Degrees Within the Celestial Kingdom

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Just a question.  Why don't LDS really know?  Why would God not explain these things..?

Because it is not needed most likely.

Knowing exaltation involves marriage allows us to know we should highly value our marriage partner and our commitments.

Given that many faiths have taught the marriage relationship dies at death, knowing that it doesn't can imo dramatically change one's attitude towards it.  This may, in part, explain the lower divorce rate for temple marriages.

It is possible the other aspects (if they exist as laws and ordinances) are already known well enough as important that it is not necessary to share knowledge that replaces false teachings.

[hope_for_things]

9 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Yeah, as I see it, the LDS Church is very liberal when it comes to allowing members to interpret doctrines, including its leaders. There a strict understanding of the Standard Works and b) wait for direct revelation to the leaders of the Church to clear things up though n the large scope of things, considering how many doctirnes there are to interpret, this almost never happens so, in my view, "a" is the best route to take the vast majority of the time.  

I don't see any direct revelation on doctrines happening in the contemporary church.  Actually I just see speculation and evolution happening as people respond to culture and their environment.  Even with respect to the 1978 revelation, that really wasn't a doctrinal revelation, it was really a revelation of practice (changed the policy to allow for priesthood and temple admittance.)  We still have people defending the earlier ban on priesthood as revealed by God even though there is no evidence for a revelation on the ban.  

I do agree with you that the church is liberal up to a point with respect to members interpretations, but that line is typically drawn whenever those interpretations come into conflict an authority figure.  

[HappyJackWagon]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith. (D&C 98: 12)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (John 16: 12)

I guess it's on a need to know basis. When we need to know and are ready to know He will tell us.

So I guess the church isn't faithful enough to receive the next line of doctrine on this topic?

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Our Church teachings may have evolved but the reality of existence didn't.
Either Brigham is right that you can progress between kingdoms (or kingdoms can progress) or JFS/BRM are right that you stay at the level assigned forever.

Whether one teaching is a heresy and one is Church teaching makes no difference to whether this progression is possible.
Unless God has spoken on the issue they are both speculation.  IMO Brigham was right on this.  The other idea makes no sense to me whatsoever.
 

Or our concepts of kingdoms and progression is so far off from the infinite reality of God, as written they are actually both wrong, perhaps even nonsense.

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So I guess the church isn't faithful enough to receive the next line of doctrine on this topic?

Either that or we don't need to know it yet. What good would knowledge of that do us right now? Our goal is the highest level of the Celestial kingdom.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Because it is not needed most likely.

Knowing exaltation involves marriage allows us to know we should highly value our marriage partner and our commitments.

Given that many faiths have taught the marriage relationship dies at death, knowing that it doesn't can imo dramatically change one's attitude towards it.  This may, in part, explain the lower divorce rate for temple marriages.

It is possible the other aspects (if they exist as laws and ordinances) are already known well enough as important that it is not necessary to share knowledge that replaces false teachings.

It really isn't necessary I guess..but isn't it time to fill in some of the gaps that His children are asking??  Guesswork isn't the way to return to the Father.  At what point will He hevelp the saints to better understand things that are now being asked/questioned.  Faith can still survive and maybe even better if the saints can have that line upon line thing..with a line!

[hope_for_things]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Our Church teachings may have evolved but the reality of existence didn't.
Either Brigham is right that you can progress between kingdoms (or kingdoms can progress) or JFS/BRM are right that you stay at the level assigned forever.

Whether one teaching is a heresy and one is Church teaching makes no difference to whether this progression is possible.
Unless God has spoken on the issue they are both speculation.  IMO Brigham was right on this.  The other idea makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I agree with you that it makes sense there is some ultimate reality out there with respect to the next life, and I tend to the like Brigham's view better on this topic.   

 Always nice to find that I agree with at least something that BY said!

[thesometimesaint]

32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yeah, but according to the Oaks quote, we know "so little about the circumstances of the next life". So we do temple work and we seal people together not really understanding how it will work. The teachings about the 3 degrees in the CK seem based almost entirely on speculation about the very vague versus from the OP. So we do all of that even though there is no explanation in scripture, even though we have the NT scripture in Mark about not marrying or being given in marriage.

I'll also note, that no one in the temple is married for deceased people but rather seal already married couples.

It is true that we don't know much about the Celestial Kingdom. However what little we do know, we do know. I like the Gospel according to Mark, but it is not a Proof-text against the Truth Claims of the Church. We are married according the laws of the State, and Sealed according to the laws of God.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Really?

Can you provide a source where God explained the degrees of the Celestial Kingdom?

I've already done that.  There will be those who are married and living the kind of life our Father lives, and there will be those who had the opportunity but chosr to not marry by God's law, and there will also be those who haven't experienced the mortal experience yet (children like we were before we came here).

That's not every detail but it is 3 distinct classes of people.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Or our concepts of kingdoms and progression is so far off from the infinite reality of God, as written they are actually both wrong, perhaps even nonsense.

That's always a possibility, but our concepts are based in scripture so I doubt we are all that far off.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I've already done that.  There will be those who are married and living the kind of life our Father lives, and there will be those who had the opportunity but chosr to not marry by God's law, and there will also be those who haven't experienced the mortal experience yet (children like we were before we came here).

That's not every detail but it is 3 distinct classes of people.

So you are saying the 3 degrees are premortal, ministering servants, and gods?
That's a new one but just as reasonable as (baptized/endowed/sealed) or (single/monogamous/polygamous).

