Criticism Of Institute Program

[rockpond]

To blame the church for a broken marriage is wrong. If a person becomes disilussioned, it is his/her choice how to react to it. My brother-in-law has become disillusioned and left the church about two years ago. While he is angry at the church for certain things, he is still happily married to his active wife. If this scenario is different for others, it is because of personal reasons. Does the church teach us to leave our spouse if they leave the church?

In terms of policy or doctrine, no, I'm not aware of the church teaching is to leave a spouse if they leave the church. But have I heard of individuals feeling that they need to leave a marriage in favor of finding a spouse that would be temple and celestial kingdom worthy? Yes. Have I heard anecdotal stories of local priesthood leaders giving similar counsel? Yes.

But that wasn't what I was referring to... Do we often credit the church for strengthening marriages? I think so. Is it fair to only credit the church when it produces good results? When the church's actions cause faith crises that contribute to marriage dissolution, do we then not credit the church and place all blame on the couple? That would be a double standard.

[ERayR]

In terms of policy or doctrine, no, I'm not aware of the church teaching is to leave a spouse if they leave the church. But have I heard of individuals feeling that they need to leave a marriage in favor of finding a spouse that would be temple and celestial kingdom worthy? Yes. Have I heard anecdotal stories of local priesthood leaders giving similar counsel? Yes.

But that wasn't what I was referring to... Do we often credit the church for strengthening marriages? I think so. Is it fair to only credit the church when it produces good results? When the church's actions cause faith crises that contribute to marriage dissolution, do we then not credit the church and place all blame on the couple? That would be a double standard.

 

You can't let go gracefully can you.  You admit "I'm not aware of the church teaching is to leave a spouse if they leave the church" and then as you leave you take this swipe "When the church's actions cause faith crises that contribute to marriage dissolution, do we then not credit the church and place all blame on the couple?"  If the Church doesn't teach it how is it logical for you to blame the Church?

[rockpond]

Let me explain what I mean.

By "narrative" I mean our own personal perception (or narrative) of how it all works. Depending on that narrative you tell yourself, you will react to the church and its history in a myriad of different ways.

The way each person reacts to a given stimulus will vary greatly depending on that persons perspective. For example, let’s compare the way we react to a stimulus to a match. In the physical world, we need a surface that will generate enough friction to strike a match and cause it light; you might find it difficult if not impossible to ignite a match on a silk shirt pressed against your soft belly. In the emotional world, we don’t need any real friction to ignite the match; all we need is a perceived friction. I have witnessed the flare of a temper from a perceived friction in a relationship, later to humble myself at the realization that there was no friction at all. This example of the match shows how relative truth works; our perceptions create our realities which illicit real reactions.

Learning about "difficult" histories drastically alters the narrative for some people in a way that they are not able to recover from. It becomes too difficult to reconcile their old narratives with these new discoveries. Unwilling to alter their narrative slightly, they hold tightly to it while at the same time becoming antagonistic of it. They believe that their old narrative is the only possible narrative that a member could have. Either that, or they become the tireless apologist for their old narrative. A game I don't like to play. I simply accept that I don't know some things.

I had to alter my belief narrative to reconstruct my faith. Now I just have to contend with people here considering me apostate even though I'm quote active and faithful in the church.

[rockpond]

You can't let go gracefully can you. You admit "I'm not aware of the church teaching is to leave a spouse if they leave the church" and then as you leave you take this swipe "When the church's actions cause faith crises that contribute to marriage dissolution, do we then not credit the church and place all blame on the couple?" If the Church doesn't teach it how is it logical for you to blame the Church?

I was referring to things that church has done, taught, omitted, refused to condemn, etc that lead to faith crises for some... not, as you'll note from my post, referring to counsel to divorce which I believe is extremely rare.

[CV75]

I was referring to things that church has done, taught, omitted, refused to condemn, etc that lead to faith crises for some... not, as you'll note from my post, referring to counsel to divorce which I believe is extremely rare.

The "things that church has done, taught, omitted, refused to condemn" are a matter of perception and judgement. I'd say that more often than not, people allow judgmental misperception to send them into a faith crisis as much as anything else. The article I linked to is helpful in that it brings a more eternal perspective into the faith experience.

[rockpond]

The "things that church has done, taught, omitted, refused to condemn" are a matter of perception and judgement. I'd say that more often than not, people allow judgmental misperception to send them into a faith crisis as much as anything else. The article I linked to is helpful in that it brings a more eternal perspective into the faith experience.

The "things that church has done, taught, omitted, refused to condemn" are a matter of perception and judgement as well as fact and truth.

There, I fixed it.

But I sure did love when my faith was able to exist under a similar narrative as you appear to espouse.

[CV75]

The "things that church has done, taught, omitted, refused to condemn" are a matter of perception and judgement as well as fact and truth.

There, I fixed it.

But I sure did love when my faith was able to exist under a similar narrative as you appear to espouse.

Since my narrative espouses the principles in the article I linked to, I’m not sure how faith wouldn’t exist, preventing and addressing faith crises of all kinds. I’m not sure how more facts and truths would be prevented from coming forth or engendering greater faith.

