Kate Kelly Now Encouraging Others To Leave The Lds Church

[jkwilliams]

Ms. Kate has burned up her fifteen minutes of fame and she has long since become a tinkling cymbal in the "way back" of LDS conversation.  I see nothing new or surprising in her current position.  I agree with jkwilliams; KK has been fooling herself and fooling others from the beginning.  I have never appreciated her approach or her position.  She always represented the example of an individual that has gained a little bit of learning, inflating her ego, and without any wisdom.  She has never understood the value of a wife and mother because she has always demeaned them.  Likewise, she has never understood the value of man as father and husband. 

 

Don't be so shy with your opinions!

[Jeanne]

She didn't encourage anyone to do anything.but to be happy in life. 

[jkwilliams]

She didn't encourage anyone to do anything.but to be happy in life. 

 

That's how I saw it, too. 

[JAHS]

I thought that was me. 

No. I haven't seen you in the news, or trying to sneak in to the women's conference, or publish your own blogs critical against the church, etc.

[jkwilliams]

No. I haven't seen you in the news, or trying to sneak in to the women's conference, or publish your own blogs critical against the church, etc.

 

I was interviewed on French TV. Does that count?

[Guest]

She was always seeking to undermine the Church, now she can do it as a nonmember with no penalty attached. This only reinforces the decision to excommunicate her.

[JAHS]

I was interviewed on French TV. Does that count?

Nope. I don't speak French. 

[CV75]

Here: Kate Kelly: If staying in LDS Church doesn’t ‘spark joy,’ it’s OK to leave

Looks like a case of, "If you can't beat 'em, beat it."

[sethpayne]

I think we get into trouble when we start speculating on who has or had a testimony or how strong it is or was.

 

No kidding.  Especially when we've all been through ups and downs.  

 

I'm sure all of us did things as teenagers and young adults that we wouldn't do today, for example.

[smac97]

JK,

> She wasn't encouraging people to leave but saying that she was no longer encouraging people who aren't happy to stay in the church.

==The title of the piece is "If staying in LDS Church doesn’t ‘spark joy,’ it’s OK to leave."

==And she also said this: "I let her know that staying is not the only honorable choice."

==And this: "Kondo encourages the aspiring de-clutterer to ask themselves: 'Does it spark joy?' If the item does not spark joy, it should be discarded to free up space."

==And this: "It is like discovering air in your lungs for the first time, to let go of the heavy burden of dogma and injustices that act like ritual in Mormonism’s charade."

==And this: "It’s not a sign of defeat or weakness to leave an institution that causes you pain. It’s quite the opposite."

==And this: "I don’t wish for Mormon women to follow me — or to follow anyone. I want them to follow their own hearts, aspirations and dreams. Sometimes the culmination of that journey will lead them out of the church — and that’s O.K.!"

==And this: "There is hope and joy to be found in abundance outside of Mormonism."

==And this: "For many women the safer and more peaceful choice is to leave the church.  Give yourself permission to make the best choice for you."

==And this: "Always remember, you have power. You can exercise that power by sending a message to the church and voting with your feet."

==And this: "You can remove your name from the records of the church as a way to communicate to male church leaders."

==And this: "A mass resignation event is scheduled in Salt Lake City at City Creek Park on Saturday, July 25, at 2 p.m. I think it is important to register dissent and let church leaders know what the cost of their rigidity is."

==And this: "In the end, there is no one true way to dismantle patriarchy. It will take both people on the inside continuing to agitate and people leaving the church and marking their dissent to facilitate the necessary equality overhaul of Mormonism."

==And this: "I wish now to amend my original advice: If the church does not “spark joy” in you, leave with your head held high."

 

==I don't see how these statements can be reconciled with your statement that "She wasn't encouraging people to leave."

 

> As for the "accusations," I know quite a few active LDS, men and women, who think the church devalues women. The difference is that they don't say so in public.

 

==And hence they do not "accuse" the Church.  Quite a difference, that.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited July 18, 2015 by smac97

[smac97]

If they're unhappy, yes. I'd say the same thing.

 

And hence you've established that you would encourage people to leave the LDS Church as well.  That rather proves the point under dispute.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[carbon dioxide]

She wasn't encouraging people to leave but saying that she was no longer encouraging people who aren't happy to stay in the church. As for the "accusations," I know quite a few active LDS, men and women, who think the church devalues women. The difference is that they don't say so in public.

