Exalting Gays (Thought Experiment)

[mfbukowski]

Which removes the necessity of the presence of women in deity, one of the huge IMO theological concepts in the LDS faith in contrast to many other Christain faiths.

An interesting trade off.

Cal the more I think about this, I think your idea of further revelation about priestesses will come.

THIS is the way that God can show us more about the importance of women and also clearly define the roles of gender in the family of humankind. I am growing more and more certain that this is the direction that God will lead us.

I think that in the past we were not ready for further revelation- at this point, I think it is essential and will come.

[Calm]

Yes, they give each other compliments frequently. She says: "My, you are so strong!" and he responds "And you look so stunning in that dress!"

And they are also complementary!

Sorry for the vocabulary pedantry.

I love English. It is so fun.

[mfbukowski]

Yes, they give each other compliments frequently. She says: "My, you are so strong!" and he responds "And you look so stunning in that dress!"

And they are also complementary!

Sorry for the vocabulary pedantry.

LOL! got me!!

[Calm]

Cal the more I think about this, I think your idea of further revelation about priestesses will come.

I will take it as a given then.

[Calm]

I don't know where you get the logic to say otherwise. Why would it have to be? Some principle that's not been expressed? Or did I miss something?

I think he is saying if gays are exalted and sealed to each other, this must mean spirit creation is not a male female thing, but perhaps only something that requires more than one person in the covenant with God.

I don't think he is saying any teaching currently implies this (if I understand both his and your post, please ignore if you meant something else) and would likely agree that future revelation is needed to clarify.

[mfbukowski]

I know this isn't the question you were asking, but I'll answer the one you should have asked.

 

They are exalted by subjugating the flesh to the Spirit and either: (1) entering into the New and Everlasting Covenant (with very understanding wives or husbands, I'll grant you ) and enduring to the end in living the Gospel and keeping their covenants; or (2) remaining celibate and enduring to the end in keeping the other covenants they have made.  (Personally, I'd still like to know what the difference is between someone in the second category and someone like me, who, although I am heterosexual, hasn't had the opportunity to be sealed, yet keeps the Law of Chastity.)

 

What's gonna happen to someone who's gay, but who keeps whatever covenants he has made?  What's gonna happen to someone who's not gay but never gets the opportunity to be sealed in this life?  I dunno.    Beats me.  The only thing I'm sure of is that God's never gonna tell anyone who was faithful (gay or straight), "  I know you were hoping for more, or better, or ... different ... and I know this sucks in comparison, but ... sorry; it was the best I could do."

 

Why are some people born gay, while most are born straight?  I dunno.  Why are some born with physical handicaps or mental illness (Hey, I'm two-for-two! )?  "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"  Jesus answered, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God might be made manifest in him."  Mortality isn't fair.  But as Joseph Smith said, "All of [our] losses [whatever they may be], will be made up to us in the Resurrection if we continue faithful."

 

(Yes, I know that's not what you were looking for, at least, not from me.  We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.)

I think that one of the great strengths of the church is that we at least have SOME explanation for those who are forced into a path more difficult and less conventional than we who do not have to bear these burdens. Many sisters, for example also have problems finding worthy husbands. But at least we know that in the resurrection we will all be judged and rewarded for our merits and our ability to deal with the conditions we experience in this life.

I personally think that those who have overcome these kind of trials and remain faithful will receive some kind of "bonus points" for all they have had to face in this life which others have not.

[Brian 2.0]

I think he is saying if gays are exalted and sealed to each other, this must mean spirit creation is not a male female thing, but perhaps only something that requires more than one person in the covenant with God.

I don't think he is saying any teaching currently implies this (if I understand both his and your post, please ignore if you meant something else) and would likely agree that future revelation is needed to clarify.

 

You are correct on what I was getting at.

[Garden Girl]

I think that one of the great strengths of the church is that we at least have SOME explanation for those who are forced into a path more difficult and less conventional than we who do not have to bear these burdens. Many sisters, for example also have problems finding worthy husbands. But at least we know that in the resurrection we will all be judged and rewarded for our merits and our ability to deal with the conditions we experience in this life.