[Rain]

I think this is the most important question facing the Church, those who stay and those who leave. My study of Church issues has shifted from the issues themselves to a study of different responses. Why can someone like me learn everything about the Church, have no negative response, and really not care or have it affect a testimony, while others have such a hard time with it.

What is the difference?

I've had this question for some time. It first came up when I found out a friend who had left the church had also felt angry and lied to about Santa.

I've wondered since then if it were a personality thing, or the way we are raised, or experiences with something in common? I suspect it is a host of things.

I worry about one of my children "finding out" about some things of the church. He takes on emotions of others and gets angry before thinking just what he is angry about. It takes him a long time to settle down and think things through logically.

What he probably won't remember is me telling him about some of these things - he doesn't listen some of the time and hears something completely different at other times. This isn't to say that all people with a FC are bad communicators - just why I worry about my own child.

[stemelbow]

We certainly recognize personal agency but let's not pretend that we (church members and leaders, generally) consider church membership and atheism to be equivalent alternatives.

Nobody pretended that in the least.

[stemelbow]

I didn't say that faith crises always cause marriages to end. That certainly would be false.

There are tons of factors, quite often as to why marriages split and families break apart. You suggested the Church should shoulder blame when families do when faith crises are involved. I don't think it's fair to blame the Church for this. The cause an effect doesn't quite work seeing as we know there are families and marriages that remains strong even with faith crises. And it's also probably premature to blame the Church for faith crises to begin with.

[rockpond]

Since my narrative espouses the principles in the article I linked to, I’m not sure how faith wouldn’t exist, preventing and addressing faith crises of all kinds. I’m not sure how more facts and truths would be prevented from coming forth or engendering greater faith.

 

I realize that it is difficult for you to understand the faith crises that I and others have been through.  I don't know how to effectively communicate it here since you seem more interested in defending a particular position (which is, of course, understandable given the nature of these boards).

[rockpond]

There are tons of factors, quite often as to why marriages split and families break apart. You suggested the Church should shoulder blame when families do when faith crises are involved. I don't think it's fair to blame the Church for this. The cause an effect doesn't quite work seeing as we know there are families and marriages that remains strong even with faith crises. And it's also probably premature to blame the Church for faith crises to begin with.

 

I suggested that the Church should shoulder its share of the blame under the principle that we can't correct a problem until we acknowledge it.

 

Yes, some people/marriages/families survive crises of faith.  My wife and I are one of those.  But to the extent that the Church's actions/inactions lead to faith crises and to the extent that those faith crises jeopardize marriages and other familial relationships, we as a church ought to accept any part played in that and work to remedy.

[ERayR]

The "things that church has done, taught, omitted, refused to condemn" are a matter of perception and judgement as well as fact and truth.

There, I fixed it.

But I sure did love when my faith was able to exist under a similar narrative as you appear to espouse.

 

An example of a faith crisis: 

Matthew 14:22-33New International Version (NIV) Jesus Walks on the Water

²² Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. ²³ After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone, ²⁴ and the boat was already a considerable distance from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.

²⁵ Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. ²⁶ When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

²⁷ But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

²⁸ “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

²⁹ “Come,” he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. ³⁰ But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

³¹ Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

³² And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. ³³ Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

 

Notice Jesus didn't say whoops sorry you had trouble with walking on water so I will change the water so you will be able to walk on it, instead he said:  “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”  The problem is internal (within yourself) not external.

[stemelbow]

I suggested that the Church should shoulder its share of the blame under the principle that we can't correct a problem until we acknowledge it.

 

Yes, some people/marriages/families survive crises of faith.  My wife and I are one of those.  But to the extent that the Church's actions/inactions lead to faith crises and to the extent that those faith crises jeopardize marriages and other familial relationships, we as a church ought to accept any part played in that and work to remedy.

What part?

[Rain]

Notice Jesus didn't say whoops sorry you had trouble with walking on water so I will change the water so you will be able to walk on it, instead he said: “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?” The problem is internal (within yourself) not external.

While I agree that much of the "problem" is internal we can't forget that none of the leaders are perfect except for Christ.

I think of cutting off the soldier's ear in Gethsemene. Not a perfect leader. Yes, Christ stepped in and fixed things, but in that short time between the soldier was still in pain and bleeding.

Some of our members are in pain now. To dismiss this as all internal doesn't help them heal.

Then again it also doesn't help things to heal by placing blame anywhere. Instead, if we are not in FC or are responsible for those who are then we should be looking how to heal them and if we are in FC then we should be doing things to increase our faith (not just researching history) to be ready to be healed.

[rockpond]

An example of a faith crisis: 

Matthew 14:22-33New International Version (NIV) Jesus Walks on the Water

²² Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. ²³ After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone, ²⁴ and the boat was already a considerable distance from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.

²⁵ Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. ²⁶ When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

²⁷ But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

²⁸ “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

²⁹ “Come,” he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. ³⁰ But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

³¹ Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

³² And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. ³³ Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

 

Notice Jesus didn't say whoops sorry you had trouble with walking on water so I will change the water so you will be able to walk on it, instead he said:  “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”  The problem is internal (within yourself) not external.

