Afterlife expectations

[Stargazer]

On 5/10/2021 at 2:00 AM, CA Steve said:

I do not believe that as finite beings we have any clue what infinite life would entail. I suspect we are like toddlers arguing in the sandbox about the importance of a Tonka truck vs a Barbie doll.

Oh, absolutely!

There's plenty of examples of this all over this board, folks who talk like they expect the afterlife to just like here, but with better food and housing. I have a rather more expansive view of the subject than many others here, I think, but I'm pretty sure the expansiveness and the glory of the final reality is going to make my view look like very weak sauce. 

[The Nehor]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:47 PM, rpn said:

“that same spirit that doth possess at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world” (Alma 32:32)

More importantly, since your body won't be reunited with your spirit until resurrection, what possible alternative teaching could there be?   This is the time to prepare to meet God.

I am saying that if bodily urges torment you as a spirit then paradise is not. You’re focusing on the negative behaviors thinking they will want sinful things. Do you think the righteous spend their paradise pining for the day they can kiss the one they love again?

The same spirit that goes out does come back but a spirit is also fundamentally different from a spirit clothed in flesh.

[ksfisher]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Do you think the righteous spend their paradise pining for the day they can kiss the one they love again?

49 All these and many more, even the ^aprophets who dwelt among the Nephites and ^btestified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

50 For the ^adead had looked upon the long absence of their ^bspirits from their bodies as a ^cbondage.

D&C 138

Maybe they do.

Edited May 17, 2021 by ksfisher

[The Nehor]

40 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

49 All these and many more, even the ^aprophets who dwelt among the Nephites and ^btestified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

50 For the ^adead had looked upon the long absence of their ^bspirits from their bodies as a ^cbondage.

D&C 138

Maybe they do.

Maybe, and if bodily desires are truly a torment wouldn’t the Buddhist cessation of desire be the way to go?

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Maybe, and if bodily desires are truly a torment wouldn’t the Buddhist cessation of desire be the way to go?

Next time you see Buddha you'll have to ask him.

[Jamie]

On 5/8/2021 at 7:04 AM, Stargazer said:

But what about the intermediate place between death and our eventual mansion, the place called the Spirit World? What do you believe will be going on there?

I am hoping I will be learning how to fly there, without needing to use any machines.  I hope to be learning how to do a lot of things there that I don't know how to do here.  I won't need to worry about death anymore so I will be able to leap off of cliffs without worrying about what will happen when or if I hit the ground below.  Maybe some of my ancestors will have already mastered it and will tell me how to do it.  When Jesus comes back the best of us will be flying up into the clouds to meet him so this is a skill that I think we will need to develop unless maybe it just comes naturally to any spirit without a mortal body.

[Jamie]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

49 All these and many more, even the ^aprophets who dwelt among the Nephites and ^btestified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

50 For the ^adead had looked upon the long absence of their ^bspirits from their bodies as a ^cbondage.

D&C 138

Maybe they do.

When I think of bondage I think of being bound or limited in what I am able to do.  So I think those spirits in that scripture simply felt limited in what they were able to do, with the limits resulting from having no body other than their spirit body to do things with.

On the other hand,  I think there will be at least a few things that we will be able to do there that we can't or haven't learned how to do here.  Flying, for example. Apparently all spirits without mortal bodies are at least able to hover.  Our Lord Jesus could both ascend up into and descend from the clouds above in the sky.  Hovering over water would be fun, I think.  I'm looking forward to learning how to fly without needing to use any machines.

[Jamie]

40 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Next time you see Buddha you'll have to ask him.

That would only give him Buddha's opinion, and Buddha might think being a Buddhist is better than being a "Christian".

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Next time you see Buddha you'll have to ask him.

Next time I have that opportunity it would be too late to shift gears and I would have first hand experience of it anyways so why would I need to ask.

I am not endorsing Buddhism. I am saying that if bodily desires without a body are a torment as some say than giving up all desire for bodily pleasure would seem wise. I don't believe it though.

[Jamie]

On 5/8/2021 at 7:04 AM, Stargazer said:

But what about the intermediate place between death and our eventual mansion, the place called the Spirit World? What do you believe will be going on there?

How about some ideas of what may NOT be going on there?  Like eating.  Or sleeping.  Or maybe just walking as we do now.  Our spirits may not need food like our mortal bodies do now.  We won't die just by not eating. We probably won't die anymore, period.

 

[The Nehor]

I have low expectations for the Spirit World. I hope that means all surprises will be pleasant.

[Jamie]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I have low expectations for the Spirit World. I hope that means all surprises will be pleasant.

Do you think there will be apples and bows and arrows so we could play William Tell?  I wonder how good at that I will be able to get.

 

 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Do you think there will be apples and bows and arrows so we could play William Tell?  I wonder how good at that I will be able to get.

