Criticism Of Institute Program

[Mystery Meat]

You know it from first hand information?

 

Care to answer my questions then?

 

If they knew why did they wait until after the church entered a period of the greatest apostasy since Kirtland to start publicly dealing with it?  Was that the discussion that happened in the "highest places"... they decided:  hey, let's have Dehlin go out and lead the discussion on the thorniest of church issues first then we'll step in?

 

Don't know the answers to your questions. I could speculate (hint: not all truths matter), but I am not sure if that would help.

[rockpond]

Don't know the answers to your questions. I could speculate (hint: not all truths matter), but I am not sure if that would help.

 

Well, then I tend to not believe that collectively the 15 had really dealt with these issues.  You can fall back on "not all truths matter" but I can tell you from a ward leadership perspective that these truths do matter.  They are having very real impact on the lives of members of my ward who I care about.  They are wearing down my good Bishop who is struggling to counsel families that are being torn apart by differences in faith caused by these truths.

[Mystery Meat]

Well, then I tend to not believe that collectively the 15 had really dealt with these issues.  You can fall back on "not all truths matter" but I can tell you from a ward leadership perspective that these truths do matter.  They are having very real impact on the lives of members of my ward who I care about.  They are wearing down my good Bishop who is struggling to counsel families that are being torn apart by differences in faith caused by these truths.

 

They matter to some, no doubt about it. But I would bet dollars to donuts, they they have collectively dealt with these issues before and on more than one occasion. The Lord has remained silent on the issues is what I am left to assume.

[Freedom]

It is important to understand that the brethren are very well informed. They have their own research division who's job it is to both carry out research at their request and to advise on important issues. They are advised on politics, economics, plumbing, mental health, energy consumption, and history. They church carries out research all the time on why people leave and why people stay. If you have not been part of such a survey yet then it is just a matter of time. They receive and read letters that are sent by upset members, and they look into the issues with great care. They know the issues and they take them to the Lord. Having been in positions of leadership, I have a small understanding of the process they go through. There is this assumption that they are just a bunch of administrators. They are prophets, seers and revelators. They act through revelation, and they receive it on a daily basis. 

[rockpond]

The Lord has remained silent on the issues is what I am left to assume.

 

On that we agree.

 

I'm also betting that we agree that the proposed CES classes outlined in the OP are not the right move.  

[rockpond]

It is important to understand that the brethren are very well informed. They have their own research division who's job it is to both carry out research at their request and to advise on important issues. They are advised on politics, economics, plumbing, mental health, energy consumption, and history. They church carries out research all the time on why people leave and why people stay. If you have not been part of such a survey yet then it is just a matter of time. They receive and read letters that are sent by upset members, and they look into the issues with great care. They know the issues and they take them to the Lord. Having been in positions of leadership, I have a small understanding of the process they go through. There is this assumption that they are just a bunch of administrators. They are prophets, seers and revelators. They act through revelation, and they receive it on a daily basis. 

 

Alright then, any thoughts on why they waited so long to publish the essays?  If they are "ahead of the curve" in terms of knowledge of everything (as you suggest) then why do their actions seem to keep falling behind the curve?

[Mystery Meat]

On that we agree.

 

I'm also betting that we agree that the proposed CES classes outlined in the OP are not the right move.  

 

I am assuming we also agree that condemnation without further revelation would be entirely inappropriate.

[CV75]

Alright then, any thoughts on why they waited so long to publish the essays?  If they are "ahead of the curve" in terms of knowledge of everything (as you suggest) then why do their actions seem to keep falling behind the curve?

Who says they waited so long? Their actions only "seem to keep falling behind the curve"? Impatience and opinionated say-sos easily inspire some to quickly condemn the righteous.

 

I think the timing is simply the convergence of a divinely-guided threshold of technology, historical expertise, good judgment and demand, coupled with divinely inspired instructions – in other words, it is the Lord’s due time, and whether He is "ahead" or "behind" or 'just right" is only a matter of perception.

