Immigration: The Mormon Cognitive Dissonance

[Stone holm]

So we believe in obeying the law of the land and being subject to civil government.  Pres. Uchtdorf has met with and shown support for Obama's immigration reform.  So where exactly does a Mormon who wants to be consistent land on this subject.  Undocumented aliens are reputedly one of the fastest growing demographic units in the Church.  We have special routes for undocumented aliens to enter the mission field.  Historically tight immigration policies have worked against the Church, tightened immigration was one of the reasons the Church abandoned the physical gathering to Zion in favor of a spiritual gathering and "grow where you are planted" policy.  Yet many Mormons want tough immigration policies and want the undocumented aliens deported.  Where do you stand?

[cinepro]

It's a tough situation, because who wants to look at a fellow Church member (or ward member!) and support their forceful removal from this country? 

 

I much prefer to support the deportation of people I don't know or have much in common with.

[JLHPROF]

As a 2 time immigrant (England->Canada->USA) I think the laws are far too strict and the application processes far too cumbersome and expensive.

 

Ironically, the "strict immigration laws" would have been totally denounced as evil in the early days of the Church.  I mean Brigham did institute the perpetual immigration fund to get as many immigrants as possible, and they sent people to Mexico and Canada to have families which then often moved back as immigrants.

(Romney sound familiar?)

Any law that was seen to be government opposition to the laws of the Gospel usually got denounced (yeah, Edmunds-Tucker, I mean you).

So laws that prevented people from practicing the Law of the Gathering would have been denounced (or like polygamy in the 1870's & 1880's would have been ignored anyway).

 

There used to be a long standing tradition in scripture and the early Church of ignoring/violating any law that was seen to conflict with the law of God (Daniel, 3 Hebrews in the firey furnace, Joseph Smith performing unlicensed marriages, John Taylor and polygamy)...the list goes on.  Somewhere along the line we decided it was better to make the law of God conform to the law of the land.  I don't think we'll ever see the day when the Church openly defies an anti-gospel law again.

 

So since we no longer believe in (or at least no longer advocate) a literal gathering to the United States, immigration laws are a non-issue in the Church.  Personally, I still think they go against God's law.

Edited April 17, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Kenngo1969]

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject:

 

http://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/lds-and-immigration/

[CV75]

Where do you stand?

RE: US immigration issues, my stand is to work within the constraints and loopholes of the law where it is clear, and to seek leniency and reform where it is not, with an eye toward preserving family units and giving as many people as possible access to the Gospel and its blessings.

[strappinglad]

I am torn. When the US gets illegals it also gets a large burden to provide health care and education etc. Now there is a cry to give drivers licenses and other IDs which can be used to scam the systems and influence directly or indirectly the political processes. We have folks using the examples of " hard working immigrants " who just want to make a better life, but there are quite a number of immigrant criminals who just want to make a better buck.

The 'life boat' is getting full. We are not there yet but could soon be, and as the demographics change , society will change.

The Church seems to want to err on the side of compassion. I suppose the Church could excommunicate speeders and parking scofflaws also.

[DaddyB]

The immigration issue has two major problems. The first one is the scarcity mentality that wants to eliminate competition for jobs. That is a complete fallacy. People are assets to the economy, not liabilities.

 

The other problem is our socialistic system. Those politicians who want complete control, who believe that all the wealth of the country belongs to the government, which gives the wise and powerful politicians the right to decide how to distribute the wealth, see more poor and dependant people in the country as a boost to their power. The more people who will vote for dependency on government gives them political power.

 

If we had a real immigration policy in this country that screened out criminals and allowed easy access to immigrating to good hard working people, That would solve the illegal problem. If we went back to a constitutional capitalistic free market economy it wouldn't matter how many people immigrated. It would only add fuel to the economic fire and fuel a healthy booming economy.

[Stone holm]

It is my understanding that the Church sends missionaries who are undocumented aliens and go on missions directly to the mission field without going to the MTC first, I suppose thar avoids INS raids on the MTC.

[BCSpace]

Where do you stand?

 

 

With the Church, by and large, on the Utah Compact whose principles are mostly in direct opposition to the philosophy of the current US administration and the US Senate majority; particularly those items which I have highlighted:

 

FEDERAL SOLUTIONS Immigration is a federal policy issue between the U.S. government and other countries—not Utah and other countries. We urge Utah’s congressional delegation, and others, to lead efforts to strengthen federal laws and protect our national borders. We urge state leaders to adopt reasonable policies addressing immigrants in Utah.

 

LAW ENFORCEMENT  We respect the rule of law and support law enforcement’s professional judgment and discretion. Local law enforcement resources should focus on criminal activities, not civil violations of federal code. 

 

FAMILIES  Strong families are the foundation of successful communities. We oppose policies that unnecessarily separate families. We champion policies that support families and improve the health, education and well-being of all Utah children.

 

ECONOMY  Utah is best served by a free-market philosophy that maximizes individual freedom and opportunity. We acknowledge the economic role immigrants play as workers and taxpayers. Utah’s immigration policies must reaffirm our global reputation as a welcoming and business-friendly state.

