Exalting Gays (Thought Experiment)

[thesometimesaint]

There has been homosexuality since the beginning.

[Rob Osborn]

You claim to be a theist but claim you don't do what the Bible tells you to do. So, you are theist then?

I am a theist, and you can tell by my words, my links, my philosophy, etc. (by their works you shall know them). You spend more time bashing the bible and quoting prominent atheists. What am I to believe?

[Rob Osborn]

Given your continued posting without answering the CFR, it appears you're unable to support your claim.

Gays do NOT have more rights than you do--in fact, we have less (although as a nation, we're moving to close the gap).

You are free to believe what you will about Jesus and his view of homosexuality.

Biblical texts of Jesus' teachings never mention homosexuality, and there are many Christians that don't share your view that he would have condemned it. For example:

 

And another:

 

There are many other sources showing how a growing number of Christians and churches are grappling with how God and Christ would approach the relationships of loving, committed, consensual same-sex couples, and coming to the conclusion that God would be inclusive of such, rather than rejecting them.

 

Regarding this subject, I think the following teachings by Joseph Smith are worth considering:

 

 

Believe what you want but there is no homosexuality in heaven because it as a lifestyle is an abomination before the Lord.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Rob Osborn

[Daniel2]

Believe what you want but there is no homosexuality in heaven because it as a lifestyle is an abomination before the Lord.

Believe what you want, but I'm 100% right and you're totally wrong, so there!

Guess you totally settled that once and for all with intelligent discussion and without sidestepping any facts that were presented to you that contradicted what you were saying.

When presented with uncomfortable facts, don't refute them--just testify! (Cuz nobody can argue with a testimony...)

Edited January 2, 2015 by Daniel2

[Rob Osborn]

Believe what you want, but I'm 100% right and you're totally wrong, so there!

Guess you totally settled that once and for all with intelligent discussion and without sidestepping any facts that were presented to you that contradicted what you were saying.

When presented with uncomfortable facts, don't refute them--just testify! (Cuz nobody can argue with a testimony...)

 

 

No amount of justification will ever make homosexuality a holy practice.  Why dont you follow the prophets?

[Daniel2]

No amount of justification will ever make homosexuality a holy practice. Why dont you follow the prophets?

A lot of people say the same thing about one prophet having over 700 wives and conqubines--or even just 30 or so, including young teenagers.

Why don't you follow those prophets?

[Rob Osborn]

A lot of people say the same thing about one prophet having over 700 wives and conqubines--or even just 30 or so, including young teenagers.

Why don't you follow those prophets?

I do, I live the law of chastity.

[Daniel2]

I do, I live the law of chastity.

Does living your law of chastity include taking plural wives?

[Rob Osborn]

Does living your law of chastity include taking plural wives?

Were not allowed at present to take plural wives. Plural wives is different than homosexuality. Homosexuality is an abomination.

[JLHPROF]

There has been homosexuality since the beginning.

 

There's been murder too.  And idolatry.  And all manner of sins.

[JLHPROF]

Does living your law of chastity include taking plural wives?

 

Yes it does.  The law of chastity makes no rule against plural marriage, at least during the time it is authorized.

[thesometimesaint]

I am a theist, and you can tell by my words, my links, my philosophy, etc. (by their works you shall know them). You spend more time bashing the bible and quoting prominent atheists. What am I to believe?

 

 

Yet by your own admission you don't do the works required of you in the Bible. IE; Exodus 22:18. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

 

I personally like the Bible, and believe it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. I, just like the Church, recognize it as a fallible work of man. If your arguments can't stand up to scrutiny even by silly atheists. What on God's green earth do you expect to happen when a committed theist like me takes you to task?

 

Believe anything you want. Just keep in mind that what you believe may or may not have any relevance to fact. Theistic believers for thousands of years believed in a geocentric universe. Giodano Bruno should be a cautionary tale.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

 

There are still today about 25% of adult Americans who believe in a geocentric universe  The simple fact is that the earth revolves around our sun, and our solar system isn't the whole universe.

[Rob Osborn]

Yet by your own admission you don't do the works required of you in the Bible. IE; Exodus 22:18. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

 

I personally like the Bible, and believe it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. I, just like the Church, recognize it as a fallible work of man. If your arguments can't stand up to scrutiny even by silly atheists. What on God's green earth do you expect to happen when a committed theist like me takes you to task?

 

Believe anything you want. Just keep in mind that what you believe may or may not have any relevance to fact. Theistic believers for thousands of years believed in a geocentric universe. Giodano Bruno should be a cautionary tale.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

 

There are still today about 25% of adult Americans who believe in a geocentric universe  The simple fact is that the earth revolves around our sun, and our solar system isn't the whole universe.

So, you claim to be a theist but do so only in light of bashing the bible and mocking theism. Gotcha.

[thesometimesaint]

So, you claim to be a theist but do so only in light of bashing the bible and mocking theism. Gotcha.

 

I don't bash the Bible. I merely quote from it, and our Scriptures to counter your inerrant presuppositions.  It is you that is bashing Church doctrine. Gotcha.