[rockpond]

I am assuming we also agree that condemnation without further revelation would be entirely inappropriate.

Yes and no. Does it require revelation to condemn something that was done in contradiction to revelation?

[rockpond]

Who says they waited so long? Their actions only "seem to keep falling behind the curve"? Impatience and opinionated say-sos easily inspire some to quickly condemn the righteous.

I think the timing is simply the convergence of a divinely-guided threshold of technology, historical expertise, good judgment and demand, coupled with divinely inspired instructions – in other words, it is the Lord’s due time, and whether He is "ahead" or "behind" or 'just right" is only a matter of perception.

Are you suggesting that the technology, expertise, judgement, and inspiration needed to produce such essays didn't exist until now? That seems to stand in contrast to what lvjd66 is saying from "first hand knowledge".

I think all those things have existed for quite some time. Which makes me wonder why they waited.

[Freedom]

Alright then, any thoughts on why they waited so long to publish the essays?  If they are "ahead of the curve" in terms of knowledge of everything (as you suggest) then why do their actions seem to keep falling behind the curve?

Any thoughts on why God still has not revealed the cure for cancer or malaria or earthquakes or hurricanes or SIDS? Is God just behind the curve? Why, I have to ask, is an essay giving some context to esoteric historical curiosities such a pressing issue for you but you seem unfazed by other huge gaps in our knowledge? I suspect these essays are Gods way of saying to the church leaders 'fine, if you insist, write a stupid essay if you think it will make things better'. But it won't and it hasn't. Those who leave will leave still and those who remain will remain still. 

[cinepro]

Any thoughts on why God still has not revealed the cure for cancer or malaria or earthquakes or hurricanes or SIDS? Is God just behind the curve? Why, I have to ask, is an essay giving some context to esoteric historical curiosities such a pressing issue for you but you seem unfazed by other huge gaps in our knowledge? I suspect these essays are Gods way of saying to the church leaders 'fine, if you insist, write a stupid essay if you think it will make things better'. But it won't and it hasn't. Those who leave will leave still and those who remain will remain still. 

 

It wasn't God who delayed in acknowledging the information in the essays. It was Church leaders.

 

If Church leaders had the cure for cancer or malaria or earthquakes or hurricanes or SIDS and similarly sat on it (or denied that these things even existed) for decades before finally making them public, then yeah, it might be a little disconcerting.

[rockpond]

Any thoughts on why God still has not revealed the cure for cancer or malaria or earthquakes or hurricanes or SIDS? Is God just behind the curve? Why, I have to ask, is an essay giving some context to esoteric historical curiosities such a pressing issue for you but you seem unfazed by other huge gaps in our knowledge? I suspect these essays are Gods way of saying to the church leaders 'fine, if you insist, write a stupid essay if you think it will make things better'. But it won't and it hasn't. Those who leave will leave still and those who remain will remain still.

I think we're meant to cope with our mortal frailties so I don't expect a cure for any of those diseases, tragedies, or calamities to be revealed.

What you refer to as esoteric historical curiosities are the details of our founding narrative. The same narrative that explains the restoration. I believe there has to be a way to teach those details that will help more to remain, rather than just tossing our hands up as if there is no solution. And I hope and pray for that since I'm tired of seeing the destruction of faith and family. I don't think those are causalities that we should be content to live with.

[CV75]

Are you suggesting that the technology, expertise, judgement, and inspiration needed to produce such essays didn't exist until now? That seems to stand in contrast to what lvjd66 is saying from "first hand knowledge".

I think all those things have existed for quite some time. Which makes me wonder why they waited.

I guess you overlooked the “convergence of a divinely-guided threshold”, the “the Lord’s due time”, and “demand [need]” parts; and no, it does not contradict lvjd66 (note “became all the rage” in his post) or his first-hand knowledge. Plus, I listed only a few factors; they are far from forming a comprehensive list.