No doubt there are people who think that.  I have a hard time seeing another religion "exalt" women the way the LDS Church does. How many groups say that there is a heavenly mother who is a divine being in her own right.  Being exalted, she is able to do all things.  She can command black holes and other things in the universe to do her will.  How many say that women have the potential to be like our heavenly mother in every way.  All they have to do is be faithful in the few things that God asks of them and they will be ruler over all things.   Yet for some, that is not enough.  So they give up the promises of being rulers over all things for eternity for a pet cause they have in mortality. 

[Freedom]

Having read much of her posts over the years, I have never found her to be honest. She twists the truth, misrepresents comments by church leaders, and contradicts herself at every turn. 

[smac97]

I just realized how strange it is that I haven't said much of anything about Kate Kelly, ever, and all of a sudden, I'm sticking up for her. I stand by statement, however, that there's nothing irresponsible about advising people who aren't happy in an organization that it's OK to leave. I don't think it does anyone any good to stay in any organization that makes them unhappy.

Really? Momentary happiness, or the lack thereof, is the determinative factor in staying with or abandoning "an organization?" Let's flesh this out a bit:

1. If a person is in the Army, defending his country, and at a particular moment is finding that Army life is making him "unhappy," would you encourage him to desert?

2. If a woman is having some difficulties with her husband (not abuse or anything serious, more like malaise or a feeling of neglect), and if that woman feeling at a particular moment that married life is making her "unhappy," would you encourage her to divorce her husband?

3. If a woman is having feelings of discouragement or unhappiness with her children, would you encourage her to abandon her children?

These are not rhetorical questions. I would like you to address them and, if you're of a mind, differentiate them from what Kate Kelly is advocating vis-à-vis the LDS Church.

I guess I don't see the value of what you are advocating, which seems to be the encouragement of fecklessness, self-indulgence, and faithlessness. Every individual on the planet could point to every and any endeavor ever undertaken and within it find a moment when the endeavor is not "sparking joy." To use the lack of such a "spark" as a pretext to abandon the endeavor is, in my view, craven.

Of course, not all "organizations" are created equal. I do not owe any significant fealty to, say, the State of Utah (where I live). So voting "with my feet," as Kate Kelly advocated, would be fine if I were unhappy with living in Utah. I also have a membership with Costco, the Provo Recreation Center, and a credit card contract with American Express. If I did not like the way any of these organizations were treating me, if they were making my life difficult or not "sparking joy," then I would have no problem ditching them.

But then there are some "organizations" which are important, which due deserve loyalty. One's familial obligations cannot be shed simply because they are not, in the moment, "sparking joy." Likewise, joining the military to defend one's country is not a decision that can be unilaterally reversed simply because the individual is not, in the moment, feeling a "spark" of "joy." A person who would abandon "organizations" such as these, based simply on not feeling a "spark" of "joy" at a given moment, would not be lauded. There is nothing admirable about such faithlessness.

So it is, I think, with one's religious beliefs. To abandon them on such feckless grounds as "It's not sparking joy for me at the moment, so I'm outta here!" would be the height of faithlessness.

Moreover, if we look at the various comments made by Kate Kelly in her article, we will note that she starts out with a contemptible-but-mealy-mouthed "it's okay to leave the LDS Church if it's not sparking joy for ya" type of reasoning, but she then proceeds further down the road of such advocacy by accusing the Church of misconduct (characterizing the Church as "an institution that causes you pain," suggesting that there is danger in staying in the LDS Church, and therefore that leaving the Church is "the safer ... choice"), and then to full-throated, in-your-face encouragement to leave ("voting with your feet," "you can remove your name," "it is important to register dissent (by participating in a mass resignation event)," "it will take...people leaving the church... to facilitate... (the) overhaul of Mormonism," "leave with your head held high").

Thanks,

-Smac

[KevinG]

Now if we could only encourage her to leave the Chirch alone...

Funny but when I left Methodism I never felt the need to denounce it.

[smac97]

From the comments to the article (from someone named "Lea"): "Thank you for that, Kate. I admire what you tried to do within the church and I am so glad that you have found joy outside of it. I wanted to let you know that I am going to add my voice to yours and many others and resign from the LDS church on July 25."

And this (from "Poster724"): "Kate's ultimate message, which too many will miss, is simple. Do what empowers you as women. No man or man invented deity is needed to make you complete."

I think these comments are interesting. They treat the LDS Church as if it were merely some sort of social club. But then, that seems to be how Kate Kelly is treating it too...