[Rob Osborn]

I don't bash the Bible. I merely quote from it, and our Scriptures to counter your inerrant presuppositions.  It is you that is bashing Church doctrine. Gotcha.

You take certain quoted texts, usually from the Old Testament, make a mockery of them, and then flock to your atheist colleagues and make mockery of true believers.

[thesometimesaint]

You take certain quoted texts, usually from the Old Testament, make a mockery of them, and then flock to your atheist colleagues and make mockery of true believers.

 

The New Testament while somewhat better still has plenty of questionable attributions to God. BTW Our Scripture includes to Old Testament

 It was your theistic colleagues that have used the Bible as justification for evil for thousands of years. Not that atheists are immune to such either.

[Rob Osborn]

The New Testament while somewhat better still has plenty of questionable attributions to God. BTW Our Scripture includes to Old Testament

 It was your theistic colleagues that have used the Bible as justification for evil for thousands of years. Not that atheists are immune to such either.

There you go again. By their fruit ye shall know them.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Rob Osborn

[Robert F. Smith]

Jesus would certainly condemn homosexuality. Thats a no brainer.

Perhaps so, but He would also certainly be kind and compassionate toward them, just as He was to prostitutes, tax collectors, drunks, and other riff-raff.  When condemned for that by religious leaders, he replied that the physician is sent to the sick.

 

Mother Teresa also did not minister to the healthy and well-fed in India.  Indeed, President Monson, Elder Oaks, and Sister Karen Broberg Campbell have each publicly recognized her Christlike work -- https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/charity-never-faileth?lang=eng&query=mother+teresa , here from Pres. Monson:

 

Mother Teresa, a Catholic nun who worked among the poor in India most of her life, spoke this profound truth: “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.”  The Savior has admonished, “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”  I ask: can we love one another, as the Savior has commanded, if we judge each other? And I answer—with Mother Teresa: no, we cannot.

*    *    *    *

 

I consider charity—or “the pure love of Christ”—to be the opposite of criticism and judging. In speaking of charity, I do not at this moment have in mind the relief of the suffering through the giving of our substance. That, of course, is necessary and proper. Tonight, however, I have in mind the charity that manifests itself when we are tolerant of others and lenient toward their actions, the kind of charity that forgives, the kind of charity that is patient.

 

I have in mind the charity that impels us to be sympathetic, compassionate, and merciful, not only in times of sickness and affliction and distress but also in times of weakness or error on the part of others.

 

There is a serious need for the charity that gives attention to those who are unnoticed, hope to those who are discouraged, aid to those who are afflicted. True charity is love in action. The need for charity is everywhere.

 

Needed is the charity which refuses to find satisfaction in hearing or in repeating the reports of misfortunes that come to others, unless by so doing, the unfortunate one may be benefited. The American educator and politician Horace Mann once said, “To pity distress is but human; to relieve it is godlike.”

 

Charity is having patience with someone who has let us down. It is resisting the impulse to become offended easily. It is accepting weaknesses and shortcomings. It is accepting people as they truly are. It is looking beyond physical appearances to attributes that will not dim through time. It is resisting the impulse to categorize others.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Rob Osborn]

Perhaps so, but He would also certainly be kind and compassionate toward them, just as He was to prostitutes, tax collectors, drunks, and other riff-raff.  When condemned for that by religious leaders, he replied that the physician is sent to the sick.

 

Mother Teresa also did not minister to the healthy and well-fed in India.  Indeed, President Monson, Elder Oaks, and Sister Karen Broberg Campbell have each publicly recognized her Christlike work -- https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/charity-never-faileth?lang=eng&query=mother+teresa , here from Pres. Monson:

 

Mother Teresa, a Catholic nun who worked among the poor in India most of her life, spoke this profound truth: “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.”  The Savior has admonished, “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”  I ask: can we love one another, as the Savior has commanded, if we judge each other? And I answer—with Mother Teresa: no, we cannot.

*    *    *    *

 

I consider charity—or “the pure love of Christ”—to be the opposite of criticism and judging. In speaking of charity, I do not at this moment have in mind the relief of the suffering through the giving of our substance. That, of course, is necessary and proper. Tonight, however, I have in mind the charity that manifests itself when we are tolerant of others and lenient toward their actions, the kind of charity that forgives, the kind of charity that is patient.

I have in mind the charity that impels us to be sympathetic, compassionate, and merciful, not only in times of sickness and affliction and distress but also in times of weakness or error on the part of others.

There is a serious need for the charity that gives attention to those who are unnoticed, hope to those who are discouraged, aid to those who are afflicted. True charity is love in action. The need for charity is everywhere.

Needed is the charity which refuses to find satisfaction in hearing or in repeating the reports of misfortunes that come to others, unless by so doing, the unfortunate one may be benefited. The American educator and politician Horace Mann once said, “To pity distress is but human; to relieve it is godlike.”

Charity is having patience with someone who has let us down. It is resisting the impulse to become offended easily. It is accepting weaknesses and shortcomings. It is accepting people as they truly are. It is looking beyond physical appearances to attributes that will not dim through time. It is resisting the impulse to categorize others.