 

They wait upon the Lord just as we are counseled to do (see links below), and act when so prompted. Not really much to wonder about there.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/waiting-upon-the-lord-thy-will-be-done?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/waiting-on-the-lord-renewing-our-strength?lang=eng

[Rain]

Are you suggesting that the technology, expertise, judgement, and inspiration needed to produce such essays didn't exist until now? That seems to stand in contrast to what lvjd66 is saying from "first hand knowledge".

I think all those things have existed for quite some time. Which makes me wonder why they waited.

I don't have any idea why they waited, but your question brings to mind an experience I had.

I've had a difficult time raising one of my children. I've prayed much over him. At one point the Spirit directed me to have one rule. For a couple of years I had that rule. Then, as I continued to pray the Spirit directed that I should now have the complete opposite rule. So I changed it and things went much better.

I spent time pondering over this. Why the change? Why have the first rule, especially when the second seemed to be more effective? Did I get revelation wrong with the first? After awhile the Spirit told me clearly, "you don't know my whole plan for him" with the impression both rules were right for him in the time they were given. Since then I have seen little signs of why Heavenly Father directed me to do the two opposite things.

So I have to go to what I have learned recently: Is this the right question to ask the Lord? Perhaps it is. Or perhaps we could ask, "What does the Lord want me to learn from the delay?" "What is happening now that makes this good timing?"

Huh. It just occurs to me that maybe the "what" questions are better than the "why" questions to ask the Lord MOST of the time, at least for me. When I have followed the instructions from those "what" questions the answers of "why" slowly trickle in.

[Freedom]

I think we're meant to cope with our mortal frailties so I don't expect a cure for any of those diseases, tragedies, or calamities to be revealed.

What you refer to as esoteric historical curiosities are the details of our founding narrative. The same narrative that explains the restoration. I believe there has to be a way to teach those details that will help more to remain, rather than just tossing our hands up as if there is no solution. And I hope and pray for that since I'm tired of seeing the destruction of faith and family. I don't think those are causalities that we should be content to live with.

The bible is also part of our region yet God has not revealed any of these details either. Why must we teach the history of polygamy but not the history of jesus as scholarship portrays him or the history of slavery among the ancient jews, or the sexist teachings of Paul. 

[rockpond]

I guess you overlooked the “convergence of a divinely-guided threshold”, the “the Lord’s due time”, and “demand [need]” parts; and no, it does not contradict lvjd66 (note “became all the rage” in his post) or his first-hand knowledge. Plus, I listed only a few factors; they are far from forming a comprehensive list.

 

They wait upon the Lord just as we are counseled to do (see links below), and act when so prompted. Not really much to wonder about there.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/waiting-upon-the-lord-thy-will-be-done?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/waiting-on-the-lord-renewing-our-strength?lang=eng

 

Nope, I haven't overlooked that the Lord may have wanted to wait.  I accept that as a possibility but if you accept that reasoning than you also have to accept that the Lord wanted the discussion to take place in other forums, outside of the guidance from our leaders before they joined the dialogue.  That's the part that I struggle to understand as I watch families in my stewardship be hurt by these issues.  I want to be able to say that I'm sure it's just the "Lord's timeline" but that gets hard to do while witnessing a marriage and family breaking apart because these issues caused a faith crisis in one spouse.

[rockpond]

The bible is also part of our region yet God has not revealed any of these details either. Why must we teach the history of polygamy but not the history of jesus as scholarship portrays him or the history of slavery among the ancient jews, or the sexist teachings of Paul. 

 

We don't have to teach anything.  I approach this from a pastoral view of how we teach to prevent and/or alleviate problems that our members are facing as a result of the issues that impact doctrine and faith.

[rockpond]

I don't have any idea why they waited, but your question brings to mind an experience I had.