I personally think that those who have overcome these kind of trials and remain faithful will receive some kind of "bonus points" for all they have had to face in this life which others have not.

 

One of my favorite things... I have a booklet by Elder M. Russell Ballard titled "As Women of God," adapted from his talk given at the 2001 BYU Women's Conference: Here I Am, Send Me."

He states... "The First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles 'solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.'

This doctrine sometimes causes women (or men) to ask: Is a woman's (or man's) value dependent upon her (his) role as a wife (husband) and mother (father)? 

The answer is simple and obvious -- No!  Motherhood (Fatherhood) and marital status are not the only measures of a woman's (man's) worth.  Some women (men) do not have the privilege of marrying or rearing children in this life.  To the worthy, these blessings will come later."

 

Parentheses mine...

 

I also believe that we have no idea what the procreative process will entail, except that all of our laws in the human, animal, and plant world involve "male and female" except in a handful of situations with the very lowest of creatures. Nor do I believe that it will be like our experience here in this sphere...  I do not believe women will be eternally pregnant... perish the throught... but I do believe they will be partners in the creative process... and agree with Calmoriah that further revelation is needed to clarify (See D&C 101: 32 - 34)

 

GG

Edited December 28, 2014 by Garden Girl

[california boy]

California Boy the difference between you and I is I know my condition makes me a sinner and I can't wait to be healed. You believe your condition is not a sin therefore you have no need to be healed.

 

Actually the difference between you and I is you think you know the will of God in SSA and SSM, I believe there has been no revelation from God on this subject.  Is someone living the law of chastity if sex is within the bounds of marriage?  Is it the will of God for some of his children to live their entire life without the joy and blessing of a companionship that is offered and in fact encouraged for all his other children?  Is it not good for man to be alone unless you are gay?  You believe God has answered these questions, I do not.  Until we know the answer to these questions from God, whether it is a sin or not is just speculation.

 

The only question for me is how "exalted gays" fits into Mormon doctrine.

So far all I have heard is crickets.

 

Exactly.

[california boy]

I know this isn't the question you were asking, but I'll answer the one you should have asked.

 

They are exalted by subjugating the flesh to the Spirit and either: (1) entering into the New and Everlasting Covenant (with very understanding wives or husbands, I'll grant you ) and enduring to the end in living the Gospel and keeping their covenants; or (2) remaining celibate and enduring to the end in keeping the other covenants they have made.  (Personally, I'd still like to know what the difference is between someone in the second category and someone like me, who, although I am heterosexual, hasn't had the opportunity to be sealed, yet keeps the Law of Chastity.)

 

What's gonna happen to someone who's gay, but who keeps whatever covenants he has made?  What's gonna happen to someone who's not gay but never gets the opportunity to be sealed in this life?  I dunno.    Beats me.  The only thing I'm sure of is that God's never gonna tell anyone who was faithful (gay or straight), "  I know you were hoping for more, or better, or ... different ... and I know this sucks in comparison, but ... sorry; it was the best I could do."

 

Why are some people born gay, while most are born straight?  I dunno.  Why are some born with physical handicaps or mental illness (Hey, I'm two-for-two! )?  "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"  Jesus answered, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God might be made manifest in him."  Mortality isn't fair.  But as Joseph Smith said, "All of [our] losses [whatever they may be], will be made up to us in the Resurrection if we continue faithful."

 

(Yes, I know that's not what you were looking for, at least, not from me.  We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.)

 

Then let me explain to you the difference between someone like you who is straight and celibate in this life and someone who is gay and celibate in this life.

 

You are promised that in the next life, you will have the opportunity to find a wife to love and cherish and be married for all eternity.  Sounds pretty promising don't you think?  Perhaps worth being celibate and spending this life alone without any companionship?

 

I am NOT promised that I will have a same sex companion in the next life that I will love, cherish and be able to marry for eternity.  But "possibly" I will be magically changed to be something I was not on earth and have the opportunity to be married to someone of the opposite sex, who I didn't want to spend this earth life with.  But somehow this is going to be something I will like for eternity. yippee, I can hardly wait.

 

You, the plan seems to be understood.  For gays, like mfbukowski has stated,  crickets.