 

A FREE SOCIETY  Immigrants are integrated into communities across Utah. We must adopt a humane approach to this reality, reflecting our unique culture, history and spirit of inclusion. The way we treat immigrants will say more about us as a free society and less about our immigrant neighbors. Utah should always be a place that welcomes people of goodwill.

 

http://www.utahcompact.com/

 

 

Where I diverge from the Church is on local law enforcement.  As long as the Federal government refuses to enforce the law or adequately enforce the law, the responsibility for doing so in this case should fall to the states at their discretion.

[Storm Rider]

It is my understanding that the Church sends missionaries who are undocumented aliens and go on missions directly to the mission field without going to the MTC first, I suppose thar avoids INS raids on the MTC.

 

Do you have any evidence for that accusation?  I have never heard of it and would like to read from a reputable source.

[Storm Rider]

I do not support unhindered immigration in the world today.  The process should be made less onerous, but are borders should be legitimate borders.  I think I could support a modified process for those immigrants who have come to the US illegally, but have become productive participants in our society.  I would place significant financial consequences on employers who use illegal aliens.

 

I abhor the processes in the Middle East for tracking all individuals who work in the country; a constant need for documentation, reporting, etc., but I because individuals will always attempt to illegally immigrate it is required.

 

Yes, I favor deportation.

[BCSpace]

We want to welcome people if they come and knock on our front door and not those who come in through the widow.

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 10:1

 

The solution is to:

 

1. Seal the borders and ports of entry from illegal immigration.  Allow normal immigration of course.

2. Enforce the law on companies and individuals who hire illegals.

3. Allow those already here to sign up as if they were at the border for whatever work visa/permit is necessary.

4. Amend the Constitution (preferably) or change the law so that automatic citizenship is not granted to anyone born to someone here illegally.

5. Constitutional naturalization begins only when and as long as someone is legally here (no amnesty).

 

Nothing should be done about #3 until #1 is accomplished because that has been promised over and over and not done.

Edited April 18, 2014 by BCSpace

[Pahoran]

I'm not an American, so I don't have a dog in this fight. That said:

1) I think borders should be solid realities, not merely guidelines or suggestions. The US should make it harder to get into the country illegally.

2) Coupled with that, the US should make it easier to get into the country legally. This would weaken the incentive to try to enter illegally at the same time as making it more difficult.

3) Whatever measures are taken to deal with those who are already "within the doors," the first order of business ought to be to secure the borders; then sort out those who already entered.

4) Presuming that some degree of immigration enforcement is going to happen: I realise it is politically incorrect to say so, but "racial profiling" of suspected illegal immigrants is just sensible. Sorry. Not only are the possible illegals mostly of a particular ethnicity (there aren't a lot of Swedes, for example, swimming the Rio Grande) so are those who shelter them.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Coreyb]

Do you have any evidence for that accusation?  I have never heard of it and would like to read from a reputable source.

There were two missionaries I served with who were undocumented and did not go to the mtc. I don't have any documents to prove it though, so you will just have to take my word for it.

[Danzo]

It is my understanding that the Church sends missionaries who are undocumented aliens and go on missions directly to the mission field without going to the MTC first, I suppose thar avoids INS raids on the MTC.

 

I Don't think your understanding is correct.  The church sends undocumented aliens to the MTC.  I Personally know two that went to MTC.

[Danzo]

With the Church, by and large, on the Utah Compact whose principles are mostly in direct opposition to the philosophy of the current US administration and the US Senate majority; particularly those items which I have highlighted:

 

 

Where I diverge from the Church is on local law enforcement.  As long as the Federal government refuses to enforce the law or adequately enforce the law, the responsibility for doing so in this case should fall to the states at their discretion.

Why should the states be enforcing federal civil law?  I don't see cops pulling people over for income tax evasion (much more common than immigration law violation)

[Danzo]

 

2. Enforce the law on companies and individuals who hire illegals.

 

 

Kind of goes against the idea of small government and the free market.

[Danzo]

:

 

1. Seal the borders and ports of entry from illegal immigration.  Allow normal immigration of course.

 

 

militarizing the boarder is also anti small government.

[Danzo]

 

4. Amend the Constitution (preferably) or change the law so that automatic citizenship is not granted to anyone born to someone here illegally.

 

 

how many generations would it take?

 

Should everyone have their four generations on hand to prove they are legitimate?

[Danzo]

4) Presuming that some degree of immigration enforcement is going to happen: I realise it is politically incorrect to say so, but "racial profiling" of suspected illegal immigrants is just sensible. Sorry. Not only are the possible illegals mostly of a particular ethnicity (there aren't a lot of Swedes, for example, swimming the Rio Grande) so are those who shelter them.

 

 

You might be supprised.

 

I personally know 2 germans, a frenchman and an australian that lived here illegally.

 

They had no problems because they weren't the "type" that people were worried about.

[Tacenda]

I'm not an American, so I don't have a dog in this fight. That said:

1) I think borders should be solid realities, not merely guidelines or suggestions. The US should make it harder to get into the country illegally.

2) Coupled with that, the US should make it easier to get into the country legally. This would weaken the incentive to try to enter illegally at the same time as making it more difficult.