I've had a difficult time raising one of my children. I've prayed much over him. At one point the Spirit directed me to have one rule. For a couple of years I had that rule. Then, as I continued to pray the Spirit directed that I should now have the complete opposite rule. So I changed it and things went much better.

I spent time pondering over this. Why the change? Why have the first rule, especially when the second seemed to be more effective? Did I get revelation wrong with the first? After awhile the Spirit told me clearly, "you don't know my whole plan for him" with the impression both rules were right for him in the time they were given. Since then I have seen little signs of why Heavenly Father directed me to do the two opposite things.

So I have to go to what I have learned recently: Is this the right question to ask the Lord? Perhaps it is. Or perhaps we could ask, "What does the Lord want me to learn from the delay?" "What is happening now that makes this good timing?"

Huh. It just occurs to me that maybe the "what" questions are better than the "why" questions to ask the Lord MOST of the time, at least for me. When I have followed the instructions from those "what" questions the answers of "why" slowly trickle in.

 

That's actually a great answer.  Thank you.

 

As difficult as it was, I learned a lot during my faith crisis.  I struggled.  I studied.  I prayed.  I grew.  All good things, right?

 

I guess now, serving as a counselor to a wonderful Bishop, I am just pained by some of what I see happening.  And while I want to believe that those individuals need to pass through the same struggles and experience their own growth, other things... like divorce and breaking up a family, are not so easily remedied.

[Tacenda]

That's actually a great answer.  Thank you.

 

As difficult as it was, I learned a lot during my faith crisis.  I struggled.  I studied.  I prayed.  I grew.  All good things, right?

 

I guess now, serving as a counselor to a wonderful Bishop, I am just pained by some of what I see happening.  And while I want to believe that those individuals need to pass through the same struggles and experience their own growth, other things... like divorce and breaking up a family, are not so easily remedied.

Rockpond, does your bishopric acknowledge those with FC?  It seems like my bishop and his counselors go out of their way to say "hello" to me, but stop short of asking how I'm doing as far as my testimony issues go.  I would think they know, since I've let my TR elapse w/o renewal and maybe, just maybe my SP, former Bishop, let them know I was struggling.  But nothing...I know.. complain, complain.  I'd complain if they did ask how my testimony problems were going wouldn't I haha.

 

But since you've been there, I thought you might be such an asset to the bishopric!  And if you know of others with FC, is some checking being done?     

[rockpond]

Rockpond, does your bishopric acknowledge those with FC?  It seems like my bishop and his counselors go out of their way to say "hello" to me, but stop short of asking how I'm doing as far as my testimony issues go.  I would think they know, since I've let my TR elapse w/o renewal and maybe, just maybe my SP, former Bishop, let them know I was struggling.  But nothing...I know.. complain, complain.  I'd complain if they did ask how my testimony problems were going wouldn't I haha.

 

But since you've been there, I thought you might be such an asset to the bishopric!  And if you know of others with FC, is some checking being done?     

 

My bishop doesn't use the "faith crisis" terminology.  But he doesn't need to.  He knows many of those in our ward who are struggling with, what he refers to as, a lack of testimony.  Doesn't matter to me what words are used to describe it.  Everyone is different anyway.  What is important is that he is aware and he counsels with them.  And we have planned some "fifth Sunday" lessons to help.

 

Right now it's tough to deal with at our level because, for many, the church produced essays aren't really providing any useful answers.  Or ways to deal with the cognitive dissonance.  And when I am speaking to a mixed crowd I prefer to err on the side of caution rather than reveal stuff that could create questions for others.

[Robert F. Smith]

I think we're meant to cope with our mortal frailties so I don't expect a cure for any of those diseases, tragedies, or calamities to be revealed.

What you refer to as esoteric historical curiosities are the details of our founding narrative. The same narrative that explains the restoration. I believe there has to be a way to teach those details that will help more to remain, rather than just tossing our hands up as if there is no solution. And I hope and pray for that since I'm tired of seeing the destruction of faith and family. I don't think those are causalities that we should be content to live with.