[CMZ]

THIS is the way that God can show us more about the importance of women and also clearly define the roles of gender in the family of humankind.

 

I don't know 100% what may or may not come in the future but I do think it's erroneous to think that women only become important if given the priesthood (or priestesshood).

[CMZ]

Then let me explain to you the difference between someone like you who is straight and celibate in this life and someone who is gay and celibate in this life.

 

You are promised that in the next life, you will have the opportunity to find a wife to love and cherish and be married for all eternity.  Sounds pretty promising don't you think?  Perhaps worth being celibate and spending this life alone without any companionship?

 

I am NOT promised that I will have a same sex companion in the next life that I will love, cherish and be able to marry for eternity.  But "possibly" I will be magically changed to be something I was not on earth and have the opportunity to be married to someone of the opposite sex, who I didn't want to spend this earth life with.  But somehow this is going to be something I will like for eternity. yippee, I can hardly wait.

 

You, the plan seems to be understood.  For gays, like mfbukowski has stated,  crickets.

 

 

Reconciling same-sex attraction with a religious life can present an especially trying dilemma. Anyone who lives in both worlds can attest to its difficulty. But with faith, love and perspective it can be done. Every human being, Latter-day Saints affirm, has worth and dignity as a child of God. In this respect we are all equal. Our lives here on earth are full of joys and sorrows. But God created each of us for greater destinies. Gender is an eternal characteristic. Latter-day Saints believe that the family is the central unit of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our most cherished relationships can, under the right conditions, last for eternity.

We believe that with an eternal perspective, a person’s attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this life’s challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.

Where love is there is hope also. Everyone experiences the desperation of temptation and the emptiness of sin. This is the common condition of humankind. Nevertheless, Latter-day Saints believe that the “good news” of Jesus Christ shows that these adversities are not final. They are part of the test of mortality that all people must undergo. God’s plan for our lives rests on the powerful notion of free will and spiritual self-determination. Christ’s grace will take care of the rest. With Him, each of us can walk the path, and chart the destiny of our own spiritual lives. God will work out all the confusion and contradiction. With our small window into God’s grand plan of happiness, let us forever lean on the side of hope, with faith that what seems to us a trial will actually turn out to be a blessing.

http://mormonsandgays.org/

[mfbukowski]

Is someone living the law of chastity if sex is within the bounds of marriage?  Is it the will of God for some of his children to live their entire life without the joy and blessing of a companionship that is offered and in fact encouraged for all his other children?  Is it not good for man to be alone unless you are gay?  You believe God has answered these questions, I do not.  Until we know the answer to these questions from God, whether it is a sin or not is just speculation.

Are you serious?

 

You actually think that there has not been any revelation saying that homosexuality is sinful?  Have you ever read the bible at all?  Have you read the Proclamation on the Family?  Have you read ANY of the statements of the General Authorities?

 

You may dispute the validity of these statements but to say that "we do not know... whether it is a sin or not" while awaiting more revelation is just absurd.

 

Who is supposed to receive this revelation?

 

Are you even aware that other members of humanity who are NOT gay have this same problem? You just seem totally myopic on this issue. 

 

I know this isn't the question you were asking, but I'll answer the one you should have asked.

 

They are exalted by subjugating the flesh to the Spirit and either: (1) entering into the New and Everlasting Covenant (with very understanding wives or husbands, I'll grant you ) and enduring to the end in living the Gospel and keeping their covenants; or (2) remaining celibate and enduring to the end in keeping the other covenants they have made.  (Personally, I'd still like to know what the difference is between someone in the second category and someone like me, who, although I am heterosexual, hasn't had the opportunity to be sealed, yet keeps the Law of Chastity.)

 

What's gonna happen to someone who's gay, but who keeps whatever covenants he has made?  What's gonna happen to someone who's not gay but never gets the opportunity to be sealed in this life?  I dunno.     Beats me.  The only thing I'm sure of is that God's never gonna tell anyone who was faithful (gay or straight), "   I know you were hoping for more, or better, or ... different ... and I know this sucks in comparison, but ... sorry; it was the best I could do."

