Exalting Gays (Thought Experiment)

[mfbukowski]

That raises  the very touchy question of how Mother Mary conceived Jesus.  What does it mean to be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit?  Was it like a lightning bolt from the blue?  Or is Brother Brigham's more earthy concept applicable?  Mainstream Christians claim to be shocked by the Mormon notion of a true reproductive conception of Jesus, but is that truly the Mormon doctrine?  If so, doesn't that verify sexuality in the Celestial Kingdom?  Or not?

Agreed.  I think it is clear from the Proclamation that the belief is that sexuality continues, I am sure in ways we cannot imagine now.

[mfbukowski]

 Perfect bodies don't have imperfect feelings as our mortal ones do.

What about the whole "weeping God" myth?  (as in "theory" or "belief")

[Garden Girl]

I do not see any scriptural reference to those in the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms not having gender... nothing in Sec 76 or 132 where it describes the various degrees and the inhabitants thereof... only that they differ in "glory" from the Celestial, that they do not marry but stay singly and separately without exaltation but are angels of God without increase... I don't see anything indicating that that translates into being genderless...

 

GG

[rodheadlee]

California Boy the difference between you and I is I know my condition makes me a sinner and I can't wait to be healed. You believe your condition is not a sin therefore you have no need to be healed.

[Brian 2.0]

California Boy the difference between you and I is I know my condition makes me a sinner and I can't wait to be healed. You believe your condition is not a sin therefore you have no need to be healed.

 

This is the meat of the entire issue.  All debates on SSA and SSM and the like really often comes down to this one difference in belief.

 

ETA:  I will also add that there is another group that feels SSA is something that will be healed in the next life, but that the affliction is so all encompassing that keeping celibate and single your whole life is such a great cost and is often trying to run faster than you have strength.  

Edited December 27, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[JLHPROF]

What about the whole "weeping God" myth?  (as in "theory" or "belief")

 

If God weeps, then sorrow is not an imperfect emotion.  God is perfect after all.

[Deborah]

I don't see anything indicating that that translates into being genderless...

 

GG

 

Nor I. I think that the change will be in our attitudes and that at that point we will be purified to the point that any inappropriate desires will be removed. I also believe that sexuality will be on such a higher plane that we can't even imagine. It will still be present but not in the way we see it in mortal, imperfect existence.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Deborah

[Brian 2.0]

If God weeps, then sorrow is not an imperfect emotion. God is perfect after all.

Will resurrected sons of perdition have imperfect emotions?

[Kenngo1969]

... And Stargazer, there is no revelation of which I am aware that says same sex attraction is not an eternal characteristic (if you want to point to The Proclamation, let me state that it does not address this issue, 

 

Perhaps the Proclamation on the Family does not address same-sex relationships directly, no; but, for those with "ears to hear," it does do so quite clearly, if indirectly.

 

... and its status as a revelation is dubious at best IMO ...

 

 

Revelation and canonization are different things.  Something need not be canonized to qualify as revelation.  The only thing necessary for revelation is for someone to speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost.  See Doctrine and Covenants 68:3-4. Whether or not those words are canonized is of little consequence.  And if one person is capable of receiving revelation in that way, then, surely, members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, acting in concert are all the more capable of receiving revelation in that way.  Bottom line?  If you want to dismiss the Proclamation because it has not been canonized, that is your choice: as for me and my house ...

[Coreyb]

Perhaps the Proclamation on the Family does not address same-sex relationships directly, no; but, for those with "ears to hear," it does do so quite clearly, if indirectly.

 

 

Revelation and canonization are different things.  Something need not be canonized to qualify as revelation.  The only thing necessary for revelation is for someone to speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost.  See Doctrine and Covenants 68:3-4. Whether or not those words are canonized is of little consequence.  And if one person is capable of receiving revelation in that way, then, surely, members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, acting in concert are all the more capable of receiving revelation in that way.  Bottom line?  If you want to dismiss the Proclamation because it has not been canonized, that is your choice: as for me and my house ...

The specific question I was responding to is whether or not same sex attraction is a trait that goes on after death or is it rather a temporary affliction such as lameness or bald-headed-ness etc.

[JLHPROF]

The specific question I was responding to is whether or not same sex attraction is a trait that goes on after death or is it rather a temporary affliction such as lameness or bald-headed-ness etc.

 

Temporary affliction.  My opinion.  Negative trait like a bad temper, a gluttonous appetite, debiliitating shyness, violent temper, etc.

Just something to either be overcome or removed in the resurrection.

[JLHPROF]

Will resurrected sons of perdition have imperfect emotions?

 

Resurrected bodies contain varying degrees of glory (or you can say truth/light).  Perdition is full of falsehood (hence Satan was a liar from the beginning) and the reason they will experience the second death (death of the spirit).

 

Those that receive eternal life will have various degrees of light/truth, but that doesn't mean they will be allowed to continue in falsehood.

[mfbukowski]

Perfect bodies don't have imperfect feelings as our mortal ones do.

At least, that's my opinion on the whole subject.

If God weeps, then sorrow is not an imperfect emotion.  God is perfect after all.

Come on you can do better than this. Totally circular.

Perfect bodies don't have imperfect feelings, but if God has the feeling then it cannot be imperfect.

So if God has ...whatever... feelings then they are also not imperfect. Or not. Whatever. As if any of us know anything about this.

We might as well ask a worm how the internet works

Edited December 27, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

The only question for me is how "exalted gays" fits into Mormon doctrine.

So far all I have heard is crickets.

[JLHPROF]

Come on you can do better than this. Totally circular.

Perfect bodies don't have imperfect feelings, but if God has the feeling then it cannot be imperfect.