I am kind and compassionate to gays. But, I also run the strict hard line of knowing where the Lord stands on homosexuality and as such preach against it in defense for the church. How do you face a dragon like this when the push is for gay members to have every right as faithful married members? Its not right. Its also sad a nd a sign of the times where wrong shall become right. I will continue to stand for whats right.

[Robert F. Smith]

I am kind and compassionate to gays. But, I also run the strict hard line of knowing where the Lord stands on homosexuality and as such preach against it in defense for the church. How do you face a dragon like this when the push is for gay members to have every right as faithful married members? Its not right. Its also sad a nd a sign of the times where wrong shall become right. I will continue to stand for whats right.

No one is questioning your obligation to stand for the right, but that also obligates you to be righteous in your kindness and compassion, which means more than giving lip service, Rob.  See this extraordinary example, and tell me whether you can accept it:  http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64743-do-our-ward-and-stake-leaders-recognize-the-room-they-have-to-include/ .

 

It is easy to talk the talk, but can we walk the walk?

Edited January 4, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Rob Osborn]

No one is questioning your obligation to stand for the right, but that also obligates you to be righteous in your kindness and compassion, which means more than giving lip service, Rob.  See this extraordinary example, and tell me whether you can accept it:  http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64743-do-our-ward-and-stake-leaders-recognize-the-room-they-have-to-include/ .

 

It is easy to talk the talk, but can we walk the walk?

I am righteous in my kindness. Calling homosexuality a sin is not an unrighteous thing to do. Being compassionate to gays and preaching against homosexuality are two different things. Its like being compassionate to the crystal meth addict on the one hand and on the other hand fighting hard to teach others the harm and dangers involved. Thus, you can see, there is no difference.

[thesometimesaint]

There you go again. By their fruit ye shall know them.

 

Since theists actions are exactly the same as atheist. We do know both groups by their fruits.

[Robert F. Smith]

I am righteous in my kindness. Calling homosexuality a sin is not an unrighteous thing to do. Being compassionate to gays and preaching against homosexuality are two different things. Its like being compassionate to the crystal meth addict on the one hand and on the other hand fighting hard to teach others the harm and dangers involved. Thus, you can see, there is no difference.

You have failed to address the issue I raised: "See this extraordinary example, and tell me whether you can accept it:  http://www.mormondia...ave-to-include/ ."

What are specific ways in which you have been kind and compassionate toward gays?

Talk is cheap, Rob.

[Rob Osborn]

You have failed to address the issue I raised: "See this extraordinary example, and tell me whether you can accept it:  

http://www.mormondia...ave-to-include/ ."

What are specific ways in which you have been kind and compassionate toward gays?

Talk is cheap, Rob.

I have no problem with gay members attending church. Please come. But just because we welcome them in doesnt mean we are to welcome their lifestyle. And also- we will still continue to teach that homosexuality is an abomination.

I have a few extended family members who are gay and some of my neighbors. I show kindness to them by talking to them, sending them invitations to family activities, etc.just as I would with any other family member or friend. But I have also expressed my views on homosexuality with some of them and asked for some mutual respect. For instance- My brother in law had two roommates who were lesbians quite a few years ago. One day we were over there with our young son and they were making out on the couch as we waited for my brother in law. My wife politely asked them not to do that type of behavior around my son when we came over. They kindly obliged. Also, I never let my son go over to my brother in laws without me or my wife going also because of that incident. It was definitely more uncomfortable for them at the time but we perservered and we came to have a mutual respect for each other. I also later helped them move. I have had many ordinary interactions with gay people over the years and treat them no different than anyone else. But, I have also not let my guard down in trying to protect myself and family from the evil influences in the world. One of those is the growing trend to be or try homosexuality. Its a tool of the devil and as such, just like drugs, pornography, etc, I will continue to teach and preach against it both at home and in the community and in the church.

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.mormondia...ave-to-include/ ."

What are specific ways in which you have been kind and compassionate toward gays?

Talk is cheap, Rob.

I have no problem with gay members attending church. Please come. But just because we welcome them in doesnt mean we are to welcome their lifestyle. And also- we will still continue to teach that homosexuality is an abomination.

I have a few extended family members who are gay and some of my neighbors. I show kindness to them by talking to them, sending them invitations to family activities, etc.just as I would with any other family member or friend. But I have also expressed my views on homosexuality with some of them and asked for some mutual respect. For instance- My brother in law had two roommates who were lesbians quite a few years ago. One day we were over there with our young son and they were making out on the couch as we waited for my brother in law. My wife politely asked them not to do that type of behavior around my son when we came over. They kindly obliged. Also, I never let my son go over to my brother in laws without me or my wife going also because of that incident. It was definitely more uncomfortable for them at the time but we perservered and we came to have a mutual respect for each other. I also later helped them move. I have had many ordinary interactions with gay people over the years and treat them no different than anyone else. But, I have also not let my guard down in trying to protect myself and family from the evil influences in the world. One of those is the growing trend to be or try homosexuality. Its a tool of the devil and as such, just like drugs, pornography, etc, I will continue to teach and preach against it both at home and in the community and in the church.

 

Regardless of sex if two people are "making out" on my couch in front of me or mine. it is time for them to go get a room at a hotel.