Criticism Of Institute Program

[Rivers]

As much I loved institute, I agree with much of what this guy says.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Rivers

[Robert F. Smith]

Rio is very articulate and well-prepared to discuss this issue, even with his predilection to throw in "freakin" this or "freakin" that.  He will likely become a successful lawyer.

 

However, he is also very naive in thinking that (1) such individual courses could ever be constructed and offered, or that (2) CES instructors could be found capable of teaching such courses effectively.  There is only a handful of experts capable of doing that.

 

He is also confused about the function of apologetics.  He mentions Hugh Nibley while simultaneously suggesting that apologetics is a problem.  Yet he is unaware that Nibley himself had little patience for the CES, and he told a graduate assistant of his that he would never speak to him again if he got a graduate degree through CES (which includes BYU).

 

At the same time, some LDS Institutes (like the one across the street from the Graduate Theological Union/GTU in Berkeley) have very advanced discussions, and sponsor regular GTU classes, and heavy, non-CES seminars inside the Institute itself.  Change should indeed come, but the cadre does not yet exist by which to effect it.

[Rain]

I'm not sure what to think of that. I don't know who he is, but his demands and the way he criticizes turn me off. I admit this seems a little personal to me because the commissioner of CES was one of my best seminary teachers who had a real understanding not only of me who loved to attend seminary and other students who didn't attend. I saw nothing then and the limited amount I know of him since then leads me to believe that he is not in tune with the Lord in his calling, though he humbly would tell you he doesn't know it all.

Now I do believe in preemptive teaching - to some extent. I'll bring some things up with my children, but I don't see any reason to get heavy with it unless they wanted to know more. Two semesters on polygamy? There may be enough info to fill those classes, but I don't see a need for that much on an institute level. I think a semester of a variety of issues would be a better course.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Rain

[readstoomuch]

He would sound reasonable and then seem to go over the edge. He got a few things wrong. I think Brigham Young said that there were men on the moon and not Joseph Smith for one example.

Do saints his age need more teaching about the controversies, resources and good study methods-yes! I think many his age really don`t know how to sift through the documents and check sources. You hear the bad results of these problems when they rant on message boards. How much detail and how to go about the process is going to be a slow methodical process. A focus on study skills and resources wouldn`t be as controversial as incorporating the historical details into the lessons.

[Coreyb]

I have to say that I agree with much of what he says. I finally found an institute class that I enjoy and learn from, shout out to John Peterson at the U of U if anyone knows him. Unfortunately I had to search through MANY classes and instructors to find it. I suppose there is a reason why his class is full to overflowing every time I go, while almost every other class I attended with other instructors had only a handful of students. Brother Peterson teaches his lessons in full historical context and goes into detail on the most difficult of problem areas. Though I have to agree with Robert that such teaching will be near impossible to provide, especially in the far flung reaches of the Kingdom, this IS what my generation and the generation after me is going to need from CES programs. Otherwise we will lose many, many more youth of noble birthright. 

[Mystery Meat]

I am probably not the best person for this, but what the heck. I hate institute. I hate seminary. I hate sunday school. I hate pretty much any and all organized education. They are all "less effective" methods of teaching and learning. I went to two different Uni's for my post High School education. One was very well respected, the other...was average. Now, that school is over I get a lot of questions about how my experience differed at the two schools. My response always bothers people.

 

"My education at 'high-tier Uni' was just as worthless as my education at 'low-tier Uni.'" (warning do not say this to people who value how smart they are based on the number of degrees they have and where they went to school; it will seem as a personal attack on everything that they think gives them value and makes them better and smarter than other people).

 

So while I agree that Institute is largely a waste right now, I disagree with his solutions. If people need an organized, church sponsored, formal educational experience to meet their gospel educational needs, they are already in trouble. The Gospel is not something you can study academically. It can't be done. Real learning is done in family home evening...or living in the world...or in personal study...or in prayer...in any other number of authentic opportunities to learn that are personally tailored to one individual. Furthermore, while I have a pretty good understanding of issues about the problems of Church History, a class on the topic would be a total waste of time for me. Why? BECAUSE ELDER PACKER WAS RIGHT; SOME TRUTHS REALLY DONT MATTER.

