Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Exalting Gays (Thought Experiment)

Coreyb

By Coreyb
in General Discussions

Recommended Posts

VideoGameJunkie Grand Master

VideoGameJunkie

Posted
Posted (edited)

I say as a church we should show more love and compassion towards gays. We are told to love everyone. I know Mormon gays can become suicidal and actually commit suicide because they grow up in the church and feel they're a screw up and an abomination to the church and their life feels ruined and hopeless, so I hope we can extend love and a friendly arm to the gays of the world.

Edited by VideoGameJunkie
mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted

Maybe that's the answer, omnigamy.

Oh I always have liked that, making those little birds and things out of folded paper.  Maybe if people are doing that they won't have to worry about being single.  ;)

2
mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted

I say as a church we should show more love and compassion towards gays. We are told to love everyone. I know Mormon gays can become suicidal and actually commit suicide because they grow up in the church and feel they're a screw up and an abomination to the church and their life feels ruined and hopeless, so I hope we can extend love and a friendly arm to the gays of the world.

You may not believe it, but I agree whole-heartedly.  It has to be very difficult.

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Im not doing any of those things so I am nt sure what your beef is. If you think me calling homosexual acts as being an abomination "emotional harm", well then, join the world.

 

That's good because in my world doing those things will get you into a 3 meter square box. The Bible calls many things an abomination. Playing football (touching the skin of a pig) is one of them.

 

SEE above post.

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

What is it about atheists that just screws our society up? Oh yeah- they dont believe the bible...

 

What is about theists that just screws our society up? Oh-yeah they believe that the Bible tells them how to act towards others.

pogi Grand Master

pogi

Posted
Posted

What is it about atheists that just screws our society up? Oh yeah- they dont believe the bible...

 

 If all of the atheists believed in the bible, the only difference would be that we no longer have ignorant sinners in society. 

1
Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

Rob, I am interested in your to response to the CFR. Can you please answer what rights Gays have that you don't have?

They have gay pride and no pne has the right to say otherwise. But when we push our agenda(hetetosexual morality) its a hate crime!

Daniel2 Grand Master

Daniel2

Posted
Posted (edited)

They have gay pride and no pne has the right to say otherwise. But when we push our agenda(hetetosexual morality) its a hate crime!

Gay pride is an example of the right to peaceably assemble.

Are you suggesting that straight people don't have the right to peaceably assemble?

Christian congregations assemble each Sunday to preach against homosexual activities and behavior. No one stops them, that is not a hate crime, and gays don't have a right to stop them from doing so.

The LDS church has a bi-annual General Conference that pushes their heterosexual agenda, as well as numerous firesides and broadcasts to do so. That is not a hate crime, and gays don't have a right to stop them from doing so.

For non-Christian heterosexuals, Mardi Gras is akin to a gay pride parade, and similarly exercises the right to peaceably assemble to promote heterosexual pride--and no one can say otherwise, and it is not a hate crime, and gays don't have a right to stop them from doing so.

NOM (the National Organization for Marriage) and the FRC (Family Research Counsel) have organized several "Marches for Marriage" events in Washington DC and Bus Tours across the country (albeit with paltry and diminishing attendance) all with the goal of pushing their heterosexual agenda--none of which were stopped under the guise of hate crimes, and gays don't have a right to stop them from doing so.

Hate crime laws forbidding violent crimes motivated by animous based on sexual orientation are designe to protect both straights and gays alike (gays can be prosecuted for committing hate crimes against straights, just as straigh can be prosecuted as committing hate crimes against gays), just as hate crimes forbidding violent crimes based on race, religion, and gender are designed to protect people of all races, religions, and genders.

I assert that gays don't have any exclusive "right" to "gay pride" that heterosexuals don't equally have to advance their own straight causes.

The CFR for any examples of gays having more rights than you has yet to be proven, and still stands.

In approximately 15 states, same sex-couples are still denied the equal ability to civilly marry, unlike their opposite-sex counterparts.

Your attempt to paint yourself as the oppressed minority here is inexcusable.

Edited by Daniel2
Daniel2 Grand Master

Daniel2

Posted
Posted (edited)
Do you live in Sweden, or America?

Are you aware that America's laws are different than Sweden's?

Are you aware that America has a Constitution which Sweden does not have?

Finally, I note the source of your link as a Christian news agency, but don't see a date. I'd be curious to see any mainstream news agencies' reports on the incident.

Edited by Daniel2
Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

Do you live in Sweden, or America?