Thanks,

-Smac

[lithpblithh]

She said some similar things a week ago:

 

http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/ordain-women-founder-kate-kelly/Content?oid=2892420
 

What would you say to people who think that Mormon progressives should vote with their feet?

For the most part, I agree, actually. For many, many women, the safer and more peaceful choice is to leave the LDS Church. Life outside the church is abundant and full of amazing opportunities without the cognitive dissonance. If you feel compelled to leave the church, definitely follow that impulse. It can be a very healthy, loving choice for you and your family.

 

 

[sunstoned]

That's how I saw it, too. 

That is my read also.  IMO in this article she does not come across as trying to convince anyone of a particular path to follow.  

[sunstoned]

She was always seeking to undermine the Church, now she can do it as a nonmember with no penalty attached. This only reinforces the decision to excommunicate her.

I admit I don't have your mind reading skills, but I don't really think she was seeking to undermine the church.

[Calm]

in this article she does not come across as trying to convince anyone of a particular path to follow.

No, she just presents one side as degrading, devaluing women, with male leaders turning women into drones by somehow "coloniz[ing]" their minds and the patriarchal system trying to trap people into playing by their rules while ignoring the harm the critics are so willing to point out; making church, their life dangerous for them by causing pain,heartsickness and exhaustion, senses of being trapped instead of being able to breath, living in agony and anguish, rejected by church leaders and members engaging both in control games and in charades (as in meaningless pretend games perhaps) and as a result having to deal with cog dis, heavy dogma and injustices, undue suffering.....but wait! do not abandon hope yet for the other side of the boundary line opens up a whole new life that is freeing, safer, more peaceful---and has an easy peace, as well as calm, rest, with wonderful experience of resolution and beauty, abundancy, full of hope and joy, full of amazing opportunities on this path...if one is honest. And it is a course that will empower you, will give you a voice that will be listened to where it never happened for real before......just was a charade.

Which would you choose? or

Edited July 18, 2015 by calmoriah

[Robert F. Smith]

That's how I saw it, too. 

That is my read also.  IMO in this article she does not come across as trying to convince anyone of a particular path to follow.  

Seems to me that Kate Kelly well expresses many of the foibles of the "me"-generation:  Lack of self-discipline, lack of maturity, and lack of depth, along with the cult of extreme individuality, contempt for community, family, and the environment, and with a real focus on self-absorption and perhaps hedonism.  "Don't worry, Be happy."  Joy becomes the measure of all things, thus trashing the worthy objectives of Hinduism and Buddhism, for example.  The world's great religions tend to focus on the harsh realities of life, contemplating them without particular concern for childish notions of immediate gratification. 

 

Kate probably thinks that the phrase "Men are that they might have joy," is a male-only privilege, and likely believes (falsely) that men interpret it that way.  Tolerance, patience, and love (which suffereth long and is kind) have no immediate value for Kate.  The Divine Plan of Happiness simply takes too long, and we should be able to have it all right now.  No need to wait for salvation, or to  do the hard work required of the Saints to obtain it.

 

Our blessed, honored pioneer ancestors surely had no time for such puerile nonsense.  Think about that on Pioneer Day next week.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Broker]

The delusion that Kate Kelly, John Dehlin and others fall into, is that they think they are having an influence on the Church. In cyberspace (Ordain Women, Mormon Stories), we all have the fantasy that we're broadcasting to a vast community, when in reality the target audience is very small.

 

I doubt anybody in my ward has any idea with John Dehlin is. More have heard of Ordain Women (but probably not Kate Kelly) because of the Priesthood Session incident. I would guess that 75% of church members have no idea who these people are, or their organizations, and 99% of those who do are not in agreement with their ideas.

 

Everybody wants to be a martyr for a cause, including Kate Kelly. Problem is, nobody really cares.

[Tacenda]

"A mass resignation event is scheduled in Salt Lake City at City Creek Park on Saturday, July 25, at 2 p.m. I think it is important to register dissent and let church leaders know what the cost of their rigidity is."

 

Sure sounds to me like she is encouraging people to leave.

I'm sorry but I just hate these public mass resignations. It's just so immature to me.

[Duncan]

I'm sorry but I just hate these public mass resignations. It's just so immature to me.

 

and they never seem to get the amount they are shooting for anyways, and the reality is in Utah say 100 people resign but in all the missions in Utah they baptize that many plus more

[Kenngo1969]

Smac97,

 

Check your PMs, Dude!