Women And Apologetics

[juliann]

A question for the women here who speak up for the church: Do you identify as an "apologist?" If not, would you identify as a defender of the church?

 

Why is  "apologetics?" so male dominated?

 

If you are critical of some aspects of the church, do you think that disqualifies you as being an "apologist" or defender?

 

If you do consider yourself a defender of the church, what motivates you?

 

Where are you most comfortable?  (Blogs, message boards, publishing, etc.)

 

I'd appreciate any and all input from women who are putting themselves out there. I think it makes you quite unique and would like to know more about the dynamics from your perspectives.

[3DOP]

Why is almost everything so male dominated? I don't know why men lead, but I don't believe in any conspiracy against the female gender either. Who cares which gender makes the best apologists, painters, lead guitarists, businesspeople, or quarterbacks? What difference does it make that Aaron Rodgers is a man instead of a woman? A Packer fan, a stock investor, a rock music lover, a patron of the arts, and a searcher for truth isn't concerned about gender. Without ever having a rally to help the men decide to "be the best", they are, in virtually every category except kindergarten teacher, nursing, and the most important of all, mother. As an old man in 2015, I say to the young, let men be men and women be women, and stop worrying about what gender leads which category.     

Edited January 12, 2015 by 3DOP

[Rivers]

Why is almost everything so male dominated? I don't know why men lead, but I don't believe in any conspiracy against the female gender either. Who cares which gender makes the best apologists, painters, lead guitarists, businesspeople, or quarterbacks? What difference does it make that Aaron Rodgers is a man instead of a woman? A Packer fan, a stock investor, a rock music lover, a patron of the arts, and a searcher for truth isn't concerned about gender. Without ever having a rally to help the men decide to "be the best", they are, in virtually every category except kindergarten teacher, nursing, and the most important of all, mother. As an old man in 2015, I say to the young, let men be men and women be women, and stop worrying about what gender leads which category.

Amen.

[Calm]

As far as I know it is simple curiosity driving the question of male dominance as well as a desire to include women in apologetics because there are many women who need answers and at times due to the context of why they are asking, it is best when answers come from other women....not all the time, but my experience is such that it is enough of the time that we could really use more women interested in the pursuit.

There is nothing wrong with it being male dominated, I certainly don't see it as a competition and don't even think about it on most occasions and if there wasn't a need for more women's voices because of an expressed need by women needing guidance from women, I wouldn't care and I suspect Juliann would feel the same...let the people who enjoy or feel the need do apologetics.

Unfortunately I've noticed there is definitely a need for more women being able to effectively respond in faithful and accurate ways, so it is something I've begun to pay attention to.

[mtomm]

Why would a man feel the need answer a question not posed to him or bother to explain why the questions don't matter?

[juliann]

Why is almost everything so male dominated? I don't know why men lead, but I don't believe in any conspiracy against the female gender either. Who cares which gender makes the best apologists, painters, lead guitarists, businesspeople, or quarterbacks? What difference does it make that Aaron Rodgers is a man instead of a woman? A Packer fan, a stock investor, a rock music lover, a patron of the arts, and a searcher for truth isn't concerned about gender. Without ever having a rally to help the men decide to "be the best", they are, in virtually every category except kindergarten teacher, nursing, and the most important of all, mother. As an old man in 2015, I say to the young, let men be men and women be women, and stop worrying about what gender leads which category.     

I'm looking for information about what is not about what should be.  So no judgmental comments, please.   

 

Why would a man feel the need answer a question not posed to him or bother to explain why the questions don't matter?

 

Do you think this may be one of the reasons why women don't engage?  (Nothing personal, men!)

Edited January 12, 2015 by juliann

[Ham Clam]

I think this questions answer can also be found in why Philosophy is a male dominated field. I found a few articles here and there about it, but I'm not sure how we can know why.

How many women are at FAIR?

[Ham Clam]

I certainly think we could use more women in the discussion of the polygamy at FAIR. I have not found a single women's commentary there (if you can point me to some, that would be great).

[mtomm]

Yes, I do. No women responded before we were told it wasn't an important topic, there was no need for the question. End of discussion. This wasn't a discussion about men so much as about women and the lack thereof.

On the topic, I think apologetics are important, I enjoy all sides of a discussion even if they make me uncomfortable. I don't consider myself an apologist at all but I like being able to discuss many aspects of an issue.

[Rain]

Until a few years ago I was not familiar with the term "apologist". Now that I am more familiar with it I find it tied together enough with contention and arguments in my mind that I don't really want to identify as an apologist. Ha. Just looked up the definitions and see that is just what an apologist does.

