thatjimguy Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Just got done looking at the "Lottery Gambling" thread and it got me thinking about church doctrine. "What do we do when we want an official answer as to church doctrine?" I know that the first step is the bishop, but isn't it just as possible to get LDS folklore from him than anyone else on this forum? I mean, so many of us, like myself come here to ask about what is the real answer to this or that, but no one here really is an authority I would imagine.
Duncan Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Find out if there is an official answer first. I agree that Church handbooks need to be updated though but beyond that just ask around
Scott Lloyd Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Just got done looking at the "Lottery Gambling" thread and it got me thinking about church doctrine. "What do we do when we want an official answer as to church doctrine?" I know that the first step is the bishop, but isn't it just as possible to get LDS folklore from him than anyone else on this forum? I mean, so many of us, like myself come here to ask about what is the real answer to this or that, but no one here really is an authority I would imagine.lds.org 3
cinepro Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Just got done looking at the "Lottery Gambling" thread and it got me thinking about church doctrine. "What do we do when we want an official answer as to church doctrine?" I know that the first step is the bishop, but isn't it just as possible to get LDS folklore from him than anyone else on this forum? I mean, so many of us, like myself come here to ask about what is the real answer to this or that, but no one here really is an authority I would imagine.With all due respect, unless it's a very basic question (or one that is explicitly addressed in the Handbook of Instructions), Bishops are probably one of the worst places to try and get an "official answer" from. This subject comes up often on forums like this, and ultimately you have to decide for yourself what a good definition of "church doctrine" is and then do the research. As Scott pointed out, lds.org is a good place to start, but there is a lot of fallible personal opinion from Church leaders even there. You should also be aware that if you decide to discuss the concept of "church doctrine" with LDS, especially online, their views on the subject can be heavily influenced by the degree to which they agree or disagree with the doctrine being considered. 1
Tacenda Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 This board is a good start. As I eat my humble pie.
Freedom Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 All doctrine is posted on lds.org. Do you have an example?
thatjimguy Posted July 13, 2015 Author Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks all. Yeah I like coming here enough Tacenda, but I do realize I am getting opinions (which is fine) as cinepro stated. But most of the time, I do want to knwo the difference between what we can speculate on and what is already revealed. An example? Well, I tried lds.org for asking about the King Follet discourse if it was official and found it. But I tried looking up "progression between kingdoms" and found nothing. So something like that I guess.
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted July 13, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2015 Just got done looking at the "Lottery Gambling" thread and it got me thinking about church doctrine. "What do we do when we want an official answer as to church doctrine?" I know that the first step is the bishop, but isn't it just as possible to get LDS folklore from him than anyone else on this forum? I mean, so many of us, like myself come here to ask about what is the real answer to this or that, but no one here really is an authority I would imagine.This presumes there IS an official handbbook answer already explained by the church for us for every possible question or problem that comes up in life. There is not. The church is not mommie. We all need to go the the spirit, pray about it and make our own decisions for ourselves. I don't mean that as a put down, it's just that many many have that question and attitude as shown on this thread, Some like Blake Ostler say we do not even have doctrine. Our doctrine largely is "figure it out for yourself by praying about it". That seems not to fit well in this google age where google has an answer for all of life, but maybe it's time to use our own minds to solver our own problems, 5
mfbukowski Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks all. Yeah I like coming here enough Tacenda, but I do realize I am getting opinions (which is fine) as cinepro stated. But most of the time, I do want to knwo the difference between what we can speculate on and what is already revealed. An example? Well, I tried lds.org for asking about the King Follet discourse if it was official and found it. But I tried looking up "progression between kingdoms" and found nothing. So something like that I guess.You get to decide for yourself.. The problem is not important to your salvation.
mfbukowski Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 The gambling problem is "what constitutes gambling?" Being a poker dealer who does not play? Investing in stocks? Options? Real estate? Mutual funds? Having a 401k? Working for a casino? Working for a corporation that owns casinos? Working for a company which sells booze? Thinking about working for a company that might own casinos some day? It goes on forever. There are so many grey areas in life, we have to figure them out for ourselves. 3
thatjimguy Posted July 13, 2015 Author Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks Mfbukowski. I don't have any issues I'm struggling with at the moment, I just wanted to know where to look. So I get that we are on our own on stuff there is not an official answer for. I guess another way to ask what I am getting at is how do we find out if the church does or does not have an official church doctrine about something. Using lds.org search isn't terrible, but it is not great either.