 

Why are some people born gay, while most are born straight?  I dunno.  Why are some born with physical handicaps or mental illness (Hey, I'm two-for-two! )?  "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"  Jesus answered, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God might be made manifest in him."  Mortality isn't fair.  But as Joseph Smith said, "All of [our] losses [whatever they may be], will be made up to us in the Resurrection if we continue faithful."

 

(Yes, I know that's not what you were looking for, at least, not from me.   We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.)

  Edited December 28, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Then let me explain to you the difference between someone like you who is straight and celibate in this life and someone who is gay and celibate in this life.

 

You are promised that in the next life, you will have the opportunity to find a wife to love and cherish and be married for all eternity.  Sounds pretty promising don't you think?  Perhaps worth being celibate and spending this life alone without any companionship?

 

I am NOT promised that I will have a same sex companion in the next life that I will love, cherish and be able to marry for eternity.  But "possibly" I will be magically changed to be something I was not on earth and have the opportunity to be married to someone of the opposite sex, who I didn't want to spend this earth life with.  But somehow this is going to be something I will like for eternity. yippee, I can hardly wait.

 

You, the plan seems to be understood.  For gays, like mfbukowski has stated,  crickets.

Can't you see that you totally missed the point?

What has been said on this thread is that you WILL be "cured" from homosexuality as others will be cured from handicaps, etc.

The difference is that you disagree that you need to be "cured". Others could also maintain that, but they do not.

What is the difference?

[Calm]

I don't know 100% what may or may not come in the future but I do think it's erroneous to think that women only become important if given the priesthood (or priestesshood).

I don't think that is what he meant.

 

They are equal in importance in one area already to men in an eternal basis as exaltation takes place in pairs.  But at the moment we don't know much beyond that as to what is their role and why their gender will be an essential part of it.  We need more revelation to understand and be able to make full use what we know at this point.  There are too many inferences being made about women by members and even some leaders haven't followed through on what comments they've made imply that lessen the sense of individual value for many women.  Revelation can clarify this and remove problematic understandings.

 

We also have little knowledge of what Heavenly Mother has, is she just Wisdom and a councilor or is there a power in her role that is different, needed in order to complement the Priesthood of God the Father.  I believe that there is and I believe that eventually she will gift it to her daughters.  I don't see it as something completely alien to the Priesthood of the Father.  I think of it with an analogy….some ultimate source of power that is then refracted through the Father and the Mother into their particular version of Priesthood/Priestesshood.  In joining them back together as one through an exalted couple exercising these powers and authorities to act first in the name of the Father and then someday in the name of the Mother, the result of the blended powers is somehow strengthened and refined and added glory unto just as exercising love together will add strength and dimension and glory that were not present when that love had no one to exchange it with.

 

I don't mean to imply there is no overlap or that only women will be able to exercise some aspects of the Mother's Power and Authority, but simply that it will operate in the same way as the Priesthood does among women.  The Priesthood/Priestesshood will be at its best when both are exercising their version of the Divine Power (not anthropomorphizing it, the Divine Power is the Power of the Divine Family…the extended version with all of the Father and the Mother's children and if there are 'aunts and uncles' with their family, grandparents, etc).

Edited December 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[Hamba Tuhan]

There is no revelation of which I am aware that says same sex attraction is not an eternal characteristic.

 

I find it interesting that you would think we need a revelation on this topic when the construct of sexual orientation (hetero-, homo-, etc.) has a known genealogy stretching back only to the late 19th century ... which, it would seem to me, is a bit short of eternal already.

[california boy]

Are you serious?

 

You actually think that there has not been any revelation saying that homosexuality is sinful?  Have you ever read the bible at all?  Have you read the Proclamation on the Family?  Have you read ANY of the statements of the General Authorities?

 

You may dispute the validity of these statements but to say that "we do not know... whether it is a sin or not" while awaiting more revelation is just absurd.

 

Who is supposed to receive this revelation?

 

Are you even aware that other members of humanity who are NOT gay have this same problem? You just seem totally myopic on this issue. 