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It really isn't necessary I guess..but isn't it time to fill in some of the gaps that His children are asking??  Guesswork isn't the way to return to the Father.  At what point will He hevelp the saints to better understand things that are now being asked/questioned.  Faith can still survive and maybe even better if the saints can have that line upon line thing..with a line!

Why is it time?  If covenant man has been operating with at times more, at others less knowledge for thousands of years, what has this generation done that makes us be more deserving of answers then the millions of other good hearted, God seeking people?

[Calm]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

That's always a possibility, but our concepts are based in scripture so I doubt we are all that far off.

Scripture is written in a limited language.  I don't think we can use it as a standard of infinite knowledge.

[Darren10]

15 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So I guess the church isn't faithful enough to receive the next line of doctrine on this topic?

Or ready? Or God doesn't care? Or that we'll misuse the knowledge? Or what we have is complete on the topic until a set time comes to reveal more?

Who knows?

In Joseph Smith's time, the Church was under a curse until they more faithfully read the Book of Mormon. I recall President Benson saying that that curse was still active (at least in his time of course). If the church cannot even read that book faithfully enough, why should it be a surprise or mysterious that it may not be ready for more knowledge? And maybe God just doesn't want to reveal it. Again, who knows?

Edited March 30, 2017 by Darren10

[thesometimesaint]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why is it time?  If covenant man has been operating with at times more, at others less knowledge for thousands of years, what has this generation done that makes us be more deserving of answers then the millions of other good hearted, God seeking people?

We are in the Restoration of all Things. However that Restoration may take a while. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Sealed according to the laws of God.

And according to JS, our comprehension of those laws in mortality is minuscule and it will take a quite substantial time to understand what they truly are.  So I am not so sure "what little we know, we do".

It may be akin to what a child 'knows' when they look at the world and see it as flat.

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why is it time?  If covenant man has been operating with at times more, at others less knowledge for thousands of years, what has this generation done that makes us be more deserving of answers then the millions of other good hearted, God seeking people?

Because it has been awhile.  A long time since God has spoken about it.  People are talking about the end of times..about important things.  Why not give them an assurance of the spirit world..?

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So you are saying the 3 degrees are premortal, ministering servants, and gods?
That's a new one but just as reasonable as (baptized/endowed/sealed) or (single/monogamous/polygamous).

Yeah for some of those we need an "All of the above" option to cover combinations.

The number of wives someone has can be simplified though as an either married or not married option.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If the term was "companions" or "friends", would you be so eager to settle for different, likely less?

Probably.  I can't really imagine being comfortable in the celestial when so many will be given less.  it doesn't sound like it's for me.  In the end we end up being the level we really want.  Or whatvere

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Probably.  I can't really imagine being comfortable in the celestial when so many will be given less.  it doesn't sound like it's for me.  In the end we end up being the level we really want.  Or whatvere

Those who will be given less will be those who didn't do more to get more. With everyone being given the opportunity and the help they need to get more.

Only lazy, ungrateful whiners will have a problem with how the system works, I think.

[thesometimesaint]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

And according to JS, our comprehension of those laws in mortality is minuscule and it will take a quite substantial time to understand what they truly are.  So I am not so sure "what little we know, we do".

It may be akin to what a child 'knows' when they look at the world and see it as flat.

Heck; 1/4 adult Americans believes the sun revolves around the earth. Appealing to ignorance really isn't a good way to learn much of anything. IOW. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Those who will be given less will be those who didn't do more to get more. With everyone being given the opportunity and the help they need to get more.

Only lazy, ungrateful whiners will have a problem with how the system works, I think.

Awesome!  Thanks for sharing your enlightened view 

[rongo]

44 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Good answer, although I don't think I'm proof texting any more than every other person who quotes a scripture.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought you were proof-texting. I know you were quoting/referring to those who make this argument. I was merely stating that I don't see why they think it's a slam-dunk against LDS doctrine.

When I read "married or given in marriage" I interpret it as a verb, meaning that people will not be married (or get married) in the next life, not that already married people won't remain married. Does that make sense?

It does, but again, it's not the "married or given in marriage" part that is the problem. It's the "they" (what you refer to as "people"). There is no justification in those proof-texts for arguing that Jesus was making a blanket statement about absolutely all people, worlds without end. He clearly refers to those who don't understand the scriptures and deny the power of God as those who won't marry or be given in marriage. And that is precisely what LDS doctrine is: those who reject this power and authority will not be married in the hereafter.

If during the millennium people will be marrying each other and getting sealed etc, why the need for vicarious work for the dead. Why not allow them to do it for themselves during the millennium?

My answer: the value that *we* get out of doing temple work. I'm likewise unimpressed by people trying to show that most of the work will be done in the Millennium with divine help. I get value out of throwing the starfish back into the ocean that I can get to, even if I will never come close to scratching the surface of all of the starfish. 

If we "know so little" about how things will work in the next life, why do we do temple work as if we understand how it works and what these people want, when they could simply accept and receive the necessary ordinances in the next life or millennium?

I think we know enough to do the work we've been asked to do. And, they can't receive it in the next life --- according to our doctrine, the ordinances have to be done vicariously on the earth while it stands. 

[thesometimesaint]

11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Probably.  I can't really imagine being comfortable in the celestial when so many will be given less.  it doesn't sound like it's for me.  In the end we end up being the level we really want.  Or whatvere

Those that don't want it get exactly what they want. IE; If someone really doesn't want to be with you. Why would you want to force them to be with you?

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Awesome!  Thanks for sharing your enlightened view 

Heh. You're welcome!