 

Offer more Gospel themed classes such as Faith: What does it look like, and I might be tempted to take some of those types of classes. We are all different, but if someone needs a Church History class that talks about the BOA, Polygamy in Illinois, Peep Hats, etc. then I think they are not only missing the point, they are blind.

Edited November 28, 2014 by lvjd66

[Calm]

It would be nice to put a number of CES courses by different teachers online available to everyone, though the social aspect of gathering together to learn is very important.

[Avatar4321]

I couldn't disagree more. Institute is to help teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Polygamy is completely irrelevant to it nowadays.

I love institute if I could id still go

[Kenngo1969]

... I love institute if I could id still go

We have a Wednesday evening Institute class in my area for anyone who would like to attend.  I think this should be available in more areas, and I'll gladly join the revolution for anyone who wishes it would come to theirs!

[LinuxGal]

Offer more Gospel themed classes such as Faith: What does it look like, and I might be tempted to take some of those types of classes. We are all different, but if someone needs a Church History class that talks about the BOA, Polygamy in Illinois, Peep Hats, etc. then I think they are not only missing the point, they are blind.

 

1 Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

[Bob Crockett]

Never trust somebody who uses "magic quotes" with his hands to mock.   He does that every few seconds.  Bad karma, really.

 

Some of my best classes at BYU were in the Religion Department; the worst class I took was from a local businessman, who was a recently released mission president, who taught pre-missionary Book of Mormon and acted like he wanted to be somewhere else.

 

It is what you make of it, just like sitting through a talk in Sacrament meeting or General Conference.   Speakers get things wrong, they get them right. 

[readstoomuch]

He did do the hand thing as well as cutting back and forth as it was edited. There were parts that sounded sincere, but flippant also. Tools for researching and finding balance are good ideas.

[Freedom]

I understand his concerns but he completely misses the point of CES. He fails to consider that the purpose of CES was developed through careful consideration and direct revelation to the prophet from God himself. It just does not have the time or resources to provide these course. In most cases, there are only two classes available at any given time and they are centered on the canonized works. The summer classes will over something different. They are not university courses they are spiritual retreats from the demands of scholarship. Few people attend, and no married people attend, so how would these courses help the 32 year old mother of three who has these questions? 

 

But now that he has brought this issue up, why does he not get concerned about the problems with the biblical narrative? Why not have a course on Pauls views on women, or on the fall of David, or on explaining the story of the flood in relation to modern science? Or evolution, or a host of other topics. It would just go on for ever. Mental illness and testimony, learning disabilities and limitations of electronic media, church attendance and allergies...

[Senator]

 Polygamy is completely irrelevant to it nowadays.

 

 

So is human/child sacrifice.

 

But for some strange reason we continue to rehash the story. 

[Coreyb]

I understand his concerns but he completely misses the point of CES. He fails to consider that the purpose of CES was developed through careful consideration and direct revelation to the prophet from God himself. It just does not have the time or resources to provide these course. In most cases, there are only two classes available at any given time and they are centered on the canonized works. The summer classes will over something different. They are not university courses they are spiritual retreats from the demands of scholarship. Few people attend, and no married people attend, so how would these courses help the 32 year old mother of three who has these questions? 

 

But now that he has brought this issue up, why does he not get concerned about the problems with the biblical narrative? Why not have a course on Pauls views on women, or on the fall of David, or on explaining the story of the flood in relation to modern science? Or evolution, or a host of other topics. It would just go on for ever. Mental illness and testimony, learning disabilities and limitations of electronic media, church attendance and allergies...

I don't know where you got the idea that CES was formed by direct revelation to the prophet. In fact it is a good example of what some have called "bottom up" revelation (as opposed to top down).

[Freedom]

I don't know where you got the idea that CES was formed by direct revelation to the prophet. In fact it is a good example of what some have called "bottom up" revelation (as opposed to top down).

All programs in the church are instituted by revelation. Nothing is done in CES that is not first authorized by a prophet of God. The current mission of the CES program was created by the brethren and prepared over several months until the wording was as God intended. There is no evidence that the program was put in place by committee of employees. You would have to provide some evidence that the CES program is structured contrary to how every other program is put into place. When searching for your evidence, you will find yourself coming up short. 