Storm Rider Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 There are pros and cons to almost all things. It may be effective if the Church had a group or quorum that published what is officially recognized doctrine of the Church. On the other hand, the moment you write out all of that doctrine you are limited by the quality of the written and spoken word; does it adequately, completely clarify the issue? This would then lead to responding to that need and before you know it you have a professional clergy looked upon as being the only source of revelation. Fundamentally, our church has the basics spelled out and then it refuses to clarify everything outside of those basics. One of the Church's objectives is to teach each member to how to follow the Spirit, maintain a relationship with the Godhead, and rely on the guidance of the Spirit. Through the Spirit we learn truths and gain a testimony of them. The Church refuses to lead members around spoon-feeding them and setting itself up as the sole source of revelation. It does not view itself as the sole source, but is willing to claim all truth, regardless of where it is found, as its own. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Thanks all. Yeah I like coming here enough Tacenda, but I do realize I am getting opinions (which is fine) as cinepro stated. But most of the time, I do want to knwo the difference between what we can speculate on and what is already revealed. An example? Well, I tried lds.org for asking about the King Follet discourse if it was official and found it. But I tried looking up "progression between kingdoms" and found nothing. So something like that I guess.Progression between kingdoms? Maybe you haven't found it because the most "official" answer we have could be, "We don't know." And let's say, for a second, that there is progression between kingdoms. Human nature being what it is, how many of us do you suppose might, in that event, say, "Repent now? Repent now? Nah! If I can progress between kingdoms later, why, now, I'm just going to worry about being the best Telestial person I can be: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow I die, and if it so be that I am guilty, God will beat me with a few stripes, and at last I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God." As scary as it might be, I'd prefer to go with, "This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, this life is the time for men to perform their labors." Having served at the elbow of two bishops, I don't get people "bad-mouthing" them: Sister Jones's power is going to be shut off tomorrow, Sister Anderson needs a food order because her children haven't had anything to eat to speak of in the last three days, unbeknownst to everyone else in the ward, the bishop just attended the stake disciplinary council of one of the ward's seemingly more-stalwart brethren for adultery, and the Smiths' 16-year-old son was just severely injured in an ATV accident and no one knows for sure if he's going to make it yet. Meanwhile, your issue is, "Bishop, please give me the definitive answers to my questions about the King Follett discourse." And people wonder why, more often than not, a bishop's counsel in the face of such an inquiry is, "Read, study, ponder, pray, go to the temple, get your own answer." And I congratulate you that you have progressed so far beyond the "milk" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ ... faith, repentance, baptism by immersion and by proper authority, laying on of hands by proper authority for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and especially enduring to the end ... that you now can wrestle with the "meat" of the Gospel contained in the King Follett discourse. Me? Still working on getting 100% home teaching. Carry on, Sport! Edited July 13, 2015 by Kenngo1969 2
Sanpitch Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 I'm sort of an outsider but I'm sure the King Follett Discourse is not official doctrine. It's sort of like a lot of other things that people have believed in the past that are not official, walking back to Missouri and etc..
JAHS Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Just got done looking at the "Lottery Gambling" thread and it got me thinking about church doctrine. "What do we do when we want an official answer as to church doctrine?" I know that the first step is the bishop, but isn't it just as possible to get LDS folklore from him than anyone else on this forum? I mean, so many of us, like myself come here to ask about what is the real answer to this or that, but no one here really is an authority I would imagine.General authorities are too busy to take questions from every member. They do however become aware of some issues and will address those in statements or Conference talks. But the main source for "official" doctrine that I know of are the scriptures: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine and instruction (2 Tim. 3:15–16) After that, General Conference talks; official proclamations and statements; teaching materials, manuals, and handbooks published by the church. However, even these can contain some speculation about some doctrines that if you asked a General Authority about it would say, "No not "official" doctrine but we believe it's true". Anything besides the scriptures are mostly interpretations of the doctrine in the scriptures. Your King Follet example, which was printed in the Documentary History of the Church, is accompanied with this note: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes. Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete. …” So we can't exactly call the whole thing "official" church doctrine even though most of it might be considered true doctrine. This is why we need to use our own powers of reasoning, hopefully influenced by the spirit, to help us understand things.Anything that is important for our salvation is in the scriptures. Everything else is just information to enlighten our minds and spirits and help us live this life and move towards exaltation.