3) Whatever measures are taken to deal with those who are already "within the doors," the first order of business ought to be to secure the borders; then sort out those who already entered.

4) Presuming that some degree of immigration enforcement is going to happen: I realise it is politically incorrect to say so, but "racial profiling" of suspected illegal immigrants is just sensible. Sorry. Not only are the possible illegals mostly of a particular ethnicity (there aren't a lot of Swedes, for example, swimming the Rio Grande) so are those who shelter them.

Regards,

Pahoran

I have a dog in this fight. My daughter married an illegal immigrant, a former bishop officiated.

I'm all for tightening the borders, if they had, maybe my son in law and his family wouldn't have risked their lives to get here and caused hardship in marrying my daughter and the restrictiveness it has caused. But that's life, and it could be any one of us that have a son or daughter fall in love with an illegal immigrant.

We first hired a lawyer in the early years of their marriage but got cold feet worrying if he'd ever return after going back to the Mexican consulate. Now we are attempting it again with a different lawyer several years later, we held off hoping for a path that would make it so he wouldn't have to go back beforehand.

There's a big push from the attorney to show that my daughter would suffer a lot of hardship if my son in law was deported. These aren't the old days where one only need to marry and they automatically get the green card. It would be easier had my son in law came through the front door. But back when he came over he was a young adult, just out of high school. And his brother, sister and father came also.

He works hard, never broke any laws. He would be an ideal citizen. Always helping whenever he can. He's an autobody man, and has fixed a few of our vehicles. A good husband and father to our grandsons. I hope all will work out...trying not to get cold feet again.

I'm thankful the church doesn't want deportation and separating families, I can't imagine what my grandsons would go through. My fear is if he did get deported, my daughter would probably have to move to Mexico. That would kill me, the area my SIL is from is certainly not Cabo San Lucas, or a really nice area of Mexico.

Now all we need is for congress to do something, good ole'Obama is atleast trying.

[Duncan]

We want to welcome people if they come and knock on our front door and not those who come in through the widow.

 

 

The solution is to:

 

1. Seal the borders and ports of entry from illegal immigration.  Allow normal immigration of course.

2. Enforce the law on companies and individuals who hire illegals.

3. Allow those already here to sign up as if they were at the border for whatever work visa/permit is necessary.

4. Amend the Constitution (preferably) or change the law so that automatic citizenship is not granted to anyone born to someone here illegally.

5. Constitutional naturalization begins only when and as long as someone is legally here (no amnesty).

 

Nothing should be done about #3 until #1 is accomplished because that has been promised over and over and not done.

 

 

in regards to number 2 you'd be sanctioning half the membership in LA I swear!!! I knew TONS of folks who hired day labourers

[Danzo]

I have a dog in this fight. My daughter married an illegal immigrant, a former bishop officiated.

I'm all for tightening the borders, if they had, maybe my son in law and his family wouldn't have risked their lives to get here and caused hardship in marrying my daughter and the restrictiveness it has caused. But that's life, and it could be any one of us that have a son or daughter fall in love with an illegal immigrant.

We first hired a lawyer in the early years of their marriage but got cold feet worrying if he'd ever return after going back to the Mexican consulate. Now we are attempting it again with a different lawyer several years later, we held off hoping for a path that would make it so he wouldn't have to go back beforehand.

There's a big push from the attorney to show that my daughter would suffer a lot of hardship if my son in law was deported. These aren't the old days where one only need to marry and they automatically get the green card. It would be easier had my son in law came through the front door. But back when he came over he was a young adult, just out of high school. And his brother, sister and father came also.

He works hard, never broke any laws. He would be an ideal citizen. Always helping whenever he can. He's an autobody man, and has fixed a few of our vehicles. A good husband and father to our grandsons. I hope all will work out...trying not to get cold feet again.

I'm thankful the church doesn't want deportation and separating families, I can't imagine what my grandsons would go through. My fear is if he did get deported, my daughter would probably have to move to Mexico. That would kill me, the area my SIL is from is certainly not Cabo San Lucas, or a really nice area of Mexico.

Now all we need is for congress to do something, good ole'Obama is atleast trying.

 

 

I know what you are going through, hang in there.

 

The current US immigration laws are just plain evil, they are anti marriage, anti family and support corruption.

 

I can't see how any LDS (or christian for that matter) who understands the immigration laws could support them.

 

While I can imagine immigration laws that would make sense, such laws are not found in current US code.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Danzo

[Storm Rider]

I know what you are going through, hang in there.

 

The current US immigration laws are just plain evil, they are anti marriage, anti family and support corruption.

 

I can't see how any LDS (or christian for that matter) who understands the immigration laws could support them.

 

While I can imagine immigration laws that would make sense, such laws are not found in current US code.

 

I am curious.  What do you think an immigration policy that is righteous, pro-marriage, supportive of families, law, and order look like?  

[Stone holm]

Do you have any evidence for that accusation?  I have never heard of it and would like to read from a reputable source.

Yes. My son is in the Bishopric in a Spanish speaking Ward, he is responsible for helping them get through the various medical records hoops.