[The Nehor]

All programs in the church are instituted by revelation. Nothing is done in CES that is not first authorized by a prophet of God. The current mission of the CES program was created by the brethren and prepared over several months until the wording was as God intended. There is no evidence that the program was put in place by committee of employees. You would have to provide some evidence that the CES program is structured contrary to how every other program is put into place. When searching for your evidence, you will find yourself coming up short. 

 

Please never get involved with CES too closely. I don't want that beautiful bubble burst. I say this despite believing it is a good program with generally good people running it but every class and piece of lesson material falls far short of perfect.

[mnn727]

Why do some people want their hand held and be spoon fed everything?

[stemelbow]

I think, by and large, he's right.

Maybe not the best presentation, but that doesn't matter.

Researching data and history is important. We act like, since faith is involved, that it's not important. That it can't be useful. I disagree. It's a good thing to lay the cards out and let people make of it what they will. It's a problem to avoid doing that. I agree, that the objectives set up for CES are incomplete and/or not helpful.

[theplains]

The video made a lot of sense. But one drawback of the CES (maybe at the direction of the LDS

leadership) is that it has not made available to the saints some of the significant writings of the

LDS leaders of the past (example, The Way to Perfection, The Voice of Warning, The Progress of

Man, Doctrines of Salvation, Journal of Discourses, etc).

 

Regards,

Jim

 

[Freedom]

Please never get involved with CES too closely. I don't want that beautiful bubble burst. I say this despite believing it is a good program with generally good people running it but every class and piece of lesson material falls far short of perfect.

I am quite closely involved with CES. I see the challenges with the curriculum but i am also very aware of how carefully it is monitored by the brethren and how much they are involved in the curriculum. I have been involved in discussion groups and research surveys and I was involved in small part with the recent revisions to the seminary program. Changing curriculum requires a lot of work. Each paragraph is reviewed and forwarded for approval. The changes to the program were presented by members of the quorum of the 12 and were dictated by them. 

[Kaleb Webb]

 

The video made a lot of sense. But one drawback of the CES (maybe at the direction of the LDS

leadership) is that it has not made available to the saints some of the significant writings of the

LDS leaders of the past (example, The Way to Perfection, The Voice of Warning, The Progress of

Man, Doctrines of Salvation, Journal of Discourses, etc).

 

Regards,

Jim

I don't know about most of those books, but almost every CES instructor I've had in the past throws Journal of Discourses under the bus if I ask them about it.

[rockpond]

As much I loved institute, I agree with much of what this guy says.

 

The problem is that if CES created classes they would likely reflect the type of sentiment that we read in the new gospel topics essays.  And, in my view, those essays aren't helping other than drawing more people to LDS.org through SEO.

 

I think that these "historical" issues (polygamy, race, issues with our founding narrative) will continue to haunt us as long as we continue to privilege the reputation of the early leaders above all else.  The Race and the Priesthood essay came the closest to a condemnation of past wrongs but, in my opinion, stopped short.

[Nofear]

I am probably not the best person for this, but what the heck. I hate institute. I hate seminary. I hate sunday school.

You may wish to bookmark this scripture:

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, Jeremiah 31:34

One of my favorites (though I frequently forget where it is). It does turn ears when in response to the standard question in Sunday School, "What does this scripture mean?", I might say something along the lines of, "It means that one day we won't have to sit through Sunday School!"

[Mystery Meat]

The problem is that if CES created classes they would likely reflect the type of sentiment that we read in the new gospel topics essays.  And, in my view, those essays aren't helping other than drawing more people to LDS.org through SEO.

 

I think that these "historical" issues (polygamy, race, issues with our founding narrative) will continue to haunt us as long as we continue to privilege the reputation of the early leaders above all else.  The Race and the Priesthood essay came the closest to a condemnation of past wrongs but, in my opinion, stopped short.

 

Because we don't know that it was wrong. That would be presumptuous of them to condemn the action itself (that was instituted in the name of God) without some revelation on the subject. You may claim to have such a revelation, but you aren't the one who would receive it on behalf of the Church.