 

 

We have learned through sad experience that preventing a group of Gods children from receiving temple marriage simply based on the statements of a prophet or even the statements of the first presidency or even the consensus of the apostles who lack a revelation from God may very well not be the will of God.  

 

Point to me an actual revelation from God to his prophet where He has told him that same sex marriages and sex within those marriages, just like opposite sex marriages and sex within those marriages are not worthy of temple blessings.  Point me to  a revelation where God has said that same sex attraction disappears in the next life.  Revelation from God is how the church used to determined doctrine.  Has it now come down to working out a statement by committee and then taking a vote on it when we want to know the will of God?  If so, then how is this still the church of God?  Show me where prophets in the scriptures sat down by committee and worked up a revelation from God.

 

20 years from now, apologists may very well be saying that our thinking was wrong in 2014.  Forget all that has been said.  God has finally spoken.  Now ALL of Gods children are welcome into the plan of salvation through temple marriage.  The law of chastity is, as it always has been, only sexual relations within the bonds of marriage.  Everything else is a sin in the site of God.

[california boy]

Can't you see that you totally missed the point?

What has been said on this thread is that you WILL be "cured" from homosexuality as others will be cured from handicaps, etc.

The difference is that you disagree that you need to be "cured". Others could also maintain that, but they do not.

What is the difference?

 

I hate to break it to you, but what is said on this thread is not always doctrine, nor is it always the will of God.  Saying that homosexuality is a handicap and needs to be viewed the same as someone being bald or blind may not actually be true.  

 

I view people who are left handed as being not like me and as such not normal.  Most people agree.  When you are right handed, it is the natural way to write, Using scissors is easier, batting a baseball is more correct.  Need I go on?  

 

We all should be right handed.  It is how God intended us to be.  He has even stated that the right hand of God is the coveted place to be.  So all who are resurrected must be changed from being left handed to being right handed.  The scriptures are quite clear.  

 

Unfortunately being attracted to the same sex is much more serious and has far greater implications than simply changing hand preference.

[california boy]

I find it interesting that you would think we need a revelation on this topic when the construct of sexual orientation (hetero-, homo-, etc.) has a known genealogy stretching back only to the late 19th century ... which, it would seem to me, is a bit short of eternal already.

 

Wait.  Are you stating that you think homosexuals have only existed since the late 19 century because that is when the word came into use?  Or am I misreading what you stated.

[rodheadlee]

Actually the difference between you and I is you think you know the will of God in SSA and SSM, I believe there has been no revelation from God on this subject.  Is someone living the law of chastity if sex is within the bounds of marriage?  Is it the will of God for some of his children to live their entire life without the joy and blessing of a companionship that is offered and in fact encouraged for all his other children?  Is it not good for man to be alone unless you are gay?  You believe God has answered these questions, I do not.  Until we know the answer to these questions from God, whether it is a sin or not is just speculation.

 

 

Exactly.

You just proved my point. The reasons don't really matter.

[Kenngo1969]

I love English. It is so fun.

Try German.  Sixteen different ways to say the word the, depending on what the refers to.

[Kenngo1969]

California Boy,

 

I'd be interested in your answer to my question, if you're so inclined.  Set aside, for the moment, the prospect that The Resurrected You will not be gay.  Whatever happens, do you really think an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving God would tell you, a gay man, if you chose to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ and keep the covenants you have made, when He presents you with your eternal reward, "Sorry.  I know you were hoping for something more, or better, or different, but ... This is the best I could do?"

 

That would be like the Resurrected Me going to the equivalent of a Stake Singles Dance on the other side and with a ponderous sigh, saying, "Well, here are the dregs (albeit the resurrected dregs) of female humanity.  Everybody else got who they wanted in the previous life, but, me?  Well, I guess I'll just have to make do with what I can get.  Hope my and the future Mrs. Go1969's future spirit children aren't too ugly."

Edited December 28, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Jeanne]

I have a handicap.  I cannot hear.  As far as I know, It is possible for me to eventually be sealed in a Temple through the process of repentance in which hearing has nothing to do with it.   Saying that SSA is a handicap with no reference to scripture or revelation is just another "speaking as a man" thing that can change at anytime. The arrogance of the thinking as a "handicap" in the eternities is an injustice to anyone on this earth who has a physical handicap.  I can't wait to hear again should that be so..however, my spirituality and character and who I am is hardly connected to sound. 