Are you aware that America's laws are different than Sweden's?

Are you aware that America has a Constitution which Sweden does not have?

Hey, we Christians stand together.

Daniel2 Grand Master

Daniel2

Posted
Posted

Hey, we Christians stand together.

That's great.... but if you live in the USA, you are governed by different rights and laws than your Swedish cousins--and in America, gays have no more rights than you do, so the CFR has still been unanswered.

Daniel2 Grand Master

Daniel2

Posted
Posted (edited)

By the way, I did some further research, and you'll be relieved to know that your Pastor brother was acquitted at both the appellate level and by Sweden's Supreme Court approximately ten years ago, and he never served any portion of the original sentance:

Åke Green (Swedish: [ˈoːkə ɡreːn]), born 3 June 1941, is a Swedish Pentecostal Christian pastor who was prosecuted, but acquitted, under Sweden's law against hate speech because of critical opinions on homosexuality in his sermons. The district court found him guilty and sentenced him to one month in prison.

The sentence was appealed to the court of appeals (hovrätt). On 11 February 2005 Göta hovrätt overturned the decision and acquitted Åke Green. On 9 March, the Prosecutor-General (Riksåklagaren) appealed this decision to the Supreme Court, which on 29 November also acquitted.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85ke_Green

Additionally, gays and lesbians spoke out in support of the minister during the process:

Pastor Challenges Hate-Law Restrictions

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45538-2005Jan28.html

By Keith B. Richburg and Alan Cooperman

Washington Post Foreign Service

Saturday, January 29, 2005; Page A01

STOCKHOLM -- One Sunday in the summer of 2003, the Rev. Ake Green, a Pentecostal pastor, stepped into the pulpit of his small church in the southern Swedish village of Borgholm. There, the 63-year-old clergyman delivered a sermon denouncing homosexuality as "a deep cancerous tumor in the entire society" and condemning Sweden's plan to allow gays to form legally recognized partnerships.

"Our country is facing a disaster of great proportions," he told the 75 parishioners at the service. "Sexually twisted people will rape animals," Green declared, and homosexuals "open the door to forbidden areas," such as pedophilia.

With these words, which the local newspaper published at his request, Green ran afoul of Sweden's strict laws against hate speech. He was indicted, convicted and sentenced to 30 days in jail. He remains free pending appeal.

U.S. law regulates what can be said about individuals, but it generally protects speech directed against groups, however harsh, allowing Ku Klux Klan leaders and neo-Nazis, for example, to state their ideologies publicly. But in Europe, laws banning such speech and similarly controversial symbols are common.

Nonetheless, Green's case has triggered debate about the breadth of the Swedish law. Though many people here, including politicians and gay rights organizations, denounce him as intolerant, homophobic and a crackpot, others have sprung to his defense. These include members of the Christian Democratic Party, who contend his prosecution shows that free speech and religious freedom are under assault by a government too eager to protect minority rights.

Green has also found a following in the United States. The Rev. Rob Schenck, president of the District-based National Clergy Council, a network of 5,000 conservative Christian leaders, said the case had become "a cause celebre" among the Christian right because "there is a fear we are heading in a similar direction in this country."

"What has been a traditional moral expression of the church has now been criminalized in a very modern, sophisticated, Western state, and that is extremely alarming," Schenck said in an interview. "We believe strongly that homosexuality is sin, that it is an offense to God and that it is injurious to the individuals involved and to the society surrounding them. Why can't we believe and say that, if they are free to believe and say the opposite?"

Kevin Cathcart, executive director of the gay rights group Lambda Legal, said that religious conservatives in the United States were "trying to twist" the Green case to their advantage, but that it was "not relevant to any actual debate about gay civil rights or the role of religion in the United States."

U.S. gay rights groups "are not interested in forcing any churches to do anything they don't want to do theologically," Cathcart said. Evangelical Christians who think Green's case is what the future holds for them "may be right," he said, "but only if they move to Sweden."

Green, who is tall and lean with thinning white hair and a preacher's reserve, says he sees himself as a crusader for free speech, although he said that was never his intention.

If his sentence is upheld on appeal, "it will diminish freedom of speech in Sweden, and that will mean we can't teach everything the Bible says," Green said in an interview at his attorney's office in Stockholm. "They'll go further and say we can't preach about other things, either."

On Wednesday last week, about 200 people gathered outside the courthouse in the southern city of Jonkoping to voice support for Green during his first appeal. Many who showed up were homosexuals who said while they disagreed vehemently with what the pastor said, they defended his right to say it.

