MormonLeaks: Elder Perry on Homosexuality

[california boy]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Nothing like the sight of oiled sweaty muscled men with the bodies of Greek gods glistening in the sun to turn a guy straight.

Can I put in my request for the Muscle Mormon Squad to come  over and save me?

Seriously, this gives great insight into why church authorities are coming up with the policies and direction on gay couples that have been coming out of SLC.  

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Can I put in my request for the Muscle Mormon Squad to come  over and save me?

I am working out tonight. Maybe tomorrow?  

[california boy]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

As Hope pointed out, the problem is that there is no discussion of what behavior they were engaged in.  In sacrament meeting, I hold my wife's hand.  I put my arm around her shoulders.  At the end of the meeting when she heads off to teach primary, I give her a quick kiss.  Is Elder Perry advising bishops to take a gay couple into his office for having done any of these things?

My guess is yes.  Gay couples seem to freak church leaders out and cause them to make incredible policies directed against them.  Would anyone really be surprised if a church policy did not come out that would bar any gay couple from ever attending a church meeting if ever caught holding hands?  Even if has never been an issue before?

[california boy]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am working out tonight. Maybe tomorrow?  

Are you on Grinder?  We should talk.  I definitely need saving.  

This might be the absolutely best therapy the church has come up with yet.  Much better than telling us to marry women.  

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

Are you on Grinder?  We should talk.  I definitely need saving.  

This might be the absolutely best therapy the church has come up with yet.  Much better than telling us to marry women.  

I had a response typed out but it would probably have gotten me banned from the thread. Sorry.

[california boy]

Just now, The Nehor said:

I had a response typed out but it would probably have gotten me banned from the thread. Sorry.

LOL yeah I bet you did.  And I bet you would have gotten banned.  

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, california boy said:

LOL yeah I bet you did.  And I bet you would have gotten banned.  

I usually won at gay chicken back in High School and college. I think you could match me and probably beat me.  

Edited August 8, 2017 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

I noticed that on the question: "How do you help a young man or young woman who comes in and says "I think that I am gay"? 

Elder Perry skipped over anything to do with a woman being gay and concentrated on the men by mentioning to give them association with manly things. 

I hate how he appears to have an issue, I'm assuming, with a woman being gay, and his lack of understanding that even football players are gay. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I noticed that on the question: "How do you help a young man or young woman who comes in and says "I think that I am gay"? 

Elder Perry skipped over anything to do with a woman being gay and concentrated on the men by mentioning to give them association with manly things. 

I hate how he appears to have an issue, I'm assuming, with a woman being gay, and his lack of understanding that even football players are gay. 

I had to smile as backward as the whole spill is...the same answer would apply in a weird sort of way....

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

I had to smile as backward as the whole spill is...the same answer would apply in a weird sort of way....

Oh my gosh you're right Jeanne!!

[ksfisher]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I noticed that on the question: "How do you help a young man or young woman who comes in and says "I think that I am gay"? 

Elder Perry skipped over anything to do with a woman being gay and concentrated on the men by mentioning to give them association with manly things. 

I hate how he appears to have an issue, I'm assuming, with a woman being gay, and his lack of understanding that even football players are gay. 

Elder Perry is answering the question extemporaneously.  I'm sure if he had time to prepare an answer that there would be more to it and it would address all aspect of the question. 

 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

The latest MormonLeak is a document containing minutes from a 2014 priesthood leadership conference in Layton, UT.

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2017/08/08/mormonleaks-releases-priesthood-leadership-conference-meeting-minutes/

There is a Q&A session in which Elder Perry provides some answers that seem contradictory to the current Church position:  When asked how to deal with a young man or young woman who comes in and says "I think that I'm gay", Elder Perry counsels them to "Give them association with manly things, strong men that represent the ideal of relationships, a man who is vigorous and knows the power he holds." (quoting the document, not Elder Perry)

In a later question about temple recommends he states that he does not believe that gay people are "born with it".  I know that the Church does not take a position on that, I just thought his statement of belief was interesting.

I think Elder Perry and Elder Clarke are saying the same things. A gay priesthood holder is first and foremost a priesthood holder, and needs to identify as such and see being manly beyond the tunnel vision of sexualness.

[USU78]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm a Harry Potter fan, but not sure what Weasely attack you're referring to or how it applies, can you enlighten me?  

"Paranoia" as employed is both weasely and and an attack word.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is not fear. It is an understanding of cause and effect. Otherwise every prophet warning of calamities if people do not repent is operating off the principle of fear.

Its still fear whether you think its accurate or not.  You could make a case that under certain circumstances fear based motivation is justified, but I would say those circumstances are very narrow and must be justified ethically, and should be used sparingly.  Unfortunately, fear based motivation is often the soup du jour of religious motivational tactics, and that is what Uchtdorf was critiquing.  

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its still fear whether you think its accurate or not.  You could make a case that under certain circumstances fear based motivation is justified, but I would say those circumstances are very narrow and must be justified ethically, and should be used sparingly.  Unfortunately, fear based motivation is often the soup du jour of religious motivational tactics, and that is what Uchtdorf was critiquing.  