I never saw myself as a defender the faith, but I see it fit me on a non lds message board I visited for over a decade. Rather I self identified as "missionary".

Now I feel my communication skills are pretty limited (seizures), but were I to have that back I tire of the arguments so quickly I don't know that I could ever have my heart in as an apologist.

Edited to add: what motivated me was a love for people and desire for their happiness which I believe comes from a true understanding of doctrine (Elder Packer idea that I am just now barely beginning to understand).

I was most comfortable on a message board, but now would only be comfortable talking one on one, face to face in real life.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Rain

[Tacenda]

Why is almost everything so male dominated? I don't know why men lead, but I don't believe in any conspiracy against the female gender either. Who cares which gender makes the best apologists, painters, lead guitarists, businesspeople, or quarterbacks? What difference does it make that Aaron Rodgers is a man instead of a woman? A Packer fan, a stock investor, a rock music lover, a patron of the arts, and a searcher for truth isn't concerned about gender. Without ever having a rally to help the men decide to "be the best", they are, in virtually every category except kindergarten teacher, nursing, and the most important of all, mother. As an old man in 2015, I say to the young, let men be men and women be women, and stop worrying about what gender leads which category.

This coming from a man.

You gotta walk in our shoes to know I guess. I listened to a podcast talking about just this, maybe Juliann did also. It is the latest Mormon Stories with two women and a man representing FairMormon.

They discussed a little that women are too silent in church, or when a woman speaks up in class she isn't given the same respect. So 3DOP this does need to change, change is a good thing. Evolving through the years there has been some change, lets not put the brakes on this progression. We do need more of women's voices. Whether in Mormon apologetics, politics, or life in general. Let women know it is cute to be smart and when they assert themselves, it's not because they're a &itch!

[JAHS]

They discussed a little that women are too silent in church, or when a woman speaks up in class she isn't given the same respect.

 

This coming from a man.

You gotta walk in our shoes to know I guess. I listened to a podcast talking about just this, maybe Juliann did also. It is the latest Mormon Stories with two women and a man representing FairMormon.

They discussed a little that women are too silent in church, or when a woman speaks up in class she isn't given the same respect. So 3DOP this does need to change, change is a good thing. Evolving through the years there has been some change, lets not put the brakes on this progression. We do need more of women's voices. Whether in Mormon apologetics, politics, or life in general. Let women know it is cute to be smart and when they assert themselves, it's not because they're a &itch!

 

"They discussed a little that women are too silent in church, or when a woman speaks up in class she isn't given the same respect."

 

They aren't silent in my ward. Just as many women as men speak up in our gospel doctrine class and their comments are given just as much respect and value as what the men say. The women leaders in the ward speak up in ward and Bishop's councils and their voices are heard and appreciated. 

[mfbukowski]

I consider myself a defender and not an apologist. But you didn't ask men.

[Ham Clam]

This coming from a man.

You gotta walk in our shoes to know I guess. I listened to a podcast talking about just this, maybe Juliann did also. It is the latest Mormon Stories with two women and a man representing FairMormon.

They discussed a little that women are too silent in church, or when a woman speaks up in class she isn't given the same respect. So 3DOP this does need to change, change is a good thing. Evolving through the years there has been some change, lets not put the brakes on this progression. We do need more of women's voices. Whether in Mormon apologetics, politics, or life in general. Let women know it is cute to be smart and when they assert themselves, it's not because they're a &itch!

Don't normally follow Mormon Stories so I didn't know about the episode, so I'll check it out.

[Ham Clam]

No women are shy about speaking up in my singles ward!

[Tacenda]

No women are shy about speaking up in my singles ward!

I think the younger generation speak up far more than in my age group, thank goodness. Sorry that I didn't post a link the MS podcast, away from a computer. It is right inline with Julian's OP.

[juliann]

I consider myself a defender and not an apologist. But you didn't ask men.

 

Tell me more about that.  And thanks for the comments, ladies.

 

 

 

They aren't silent in my ward. Just as many women as men speak up in our gospel doctrine class and their comments are given just as much respect and value as what the men say. The women leaders in the ward speak up in ward and Bishop's councils and their voices are heard and appreciated. 

 

It is more subtle than that, I think.  We have two former bishops in our ward. Once they talk the debate is over. All a man has to do is pull out his authority position...we seem to assume that priesthood grants greater knowledge as well as power. So all the respect in the world can be shown to women's comments, but men with priesthood authority will often have the final word. I'm not complaining, just pointing this out. I hear a lot of bad information about something I have graduate training in...New Testament. But to say anything would put me in the position of disagreeing with a former bishop...a lot.