There will always be those who leave seeking something more appealing to them, for whatever reason, and they must be the final arbiters of their need to leave or stay.  I see no reason to be particularly troubled by the simple nature of reality in such instances.  None of us should be wringing our hands in torment over such defections.  They are a natural consequence of real free agency, and of the diversity of human concerns and views.

 

The LDS Church should not be seen as a failure when such people leave.  Indeed, such a dynamic church will tend to have a lot of coming and going, generating lots of controversy and lots of fervent inquiry.  We have to be willing to accept those casualities as part of the price of doing business, just as God has to accept the loss of 1/3 of his children.  We may weep about it, understandably, but it is in the nature of things for there to be losses.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[rockpond]

There will always be those who leave seeking something more appealing to them, for whatever reason, and they must be the final arbiters of their need to leave or stay.  I see no reason to be particularly troubled by the simple nature of reality in such instances.  None of us should be wringing our hands in torment over such defections.  They are a natural consequence of real free agency, and of the diversity of human concerns and views.

 

So we bear no responsibility for how we teach one another?  We don't need to be concerned for the anguish being caused by some of these issues?

 

The LDS Church should not be seen as a failure when such people leave.  Indeed, such a dynamic church will tend to have a lot of coming and going, generating lots of controversy and lots of fervent inquiry.  We have to be willing to accept those casualities as part of the price of doing business, just as God has to accept the loss of 1/3 of his children.  We may weep about it, understandably, but it is in the nature of things for there to be losses.

 

Sorry, the reality of my life, family, church stewardship, etc leads me away from such a laissez faire attitude.  I see us as duty bound to face the problems and work to resolve them.

[tonie]

My experience is that 90% - 95% of the troubling aspects of Church history have come from negative sources. I believe this has been the case for most people who encounter negative aspects of the Church.  I can see a need for the negatives to be addressed by Official Church sources. However, in my experience, the drawback is that such intellectual attempts are just that, intellectual; and unless someone willing to take the intellectual response and ponder and pray about it, then the intellectual response fails and is subject to an intellectual response.

 

Intellectual/apologetic approaches to what appears negatives, can be helpfull if:

 

1.  The intellectual/apologetic response isn't put forward as the ONLY response.

2.  The intellectual/apologetic response can acknowledge its own error.

3.  The individual seeking an "answer" understands that the intellectual/apologetic response is "adequate" for consideration.

4.  The individual seeking an "answer" prays and ponders upon all the "evidence".

[CV75]

Nope, I haven't overlooked that the Lord may have wanted to wait.  I accept that as a possibility but if you accept that reasoning than you also have to accept that the Lord wanted the discussion to take place in other forums, outside of the guidance from our leaders before they joined the dialogue.  That's the part that I struggle to understand as I watch families in my stewardship be hurt by these issues.  I want to be able to say that I'm sure it's just the "Lord's timeline" but that gets hard to do while witnessing a marriage and family breaking apart because these issues caused a faith crisis in one spouse.

Who said anything about the Lord wanting to wait? A superior article about waiting on the Lord is in the December 2014 Ensign, pp 16-19. ETA: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/12/young-adults/the-answer-to-all-the-hard-questions?lang=eng

 

Speaking of which (for example), someone who feels he has needed that article for years might ask, “Why did they wait so long to put that in the Ensign?” without asking himself why (or recognizing he needed to ask why) he didn’t pick up on other cues the Lord has provided all along, or whether he was doing what the Lord wanted him to do in the meantime.

 

Speaking of which (for example), how are you going to feel when you don’t have that stewardship anymore? How do you know you’re approaching your stewardship correctly, or with a helpful attitude? Stewardships are not easy, and are no more under our control than the choices of the souls we serve (“O that I were an angel…”). I do think the article above gets to the root of your questions.

Edited December 2, 2014 by CV75