Doctrine & Covenants 88:81 has long been a doctrine of the church:

" Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor."

[The Nehor]

34 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its still fear whether you think its accurate or not.  You could make a case that under certain circumstances fear based motivation is justified, but I would say those circumstances are very narrow and must be justified ethically, and should be used sparingly.  Unfortunately, fear based motivation is often the soup du jour of religious motivational tactics, and that is what Uchtdorf was critiquing.  

It is still not fear whether you think it is accurate or not.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Elder Perry is answering the question extemporaneously.  I'm sure if he had time to prepare an answer that there would be more to it and it would address all aspect of the question. 

 

Or perhaps if there had been some clear revelation on the matter even an extemporaneous answer would have been better.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think Elder Perry and Elder Clarke are saying the same things. A gay priesthood holder is first and foremost a priesthood holder, and needs to identify as such and see being manly beyond the tunnel vision of sexualness.

So the thought is that gay people only see "being manly" through the "tunnel vision of sexualness"?  I'm not even sure how to interpret that.  Maybe California Boy can help clarify what you mean. 

[hope_for_things]

45 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Doctrine & Covenants 88:81 has long been a doctrine of the church:

" Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor."

Like with all scriptures, there are tensions between different topics discussed.  Its up to each of us to determine what we think is moral and how to apply these principles in our life.  I loved Uchtdorf's talk, and I think its one of the most inspired messages I've heard in years.  Truly prophetic from my perspective.  If warning my neighbor means telling them that God loves them and that they are of great value in this world and that I'd like to be their friend, then I think I've warned my neighbor.  

[hope_for_things]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is still not fear whether you think it is accurate or not.

Its fear, you just want to justify the fear tactic.  I recommend re-reading Uchtdorf talk, its ground breaking and a highly important critique.  

Quote

Often, people may condemn bullying in others, yet they cannot see it in themselves. They demand compliance with their own arbitrary rules, but when others don’t follow these random rules, they chasten them verbally, emotionally, and sometimes even physically.

The Lord has said that “when we … exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, … the heavens withdraw themselves [and] the Spirit of the Lord is grieved.”2

There may be moments when we are tempted to justify our actions by believing that the end justifies the means. We might even think that to be controlling, manipulative, and harsh will be for the good of others. Not so, for the Lord has made it clear that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, [and] temperance.”3

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/perfect-love-casteth-out-fear?lang=eng

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, hope_for_things said:

  If warning my neighbor means telling them that God loves them and that they are of great value in this world and that I'd like to be their friend, then I think I've warned my neighbor.  

In your example what did you warn your neighbor about?  Your message of love is wonderful and important, everyone should be reminded of that.  But if your neighbors spiritual house is on fire perhaps a little more is called for that just telling them you want to be their friend.

[The Nehor]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

Its fear, you just want to justify the fear tactic.  I recommend re-reading Uchtdorf talk, its ground breaking and a highly important critique.  

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/perfect-love-casteth-out-fear?lang=eng

I do not consider God's commandments to be "arbitrary rules". Sorry.

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

Yes, I agree that this is a common view for those who came of age 40 to 50 years ago.  But, Elder Perry isn't there representing his generation.  He is there as an apostle so his words will take on greater meaning to many in his audience.

Can't have it both ways. If we want GAs to be open to answer questions they're going to answer them in terms of their knowledge and experience. If we don't want GAs answering in terms of their understanding then we're saying we should only have statements that go through correlation.

[hope_for_things]

Just now, ksfisher said:

In your example what did you warn your neighbor about?  Your message of love is wonderful and important, everyone should be reminded of that.  But if your neighbors spiritual house is on fire perhaps a little more is called for that just telling them you want to be their friend.

Who defines whether their spiritual house is on fire.  I don't think that is the center of the gospel message as I understand it from the NT Jesus.  Those authors have Jesus telling us to serve our neighbor, to love them and help them, not to correct them.  That Jesus tells us to focus on the beam in our own eye, not their house, but our own.  The primary thing I'm focused on is doing good for others, that is the message of warning, its a warning that's given through example of charity and love and friendship and service.  Thats it, no preaching, no "I have the truth and you don't" none of those negatives heresies that have developed in the Christian tradition.  Out with the bad and in with the good, the gospel is a message of love, not judgment.  

[The Nehor]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

Who defines whether their spiritual house is on fire.  I don't think that is the center of the gospel message as I understand it from the NT Jesus.  Those authors have Jesus telling us to serve our neighbor, to love them and help them, not to correct them.  That Jesus tells us to focus on the beam in our own eye, not their house, but our own.  The primary thing I'm focused on is doing good for others, that is the message of warning, its a warning that's given through example of charity and love and friendship and service.  Thats it, no preaching, no "I have the truth and you don't" none of those negatives heresies that have developed in the Christian tradition.  Out with the bad and in with the good, the gospel is a message of love, not judgment.  

The call was to repent. You cannot repent unless you acknowledge you are wrong. Jesus also spent quite a bit of time telling people how screwed up they were.