So if God has ...whatever... feelings then they are also not imperfect. Or not. Whatever. As if any of us know anything about this.

We might as well ask a worm how the internet works

 

I don't think it's circular.  God has a perfect body and mind, so the only emotions God has are the same ones we will have when we become like him, the perfect ones.

God (and we) will not have imperfect emotions - lust, hatred, irrational anger (vs righteous indignation), selfishness etc. and I believe this includes homosexual feelings.

God (and we) will still have emotions - love, kindness, sorrow for sin, righteous sexual desire to procreation.

 

Hardly circular, even if it is debatable by many.

At least that's the opinion of this lowly worm.

[Brian 2.0]

The only question for me is how "exalted gays" fits into Mormon doctrine.

So far all I have heard is crickets.

Creation of spirit children would have to be a process that does not require a male and a female. Not much is revealed on that process I guess.

[mfbukowski]

I don't think it's circular.  God has a perfect body and mind, so the only emotions God has are the same ones we will have when we become like him, the perfect ones.

God (and we) will not have imperfect emotions - lust, hatred, irrational anger (vs righteous indignation), selfishness etc. and I believe this includes homosexual feelings.

God (and we) will still have emotions - love, kindness, sorrow for sin, righteous sexual desire to procreation.

 

Hardly circular, even if it is debatable by many.

At least that's the opinion of this lowly worm.

I certainly did not mean to call you a worm- I was saying we all are worms, even trying to figure this out.

I am sorry. I am very into understanding what words cannot do. I understand your basic point, however, and think it is a good one. Surely we have higher emotions and lower emotions. How to define those is another issue. I just meant to comment on how hard it is to put into words.

[Calm]

Creation of spirit children would have to be a process that does not require a male and a female. Not much is revealed on that process I guess.

Which removes the necessity of the presence of women in deity, one of the huge IMO theological concepts in the LDS faith in contrast to many other Christain faiths.

An interesting trade off.

[mfbukowski]

Creation of spirit children would have to be a process that does not require a male and a female. Not much is revealed on that process I guess.

Agreed. That is precisely what I have problems with. It goes to the whole yin yang thing, or as we say, opposition in all things. I think the female psyche is very different than the male psyche and I think they are complimentary.

[mfbukowski]

Which removes the necessity of the presence of women in deity, one of the huge IMO theological concepts in the LDS faith in contrast to many other Christain faiths.

An interesting trade off.

And a huge problem for LDS theology. This is precisely why it must remain as it is.

We might as well be Presbyterians.

There is no longer a need for Female as an eternal principle. No need for Goddesses.

What is not understood is that ordaining women leads to the exact same end. We are all androids. Women need their own priestesshood

Edited December 27, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

Thankyou for the CFR, and I thought it was going to be a quick search, but it is not. I definitely remember reading this in a source which I believe was authoritative. But perhaps I was hallucinating. I will get back with you on this. If I misremembered, I would definitely like to correct my error of understanding.

Given what Brian 2.0 found, which is apparently where I read it initially, I guess I will consider my CFR met by stating that apparently I was wrong about this matter. I still don't see where sexuality has any place in anyone other than CKers who are in the highest level of that kingdom.

Retracted.

[Stargazer]

Agreed. That is precisely what I have problems with. It goes to the whole yin yang thing, or as we say, opposition in all things. I think the female psyche is very different than the male psyche and I think they are complimentary.

Yes, they give each other compliments frequently. She says: "My, you are so strong!" and he responds "And you look so stunning in that dress!"

And they are also complementary!

Sorry for the vocabulary pedantry.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

Creation of spirit children would have to be a process that does not require a male and a female. Not much is revealed on that process I guess.

On the contrary, I think it does. I don't know where you get the logic to say otherwise. Why would it have to be? Some principle that's not been expressed? Or did I miss something?

[Kenngo1969]

The only question for me is how "exalted gays" fits into Mormon doctrine.

So far all I have heard is crickets.

I know this isn't the question you were asking, but I'll answer the one you should have asked.

 

They are exalted by subjugating the flesh to the Spirit and either: (1) entering into the New and Everlasting Covenant (with very understanding wives or husbands, I'll grant you ) and enduring to the end in living the Gospel and keeping their covenants; or (2) remaining celibate and enduring to the end in keeping the other covenants they have made.  (Personally, I'd still like to know what the difference is between someone in the second category and someone like me, who, although I am heterosexual, hasn't had the opportunity to be sealed, yet keeps the Law of Chastity.)

 

What's gonna happen to someone who's gay, but who keeps whatever covenants he has made?  What's gonna happen to someone who's not gay but never gets the opportunity to be sealed in this life?  I dunno.    Beats me.  The only thing I'm sure of is that God's never gonna tell anyone who was faithful (gay or straight), "  I know you were hoping for more, or better, or ... different ... and I know this sucks in comparison, but ... sorry; it was the best I could do."

 

Why are some people born gay, while most are born straight?  I dunno.  Why are some born with physical handicaps or mental illness (Hey, I'm two-for-two! )?  "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"  Jesus answered, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God might be made manifest in him."  Mortality isn't fair.  But as Joseph Smith said, "All of [our] losses [whatever they may be], will be made up to us in the Resurrection if we continue faithful."

 

(Yes, I know that's not what you were looking for, at least, not from me.  We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.)

Edited December 28, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Robert F. Smith]

Agreed. That is precisely what I have problems with. It goes to the whole yin yang thing, or as we say, opposition in all things. I think the female psyche is very different than the male psyche and I think they are complimentary.

Never mind, Mark.  Stargazer got it.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Robert F. Smith