In Sweden, Green's case has focused particular attention on the government's decision in 2002 to expand the country's longstanding law against hate speech to cover gays and lesbians.

Critics of the prosecution say that while the pastor's words might be hateful and extremist, the law was never intended to cover what a preacher said from the pulpit.

"My view is that one could argue about some words in his preaching, but he should not be put in jail for it," said Mikael Oscarsson, a Christian Democratic member of parliament who met with religious groups in Washington last fall to publicize the case. "As a nation we have signed declarations saying one should have the right to speak and to express oneself," he said. "This law goes against that right."

Your solitary 10-year-old example, long since settled in favor of free speech for all in Sweden, doesn't prove what you hoped it would--in fact, Sweden's appellate and Supreme Courts prove my point.

As I said, it's inexcusable that you would continue to claim victimization while gay and lesbian families are the ones still being denied the equal protections of marriage, employment and housing discrimination, etc. that straight Christians and Latter-day Saints already enjoy.

Reminds me of this image:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fc2.staticflickr.com%2F8%2F7026%2F6648973809_4c35d7ac79.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fmysticpolitics%2F6648973809%2F&h=386&w=500&tbnid=Ddcw9YFNf3rCFM%3A&zoom=1&docid=ttIngcHxI8ByYM&ei=jjamVO2xNomXyATWxIGgAw&tbm=isch&client=ms-android-att-us&ved=0CB0QMygAMAA&iact=rc&uact=3&page=1&start=0&ndsp=8

Now... what rights do gays have that you don't have...?

.

Edited by Daniel2
california boy Grand Master

california boy

Posted
Posted

Hey, we Christians stand together.

 

 

Hey we Christians also have no problem distorting truth so that we can appear to be persecuted.  What else is new.  When we can't honestly answer the CFR, we resort to other means.  

 

Examples like this continue to give Christians a bad reputation of being deceivers in the name of God.  

Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted

Gays have nore rights than I do. They push their agenda on us and society thinks we should tolerate them to the point of acceptance and even so far as to call me a bigot and intolerable just because I preach homosexuality is an abomination and sinful in every aspect.

We push our agenda, they push their agenda.  So what?  That's the U.S. Constitution in action, just as it should be.  It's called free speech.

 

What do you mean by "acceptance"?  The LDS Church has officially taken a position that SLC law should make it possible for gays to have the same housing and employment rights that others have.  Is that acceptance?. Merely making sure that gays have the same rights others have means that they have more rights?  How does that compute, Rob?

 

We need to be good neighbors to non-Mormons, even if they are atheists or gays.  We need to ask What would Jesus do?

1
Daniel2 Grand Master

Daniel2

Posted
Posted (edited)

Jesus would certainly condemn homosexuality. Thats a no brainer.

Given your continued posting without answering the CFR, it appears you're unable to support your claim.

Gays do NOT have more rights than you do--in fact, we have less (although as a nation, we're moving to close the gap).

You are free to believe what you will about Jesus and his view of homosexuality.

Biblical texts of Jesus' teachings never mention homosexuality, and there are many Christians that don't share your view that he would have condemned it. For example:

 

Biblical evidence

Can two people of the same sex live in committed, loving relationship with the blessing of God?

As we grapple with this question, we will look at two sets of Scriptures: those that affirm gay and lesbian people, and those that are traditionally used to condemn gay people.

Affirmation in Scripture

On this web site we discuss five passages of Scripture that affirm gay people and their relationships.

These stories, which the writers of the Bible included under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, are amazingly gay-positive. Odds are, you have never heard about these passages and their meaning for sexual minorities. The truth of these texts threatens some of our society’s deepest prejudices, and their positive messages are usually ignored. It is our hope they will bring comfort and refreshment to many.

Are there really only six?

Given how often some Christians preach against homosexuality, you would think there must be hundreds of Scriptures on the subject. In fact, there are only six traditional (negative) passages, and none of them speaks to the situation of twenty-first century gay people who desire to live in loving relationships with the blessing of God. On this web site, we carefully walk through each of these passages and document what they do and don't say.

Prejudice can influence how we read the Bible -- An example from the recent past.

In The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, young Huck’s father is thought to be dead, and a woman named Widow Douglas takes him in. Widow Douglas is portrayed as a kindly Christian who takes care of Huck out of goodness, with no thought of reimbursement. The Widow Douglas tries to “civilize” Huck, teaching him Bible stories and urging him to live a good life and pray often. She is a loving woman who studies her Bible and wants to always do the right thing. She is also a slave owner.