I was wrong. You discovered one more unpleasant surprise that could have disappointed me. Adjusting now......

[AtlanticMike]

14 hours ago, Jamie said:

How about some ideas of what may NOT be going on there?  Like eating.  Or sleeping.  Or maybe just walking as we do now.  Our spirits may not need food like our mortal bodies do now.  We won't die just by not eating. We probably won't die anymore, period.

I was listening to a podcast a few weeks back and they brought up a subject I had never heard. They called it a TK smoothy, apparently there's a chance spirits in the two lower kingdoms lose their private parts🤯. So I'm being proactive and I'm making a pair of underwear out of lead so when I die I can be buried in them. That way, if I end up in one of the two lower kingdoms, the magical power that is used to remove mans most precious body part, will be blocked, making me the only man with a penis, now that's heaven😂.

Edited May 18, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I was listening to a podcast a few weeks back and they brought up a subject I had never heard. They called it a TK smoothy, apparently there's a chance spirits in the two lower kingdoms lose their private parts🤯. So I'm being proactive and I'm making a pair of underwear out of lead so when I die I can be buried in them. That way, if I end up in one of the two lower kingdoms, the magical power that is used to remove mans most precious body part, will be blocked, making me the only man with a penis, now that's heaven😂.

I don’t believe it. That everyone will become a Ken or Barbie doll sound like a bit of fear mongering and a bit of vengeance on those who failed. The resurrection is to make all whole. I also see no reason erotic pleasure would be denied to the lower kingdoms even if they can’t reproduce.

[teddyaware]

23 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I was listening to a podcast a few weeks back and they brought up a subject I had never heard. They called it a TK smoothy, apparently there's a chance spirits in the two lower kingdoms lose their private parts🤯. So I I'm being proactive and I'm making a pair of underwear out of lead so when I die I can be buried in them. That way, if I end up in one of the two lower kingdoms, the magical power that is used to remove mans most precious body part, will be blocked, making me the only man with a penis, now that's heaven😂.

So some theorize that in the resurrection the Family Proclaimatiom will be proven to be incorrect because being male or female will be shown to be of no “eternal significance.” If these people are right, the humans who inhabit the lower kingdoms of heaven will be “non-binary,” which means the lgbtqia community will be vindicated in the end. It also means Alma will be proven to be incorrect... 

23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame. (Alma 40)

[Nofear]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not endorsing Buddhism. I am saying that if bodily desires without a body are a torment as some say than giving up all desire for bodily pleasure would seem wise. I don't believe it though.

I am certain that lacking control of one's body would be a form of torment. We need mastery over our own flesh. Not necessarily the cessation of "desires" but that we are under complete control over ourselves.

That leaves a related question: why would we want both a spirit and physical body? For me, the answer I accept comes down to physics. Salvation is the "triumph over all" (see Joseph's commentary where he was specifically talking about triumph over the devil). Physical matter interacts readily with physical matter. Spirit matter readily interacts with spirit matter. Physical matter and spiritual matter -- don't readily interact. To have complete control where I am not subject to the whims of nature and reality, to be blown hither and thither, I would need both a physical and spirit body. I agree with you. Buddhism has a great deal of good with it. Nonetheless, I also don't believe it. The ultimate (Buddhist) goal of nihilism is a stark contrast to the ultimate goal of mastery over one's reality that I see in my interpretation of LDS theology.

 

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Nofear said:

I am certain that lacking control of one's body would be a form of torment. We need mastery over our own flesh. Not necessarily the cessation of "desires" but that we are under complete control over ourselves.

Now I am even more doomed.

 

[AtlanticMike]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

even a hair of the head shall not be lost

I don't know if this is true, I can't imagine Mini-Me or Austin Powers with hair! What about Mr. Clean, will his products need to be renamed?? So many questions 😁

Edited May 18, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

I don't know if this is true, I can't imagine Mini-Me or Austin Powers with hair! What about Mr. Clean, will his products need to be renamed?? So many questions 😁

There may be a lot more to our available physical phenotypes than we presume. Eyelashes, eyebrows, vestigial organs? Can God curl his tongue or wiggle his ears like Pres. Monson?

Right now God is often depicted as a white Caucasian male. But, there are many other possibilities. Possibilities that certainly extend past this earth. On another planet with a different star, do all the human's use the same melanin pigment schema or is a different protein used to mitigate the solar radiation impacts? E.g. can those inhabitants have a greenish or bluish skin? Is five fingers and five toes per limb the mandatory situation? Is a short, non visible coccyx the way to go or do some of our distant, other world, brothers and sisters have longer, visible ones? Round pupils or slitted pupils? Etc. etc. etc. Why should we be such, not just racist*,  but Earthists in imaging God?!