[Daniel2]

I think he is saying if gays are exalted and sealed to each other, this must mean spirit creation is not a male female thing, but perhaps only something that requires more than one person in the covenant with God.

Today's limited medical science is far inferior from divine omnipotence. Would you agree?

And yet, modern science, crude and limited as it may be when compared to godly all-powerfulness, has already begun thr process to finding a way to create both egg and sperm from a single-gendered parent/s. As posted on a separate thread:

Scientists create artificial human eggs and sperm

http://www.cbsnews.c...eggs-and-sperm/

JESSICA FIRGER

CBS NEWS

Dec 26, 2014 1:45 PM EST

A group of scientists has created artificial human sperm and eggs using human embryonic stem cells and skin cells. While researchers have already previously accomplished this using rodents, this is the first time they were able to replicate the process with human cells.

Their final products were not actually working sperm and eggs, but rather germ cells that potentially could mature and become viable for fertility. The study's findings were published Wednesday in the journal Cell.

"Germ cells are 'immortal' in the sense that they provide an enduring link between all generations, carrying genetic information from one generation to the next," Azim Surani, PhD, professor of physiology and reproduction at the University of Cambridge, said in a press release.

When an egg is fertilized by a sperm, it begins to divide into a group of cells called a blastocyst, which is the stage right before the embryo is formed. Some of the cells inside this blastocyst cluster will develop into a fetus, while others eventually become the placenta.

Some cells are set up to become stem cells, which will then have the potential to develop into any type of cell in the body. And some cells in the fetus become primordial germ cells and eventually evolve into the cells of either sperm or eggs, which will allow this offspring to pass their genes on to a future generation.

In the study, the researchers identified a single gene known as SOX17, which is directly responsible for ordering human stem cells to become the cells that will turn into sperm and eggs. The scientists say this discovery on its own is surprising, because this gene is not involved in the creation of primordial cells in rodents. In humans, the SOX17 gene is also involved in helping to develop cells of the lungs, gut and pancreas.

The scientists harvested these cells by culturing human embryonic stem cells for five days. They then showed that the same process could be replicated using adult skin cells.

This doesn't mean men and women will soon be donating skin cells rather than sperm and egg at fertility clinics. Eventually, however, the findings could open the door to more intensive research on human genetics and certain cancers, and could impact fertility treatments sometime in the future.

This study also provides another way to closely examine how the environment impacts and changes genes, and why we inherit very specific gene expressions -- a phenomenon that's the basis for a growing field of research known as epigentics. Factors such as the air we breathe, the food we eat and whether or not we smoke can activate and deactivate genes, all of which become a part of a person's DNA passed down to their offspring.

Many experts say that studying epigenetics may lead to a clearer understanding of age-related diseases such as cancer, since the changes lie not in the DNA itself, but rather the surrounding chemicals that make proteins and even facilitate new cell growth, including the cells that make up sperm and eggs.

I believe this article has merit in this "thought experiment" discussion on exalting gays.

How limited and paltry our own understanding of procreation is. We assume it is all about biology, and that celestial procreation is bound to the same limitations we currently experience on earth.

I suggest that we do not know and cannot even imagine what we do not know about what existence will be after mortality.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Daniel2

[JLHPROF]

Today's limited medical science is far inferior from divine omnipotence. Would you agree?

And yet, modern science, crude and limited as it may be when compared to godly all-powerfulness, has already found a way to create both egg and sperm from a single-gendered parent/s. As posted on a separate thread:

I believe this article dhas merit in this "thought experiment" discussion on exaltin gays.

How limited and paltry our own understanding of procreation is. We assume it is all about biology, and that celestial procreation is bound to the same limitations we currently experience on earth.

I suggest that we do not know and cannot even imagine what we do not know about what existence will be after mortality.

 

There is a huge difference between what can be accomplished and the method God has ordained for it to be accomplished.

Just because we have come up with alternate methods to do something, doesn't mean they apply to the eternal order.