Later in the story, Huck runs away and happens upon Jim, a slave belonging to Widow Douglas’s sister, Miss Watson. The sister had intended to sell Jim to a trader in New Orleans. So, fearing he would never see his wife and children again, Jim runs away. He plans to escape to freedom, make some money, and buy his wife and children out of slavery. Huck and Jim’s adventures as they travel together down the Mississippi make up the rest of the book.

At every turn, Huck finds himself feeling guilty for “stealing” Miss Watson’s “property.” He believes he will go to hell for helping Jim escape, and it is clear his Christian education under Widow Douglas is part of the reason he believes this. For all her kindness and goodness, Widow Douglas reads the Bible the same way most of her friends do. She believes slavery is an institution approved by God. She probably believes all African Americans are descended from Ham and the curse recorded in Genesis 9:25-27 demonstrates why they deserve slavery. She sees nothing wrong with buying and selling people because her interpretation of the Bible tells her this is the proper role of those of European descent. In short, she allows her prejudices to mold the way she reads the Bible.

This may seem like an extreme example. Only the most bigoted Christian would argue today that the Bible endorses slavery or that Genesis 9:25-27 is a curse against Africans. But Huck’s story illustrates how thoroughly we are creatures of our culture and how that culture can create prejudices that get in the way of what God wants to teach us.

The information on this site will challenge some of the deepest prejudices of our culture, prejudices that even gay people have often internalized. We will look at Scriptures that dispute some of our most deeply held beliefs, and we must be willing to let God move. In the end, our response will decide if our prejudices mold the Bible, or if we are willing to let the Bible mold us.

The good news at the end of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is that Miss Watson, who always felt guilty for almost selling Jim, freed him in her will. Perhaps she was able to read the Bible with a fresh perspective. Perhaps she listened to the tugging of God’s Spirit on her soul. Whatever the cause, she and Jim were both finally free.

As you read the pages of this web site, try to set aside any prejudices you may have about the subject. Listen to the Spirit of God speaking through these Scriptures. And perhaps you, like Miss Watson and Jim, will be freed.

Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Matthew 8:5-13

The Greek word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner. Get more information.

Ruth loved Naomi as Adam loved Eve. Genesis 2:24, Ruth 1:14

The same Hebrew word that is used in Genesis 2:24 to describe how Adam felt about Eve (and how spouses are suppose to feel toward each other) is used in Ruth 1:14 to describe how Ruth felt about Naomi. Her feelings are celebrated, not condemned. And throughout Christian history, Ruth's vow to Naomi has been used to illustrate the nature of the marriage covenant. These words are often read at Christian wedding ceremonies and used in sermons to illustrate the ideal love that spouses should have for one another. The fact that these words were originally spoken by one woman to another tells us a lot about how God feels about same-gender relationships. Get more information.

Jesus said some are born gay. Matthew 19:10-12

Here Jesus refers to "eunuchs who have been so from birth." This terminology ("born eunuchs") was used in the ancient world to refer to homosexual men. Jesus indicates that being a "born eunuch" is a gift from God. Get more information.

The early church welcomed a gay man. Acts 8:26-40

In the ancient world, eunuchs were widely associated with homosexuality. Here a self-avowed eunuch is welcomed in to the early church without any concerns about his sexual orientation. He was welcomed on the same basis as other people -- his faith in Jesus Christ. Get more information.

David loved Jonathan more than women. II Samuel 1:26

At Jonathan’s funeral, David declares that he loved Jonathan more than any woman. This is just one of several Bible passages that describe and celebrate an intense love between these two men that went well beyond friendship. Get more information.

Idol Worship and Rejection of God. Romans 1:21-28

In these verses, Paul condemns idol worshippers and God haters. According to Paul, these “God haters” experiment with gay sex only as a way of seeking new thrills or in cultic worship. Clearly, he is not speaking about innately gay and lesbian people, who love God and want to honor God while living with integrity as who they are. Get more information.

Israel's Holiness Code. Leviticus 18 and 20

The chapters that contain these verses are clearly identified as speaking against practices involved in cultic idol worship. The entire passages are generally accepted as not applying to modern Christian life. Get more information.

Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 19 & Jude 7

The Genesis 19 account of Sodom and Gomorrah is a story of attempted gang rape of two "outsiders." It says nothing about loving gay relationships, and actually condemns the sort of violence sometimes done to gays and lesbians. Jude 7 talks about a first century Jewish legend that the women of Sodom had sex with male angels. Since it is about heterosexual sex between angels and humans, it clearly has nothing to do with gay relationships. Get more information.