And what biological age and associated phenotype characteristics will our resurrected bodies be? Do we have some degree of choice? Is that appearance mutable (Christ allowed his stigmata to persist)? Agreed, "So many questions".  But, that'd be off topic and entirely speculative.

* I say racist not in a pejorative way but only as a term that acknowledges our natural ethnocentric biases.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Nofear

[AtlanticMike]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

There may be a lot more to our available physical phenotypes than we presume. Eyelashes, eyebrows, vestigial organs? Can God curl his tongue or wiggle his ears like Pres. Monson?

Right now God is often depicted as a white Caucasian male. But, there are many other possibilities. Possibilities that certainly extend past this earth. On another planet with a different star, do all the human's use the same melanin pigment schema or is a different protein used to mitigate the solar radiation impacts? E.g. can those inhabitants have a greenish or bluish skin? Is five fingers and five toes per limb the mandatory situation? Is a short, non visible coccyx the way to go or do some of our distant, other world, brothers and sisters have longer, visible ones? Round pupils or slitted pupils? Etc. etc. etc. Why should we be such, not just racist*,  but Earthists in imaging God?!

And what biological age and associated phenotype characteristics will our resurrected bodies be? Do we have some degree of choice? Is that appearance mutable (Christ allowed his stigmata to persist)? Agreed, "So many questions".  But, that'd be off topic and entirely speculative.

* I say racist not in a pejorative way but only as a term that acknowledges our natural ethnocentric biases.

I like the way you think outside the box. The whole time I'm reading your post I'm thinking of the movie Avatar and the Na'vi beings with blue skin. Oh, by the way, I didn't know what a coccyx was so I looked it up, thanks for teaching me a knew word😁. 

[Stargazer]

On 5/17/2021 at 7:07 PM, Jamie said:

I am hoping I will be learning how to fly there, without needing to use any machines.  I hope to be learning how to do a lot of things there that I don't know how to do here.  I won't need to worry about death anymore so I will be able to leap off of cliffs without worrying about what will happen when or if I hit the ground below.  Maybe some of my ancestors will have already mastered it and will tell me how to do it.  When Jesus comes back the best of us will be flying up into the clouds to meet him so this is a skill that I think we will need to develop unless maybe it just comes naturally to any spirit without a mortal body.

I don't know if you ever saw the film "Star Trek: Generations", but in the film Captain Kirk has gone on to a form of afterlife, and Captain Picard (who has also gone there) comes to recruit him to go back to mortality for an important mission. Kirk says "I like it here" and goes off horseback riding with his old girlfriend. Picard has to follow him to try to convince him after all. When, after Kirk and his horse jump an arroyo on the way, he pauses as Picard catches up to him. He remarks to Jean-Luc that every time he had ever jumped that little ravine in life he always got a thrill because of the risk. But this time he got no thrill at all. So he decides to go with Picard, since effective immortality has been proven to have no challenges.  And of course he gets killed for real this time.

Like The Nehor said at one time, we have no idea what's in store for us. You'll be able to fly, all right. But there will be so much more, so as to make flying a kindergarten-type activity.

[AtlanticMike]

On 5/17/2021 at 2:23 PM, Jamie said:

I'm looking forward to learning how to fly without needing to use any machines

Well, you could always do this now, why wait?

 

[Jamie]

21 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know if you ever saw the film "Star Trek: Generations", but in the film Captain Kirk has gone on to a form of afterlife, and Captain Picard (who has also gone there) comes to recruit him to go back to mortality for an important mission. Kirk says "I like it here" and goes off horseback riding with his old girlfriend. Picard has to follow him to try to convince him after all. When, after Kirk and his horse jump an arroyo on the way, he pauses as Picard catches up to him. He remarks to Jean-Luc that every time he had ever jumped that little ravine in life he always got a thrill because of the risk. But this time he got no thrill at all. So he decides to go with Picard, since effective immortality has been proven to have no challenges.  And of course he gets killed for real this time.

Like The Nehor said at one time, we have no idea what's in store for us. You'll be able to fly, all right. But there will be so much more, so as to make flying a kindergarten-type activity.

I detest negative expressions that infer we don't or can't know something, especially when I have some ideas that some people insist I can't have.  I don't know everything about what is in store for us but I do have a lot of ideas which God has given to me.

And I am fine with the idea that flying may be a kindergarten-type of activity.  The easier it will be to do the better, I think.

[let’s roll]

On 5/8/2021 at 8:19 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Could you explain if possible?

In the book of Moses in the PGP (Moses 6 and 7) Enoch describes seeing God weep and the circumstances which caused Him to do so.  The same chapters record what His children do to cause Him to be angry.  His words are both telling and instructive.

The Givens’ book, The God Who Weeps is worthy of your attention.

Godspeed Mike.