 

Yes, that is one example.

[rockpond]

While I agree that much of the "problem" is internal we can't forget that none of the leaders are perfect except for Christ.

I think of cutting off the soldier's ear in Gethsemene. Not a perfect leader. Yes, Christ stepped in and fixed things, but in that short time between the soldier was still in pain and bleeding.

Some of our members are in pain now. To dismiss this as all internal doesn't help them heal.

Then again it also doesn't help things to heal by placing blame anywhere. Instead, if we are not in FC or are responsible for those who are then we should be looking how to heal them and if we are in FC then we should be doing things to increase our faith (not just researching history) to be ready to be healed.

 

Amen.

[ERayR]

While I agree that much of the "problem" is internal we can't forget that none of the leaders are perfect except for Christ.

I think of cutting off the soldier's ear in Gethsemene. Not a perfect leader. Yes, Christ stepped in and fixed things, but in that short time between the soldier was still in pain and bleeding.

Some of our members are in pain now. To dismiss this as all internal doesn't help them heal.

Then again it also doesn't help things to heal by placing blame anywhere. Instead, if we are not in FC or are responsible for those who are then we should be looking how to heal them and if we are in FC then we should be doing things to increase our faith (not just researching history) to be ready to be healed.

 

I did not say nor think to dismiss anything.Internal problems need help to fix them but until one can acknowledge the source of the problem it can not be fixed. 

[rockpond]

What part?

 

As I said, where actions or inaction by the Church leaders/members contributed to a faith crisis that caused severe marital strife. 

[ERayR]

Yes, that is one example.

 

It is analogous of our walk through mortality.  It is usually perilous at best with the constant possibility of sinking beneath the waves and as long as we do not loose our faith we can stay on top.  It is when we lose our faith we sink and maintaining our faith is our responsibility. 

[rockpond]

It is analogous of our walk through mortality.  It is usually perilous at best with the constant possibility of sinking beneath the waves and as long as we do not loose our faith we can stay on top.  It is when we lose our faith we sink and maintaining our faith is our responsibility. 

 

All true.

 

Do you believe that as a church (generally, leaders & members) we can do things that help to create and grow faith in individuals?

 

And, is the corollary of that also true... that we can do things that serve to decrease and/or destroy faith?

[stemelbow]

As I said, where actions or inaction by the Church leaders/members contributed to a faith crisis that caused severe marital strife.

So if a member says something offensive to someone else that is the Church's fault?

[CV75]

I realize that it is difficult for you to understand the faith crises that I and others have been through.  I don't know how to effectively communicate it here since you seem more interested in defending a particular position (which is, of course, understandable given the nature of these boards).

I’m sorry—I wasn’t approaching this subject as being about you, who is anonymous and cannot be properly understood on a personal level. But I can discuss principles.

 

You propose that the Church undermines faith, and you asked for perspectives on how and what it can teach to counter that. So I bring up the article, which you seem to like except for one facet of “Principle 2,” the leaders, and whether one can have faith in the principles if he has problems with the leaders who teach them.

 

The article plainly shows how the leaders are not the “be-all and end-all.” But anyone is free to conclude that they (unlike oneself, perhaps) sometimes do not teach under the inspiration of heaven, or that they sometimes contribute to “every wind of doctrine,” or that sometimes their collective guidance will not help us “all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.” Anyone is free to conclude that this is sufficient to generate a faith crisis, even given all else he knows and has faith in. Anyone is free to conclude that the leaders must fix themselves before the offended can heal and offenses be prevented, but of course you were asking for another perspective.

[rockpond]

So if a member says something offensive to someone else that is the Church's fault?

 

No.

[rockpond]

I’m sorry—I wasn’t approaching this subject as being about you, who is anonymous and cannot be properly understood on a personal level. But I can discuss principles.

 

You propose that the Church undermines faith, and you asked for perspectives on how and what it can teach to counter that. So I bring up the article, which you seem to like except for one facet of “Principle 2,” the leaders, and whether one can have faith in the principles if he has problems with the leaders who teach them.

 

The article plainly shows how the leaders are not the “be-all and end-all.” But anyone is free to conclude that they (unlike oneself, perhaps) sometimes do not teach under the inspiration of heaven, or that they sometimes contribute to “every wind of doctrine,” or that sometimes their collective guidance will not help us “all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.” Anyone is free to conclude that this is sufficient to generate a faith crisis, even given all else he knows and has faith in. Anyone is free to conclude that the leaders must fix themselves before the offended can heal and offenses be prevented, but of course you were asking for another perspective.

 

It isn't about me.  But it does need to be understood from the perspective of people, not just principles.

 

Do you understand how a faith crisis can be earth shattering for a person?  Have you ever personally witness the impact that it can (and does) have on marriages?

 

If so, can you admit that "the Church" (meaning past and present governing levels of leadership) have represented teachings, history, and doctrine in ways that have now created faith crises for church members?

 

If you can't honestly answer "yes" to those questions, I'm not sure how to help you understand unless you're willing to seriously drop some walls.  I know, for myself, 20 years ago I never would have been able to answer "yes" to that last question.