, "considering the laws and responsibilities" isn't really a pre-requisite.

Heck, we're not even allowed to know what they are until the moment they are presented for us to make the covenant in front of a room full of people, so they should just do that and they could probably have a similarly high success rate with people making the covenants.

If there is anything in the 5 major covenants of the temple that you aren't already keeping before entering you probably shouldn't be entering.  There are no surprise covenants in the temple.  The same goes for the covenants of the initiatory and sealing.  The same goes for the covenants of secrecy.

No surprises.  You promise nothing in the temple that should come as any kind of surprise.

Edited March 30, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Because I'm not convinced we have an accurate understanding of things in the church.

I challenge you to try the puzzle experiment. Have someone provide you 5-10 pieces of a large puzzle which you've never seen and isn't easily recognizable to you. Take those 5-10 pieces and see how accurate your understanding is of the big picture. You might get lucky and nail it perfectly...but I doubt it. More likely you will make assumptions to the best of your ability. This is natural, even if not very accurate. Now imagine that you have the responsibility to teach everyone else about the big picture based on those pieces. Will you be confident or will you be humble in your claims of understanding?

Well, I disagree. I think we have a very small understanding of things, even with modern-day revelations. It's still far better than groups without revelations but still very small. I think you yourself is actually doing the very puzzle challenge you invite me to do assuming we in the church know so much. And I think it's confusing you as you rightfully point out that it would. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

1st level baptized and receive Holy Ghost. Middle level initiatories and temple endowment but not married. Top level and worthy of exaltation sealed to spouse in temple.

Seems like a plausible model, and it is good enough for all intents and purposes. It holds out the hope that regardless of our circumstances, our celestial desires will be fulfilled, no matter how we may be thwarted in this life in realizing them.

But I think for a person to dwell in the Celestial Kingdom described in D&C 76, or enjoy direct communion with the Father and the fulness of all that the Father hath, he must receive more than baptism, confirmation and endowments. He must receive the Holy Spirit of Promise, a fullness of the sealing power, and membership in the church of the Firstborn as mentioned in D&C 76 and 88. This is partly why I do not see "celestial kingdom" in S&C 131 to mean "The Celestial Kingdom."

The other kingdoms, according to D&C 76, receive not the fulness, just as baptism and confirmation do not reflect the fulness of the endowments and the endowments do not reflect the fulness of the sealing power. So each enjoys only what we are willing to receive.

In other words, by not advancing to confirmation, the baptism covenant is not kept; by not advancing to the endowments, the Holy Ghost is not in constant receipt (it’s a two-way companionship as any relationship must be); and by not receiving the sealings or Holy Spirit of Promise, the endowment covenants are not kept. This defines the personalities; rather, the level of willingness to receive of a fulness, inhabiting the kingdoms in D&C 76.

[Ahab]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Speaking of a Celestial order is not the same thing as speaking of our future Celestial Kingdom which is what D&C 131 is referring to with its three levels.

Yes, there are many Celestial level spheres out there.  But within OUR future Celestial KIngdom there will be 3 (at least) sub-levels. 
Perhaps one of them may be for future pre-mortal spirits.  After all, our spirit children will need some place to reside until an earth is created for them.

Kingdoms/ orders/ degrees whatever. I don't have all the semantics figured out exactly. 

I think of heaven as every place that is above this Earth, beginning with the sky and going outward in every direction, with no end to the space or the things in every place.

So it is kind of hard for me to imagine this Earth as a part of heaven unless I'm looking at it from the perspective of some other place.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Seems like a plausible model, and it is good enough for all intents and purposes. It holds out the hope that regardless of our circumstances, our celestial desires will be fulfilled, no matter how we may be thwarted in this life in realizing them.

 

But I think for a person to dwell in the Celestial Kingdom described in D&C 76, or enjoy direct communion with the Father and the fulness of all that the Father hath, he must receive more than baptism, confirmation and endowments. He must receive the Holy Spirit of Promise, a fullness of the sealing power, and membership in the church of the Firstborn as mentioned in D&C 76 and 88. This is partly why I do not see "celestial kingdom" in S&C 131 to mean "The Celestial Kingdom."

 

The other kingdoms, according to D&C 76, receive not the fulness, just as baptism and confirmation do not reflect the fulness of the endowments and the endowments do not reflect the fulness of the sealing power. So each enjoys only what we are willing to receive.

 

In other words, by not advancing to confirmation, the baptism covenant is not kept; by not advancing to the endowments, the Holy Ghost is not in constant receipt (it’s a two-way companionship as any relationship must be); and by not receiving the sealings or Holy Spirit of Promise, the endowment covenants are not kept. This defines the personalities; rather, the level of willingness to receive of a fulness, inhabiting the kingdoms in D&C 76.

 

I agree with most of this but I have no idea what you mean with the part I bolded.

I think D&C 131 (Nauvoo period) is just adding the newly revealed eternal marriage to the list of things in the fulness you mentioned from D&C 76 & 88 (1832 Kirtland).
I agree that the fullness is required for exaltation.  If this section were written just 6 months later it probably would have added the Fulness of Priesthood ordinance in addition to Celestial marriage as a requirement for the top degree.  The prophet hadn't yet received the final ordinance.
 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yeah but everyone will eventually have the opportunity to receive every blessing available, and have an eternal companion, or so we have been told.

Are you speaking of proxy marriages in LDS Temples, perhaps during the Millennium?