[juliann]

Here is the podcast Tacenda referred to  http://mormonstories.org/discussing-gender-mormon-apologetics-nancy-ross-kevin-barney-jessica-finnigan/

[Ham Clam]

I posted in the comments to the podcast that I would like the opposite analysis: men to women ratios in published works attacking the Church, in Sunstone (since it's more liberal? plus not mentioned as something someone in the 'Ex-Mormon Reddit' analyzed), and in critical organizations.

I know even organizations with more Feminist leanings can have higher men to women contributors (like the Mormon Trans-humanism Association, ect).

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ham Clam

[Ham Clam]

Women's issues are a hot topic, so I'm sure there must be study out there why women aren't as active in fields like philosophy as men are.

it feels like a bunch of guessing why without this type of data.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ham Clam

[Tacenda]

Women's issues are a hot topic, so I'm sure there must be study out there why women aren't as active in fields like philosophy as men are.

it feels like a bunch of guessing why without this type of data.

Well maybe it comes from the idea that Eve partook of the fruit and thus the male is in charge because of it, and it spiraled from there. But our saving grace is that just maybe it is all man made thinking for their gain or is an allegory? Oh boy, I better take cover.

[JAHS]

Tell me more about that.  And thanks for the comments, ladies.

 

 

 

It is more subtle than that, I think.  We have two former bishops in our ward. Once they talk the debate is over. All a man has to do is pull out his authority position...we seem to assume that priesthood grants greater knowledge as well as power. So all the respect in the world can be shown to women's comments, but men with priesthood authority will often have the final word. I'm not complaining, just pointing this out. I hear a lot of bad information about something I have graduate training in...New Testament. But to say anything would put me in the position of disagreeing with a former bishop...a lot.

 

Well of course the current Bishop does have the final word;  he is the Bishop after all. But if what you are saying is true and it is the fault of those former Bishops then they are behaving incorrectly, or the other members of the ward are behaving incorrectly if they imply that those former Bishops should have the final word. Part of the problem is that there are a lot of sisters who either don't know the gospel very well and are intimidated by those that do or women that do know the gospel but are too shy about expressing their opinions, themselves believing that the former Bishops should have the final word.  Have no fear and speak up sisters!!  Bring forth good fruits in the service you provide in the ward and people will respect what you have to say.

Edited January 12, 2015 by JAHS

[The Nehor]

Women's issues are a hot topic, so I'm sure there must be study out there why women aren't as active in fields like philosophy as men are.

Well my guess would be women are smart enough to not want to spend years getting a degree so they can serve fast-food.

[why me]

The problem is not specific to the lds church. It is also a problem for general society. Women tend to be more silent or when they do find their voice, they are expected to full a man's role. Why was Thatcher called the Iron Lady? Schooling also has a role to play too. Girls are more or less told that a good girl sits quietly while the boys run around being aggresive. They study and learn in silence. Very few girls are taught the importance of voice.

 

One can also question the priesthood dynamics in church. What is a good relief society member and what is a good priesthood holder? But much has to do with being involved in the socialization process both within the home and within the society. To defend implies aggression. How many women were taught to believe in aggression in defending what they believe in? Or to be aggressive when being a girl or young woman? Very few.

Edited January 12, 2015 by why me

[3DOP]

Why would a man feel the need answer a question not posed to him or bother to explain why the questions don't matter?

 

Hi mtomm.

 

Fair question.

 

Juliann did not impose a restriction limiting men from the discussion. We have discussions all the time here where someone asks a specific group to reply. An opening thread post might address Catholics, Evangelicals, former Mormons, active Mormon, or inactive Mormons to give opinions. More often than not, other groups reply as well, and seldom does anyone takes exception in these forums. I have no intention of entering into dialogue over at "Mormon Women Connect" where I presume I would be out of place.

 

An explanation of why I would seem opposed to the question would have to do with wishing to immediately undermine any assumption that there is something wrong if a particular area of expertise has a disparity of proportion between the genders. I used examples where it would be absurd to claim that there is some kind of collusion among men to keep women from achieving their aspirations. It is possible that the original post had no such assumptions about acceptable ratios, but that does not preclude a reply against those who would divide the genders by influencing young women to believe that their gender has experienced generations of oppression artistically, financially, and in many other ways by men whose motive was to retain masculine ascendancy.

 

Finally, what difference does it make if I am a man? Does being a man disqualify one from having ideas about why men lead in many areas including apologetics?

 

Regards,

 

3DOP

Edited January 12, 2015 by 3DOP