No Fems? No Fairies? I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1:10

The words often translated "effeminate" and “homosexual” in these passages are obscure and difficult to translate. The first word identifies someone who is morally weak, and has nothing to do with nellie gay men. The second word probably means “people who use power to obtain sex,” though the word is so rare that a confident translation is impossible. Neither word refers specifically to gay men or lesbians. Get more information.

http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence.html

And another:

 

The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality

 (The text below an excerpt from UNFAIR: Christians and the LGBT Question)

God does not ask us to choose between compassion and faith in the Bible.

 

Christians are increasingly divided over the issue of the acceptance and inclusion of gay persons into the church. The debate itself is usually framed as essentially pitting the Bible, on one hand, against compassion and social justice on the other. Our Christian hearts, runs the (usually impassioned) argument, compel us to grant full moral and legal equality to gay and lesbian people; our Christian faith, comes the (usually impassioned) rebuttal, compels us to cleave, above all, to the word of God.

Compassion for others is the fundamental cornerstone of Christian ethics; the Bible is the bedrock of the Christian faith. What Christian can possibly choose between the two?

The answer is that no Christian is called upon to make that choice. The text of the Bible on one hand, and full equality for gay and lesbian people on the other, is a false dichotomy. God would not ask or expect Christians to ever choose between their compassion and their faith.

Reconciling the Bible with unqualified acceptance and equality for LGBT people does not necessitate discounting, recasting, or deconstructing the Bible. All it takes is reading those passages of the Bible wherein homosexuality is mentioned with the same care that we would any other passage of the book.

We can trust God; we can trust that God is loving.

And we can trust that we can—and that we certainly should—take God, in this matter, as in all things, at his word.

If there is no clearly stated directive in the Bible to marginalize and ostracize gay people, then it is morally indefensible for Christians to continue to do so.

 

What cannot be denied is that Christians have caused a great deal of pain and suffering to gay persons, by:

  • Banning their participation in the church, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of the church.
  • Banning their participation in the sacrament of marriage, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of marriage.
  • Damaging the bonds between gays and their straight family members, thus weakening the comforts and spiritual fruits of family life for both gays and their families.
  • Using their position within society as spokespersons for God to proclaim that all homosexual relations are disdained by God, thus knowingly contributing to the cruel persecution of a minority population.

Christians do not deny that they have done these things. However, they contend that they have no choice but to do these things, based on what they say is a clear directive about homosexuals delivered to them by God through the Holy Bible.

 

They assert that the Bible defines all homosexual acts as sinful, instructs them to exclude from full participation in the church all non-repentant sinners (including gay people), and morally calls upon them to publicly (or at least resolutely) denounce homosexual acts.

Without an explicit directive from God to exclude and condemn homosexuals, the Christian community’s treatment of gay persons is in clear violation of what Jesus and the New Testament writers pointedly identified as one-half of God’s most important commandment: to love one’s neighbor as one’s self.

The gay community has cried out for justice from Christians, who have a biblically mandated obligation to be just. Because the suffering imposed on gay persons by Christians is so severe, the directive from God to marginalize and ostracize gay people would have to be clear and explicit in the Bible. If there is no such clearly stated directive, then the continued Christian mistreatment of gay and lesbian people is morally indefensible, and must cease.

Heterosexual Christians are being unbiblical by using the clobber passages as justification for applying absolute standards of morality to homosexual “sins” that they themselves are not tempted to commit, while at the same time accepting for themselves a standard of relative morality for those sins listed in the clobber passages that they do routinely commit.

http://notalllikethat.org/taking-god-at-his-word-the-bible-and-homosexuality/

(My note: This link is very lengthy, and is worth the entire read. I didn't post the entire excerpt, but recommend clicking on the link and reading it in its entirety)

 

There are many other sources showing how a growing number of Christians and churches are grappling with how God and Christ would approach the relationships of loving, committed, consensual same-sex couples, and coming to the conclusion that God would be inclusive of such, rather than rejecting them.

 

Regarding this subject, I think the following teachings by Joseph Smith are worth considering:

 

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.

 

God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. 

 

Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation. 

 

This principle will justly apply to all of God's dealings with His children. Everything that God gives us is lawful and right; and it is proper that we should enjoy His gifts and blessings whenever and wherever He is disposed to bestow;

 

Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive.

 

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/smith_letter.htm

Edited by Daniel2
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...