rpn Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 I think it is safe to say that no two GA's will necessarily describe or teach some doctrine the same way. And no way does the first presidency have the time to consider and make an collective decision about individual member questions anyway. What we know from the early 19th century evolution discussions is that often the answer is God hasn't told us yet. But sometimes individuals will tell you that God did speak to them on one of those topics, and what He said. Mostly though, we reason together with collective knowledge, and may even arrive at a generally accepted logical result. Doesn't make that Gospel doctrine though. I think it is better to seek truth, knowing that the gospel will incorporate all of it, and we don't presently know all truth. Some things we think are true, may turn out to be not true.
canard78 Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks all. Yeah I like coming here enough Tacenda, but I do realize I am getting opinions (which is fine) as cinepro stated. But most of the time, I do want to knwo the difference between what we can speculate on and what is already revealed.An example? Well, I tried lds.org for asking about the King Follet discourse if it was official and found it. But I tried looking up "progression between kingdoms" and found nothing. So something like that I guess.On the last one, there "officially" isn't an official doctrine:“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965
tonie Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Just got done looking at the "Lottery Gambling" thread and it got me thinking about church doctrine. "What do we do when we want an official answer as to church doctrine?" I know that the first step is the bishop, but isn't it just as possible to get LDS folklore from him than anyone else on this forum? I mean, so many of us, like myself come here to ask about what is the real answer to this or that, but no one here really is an authority I would imagine. As for gambling, Church Handbook is or was, "The Church opposing gambling in all forms." As for questions, you have to follow chain of command. Bishop, Stake President, Higher Authority. If you send a question to Salt Lake, as I understand it, it will be redirected to your direct Preishtood leaders
Popular Post strappinglad Posted July 13, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2015 If you want to see what happens when an organization tries to answer all types of questions, take a look at the US tax code. Hint: bring a forklift. 5
ERayR Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks Mfbukowski. I don't have any issues I'm struggling with at the moment, I just wanted to know where to look. So I get that we are on our own on stuff there is not an official answer for. I guess another way to ask what I am getting at is how do we find out if the church does or does not have an official church doctrine about something. Using lds.org search isn't terrible, but it is not great either. The plan is that God gives us guidelines then watches how we apply them to particular problems. 1
cinepro Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Having served at the elbow of two bishops, I don't get people "bad-mouthing" them: Sister Jones's power is going to be shut off tomorrow, Sister Anderson needs a food order because her children haven't had anything to eat to speak of in the last three days, unbeknownst to everyone else in the ward, the bishop just attended the stake disciplinary council of one of the ward's seemingly more-stalwart brethren for adultery, and the Smiths' 16-year-old son was just severely injured in an ATV accident and no one knows for sure if he's going to make it yet. CFR that there has ever been a Mormon disciplined for adultery and the whole ward didn't know all about it. 2
Calm Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Me for one.....I didn't find out about something until several years later when I wasn't in the ward anymore.
HappyJackWagon Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) I've seen a couple of responses stating that church leaders couldn't possibly have the time to answer all questions or define the doctrine; I'm curious about what they spend the majority of their time doing? Administrating? Are they managers or are they ecclesiastical leaders? Are they prophets telling us the word of God or are they too busy holding meetings? We don't need minute detail on every single subject but there are some doozies out there we know nothing about. If they are too busy with the administration of the business side maybe they could delegate that to a non-ecclesiastical board of directors. If they are too busy with meetings, maybe they should cut back on meetings. We hear a lot about how local leadership should focus on ministering to the needs of the members and not merely administrating. I'm curious if the top eschelons follow that same guidance. No time? Terrible excuse. Edited July 14, 2015 by HappyJackWagon 2
Storm Rider Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 CFR that there has ever been a Mormon disciplined for adultery and the whole ward didn't know all about it. Yes, I know of two situations that no one knew that the person was x'ed in either ward.
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